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Old
09-22-2012, 08:27 PM
  #126
LeafsRReady
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
He did realize that a new CBA was coming.

He also realized that Bettmans job during CBA negotiations is to PROTECT the owners, not screw them over.

I'm still trying to imagine those owners spending all that money on Bettman, losing all that money locking the players out for an entire season, and then having Bettman work AGAINST them in negotiations.

It just doesn't make sense and it's not going to happen.
So if the cap circumvention deals work to the benefit of 10 owners but the disadvantage of the other 20, who should Gary Bettman be trying to protect?

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09-22-2012, 08:29 PM
  #127
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I wish someone would tell us these new rules.

Why do some people think they are speaking gospel when the book hasn't been written yet?

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09-22-2012, 08:30 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by LeafsRReady View Post
Yeah, it's kind of hard to argue that if you are paying a guy 9M per it's not fair that he counts for 9M against the cap.

Can I tell CRA I'm not going to pay HST at 13% because when I negotiated my last raise I didn't know they were going to harmonize GST and PST and make me pay it on services that were previously exempt from PST?
As Kovy get's older, his hockey skills will decrease with age. This is due to wear and tear on his muscles, bones, and ligaments. For example, if you look at a very old man, he can not move around nearly as quickly as he could when he was in his 20's.

You with me so far?

Ok.

So, New Jersey decided to offer Kovy less money as he gets older (because his skill in hockey will decrease as he gets older... see above for further details). Kovy will make the most money right now, while he is still in his prime. Makes sense to me.

So then they simply averaged out his yearly salary over the next 15 years, and they came to the cap hit of 6.6 million.

It all seems simple and logical to me.

It the league doesn't want such lengthy contracts (and I understand why they wouldn't) they simply need to fix the loophole.
But Bettman can't and won't punish owners who used a Bettman created cba to legally sign players.

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09-22-2012, 08:33 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by LeafsRReady View Post
So if the cap circumvention deals work to the benefit of 10 owners but the disadvantage of the other 20, who should Gary Bettman be trying to protect?
He will fix the loophole (thus keeping the other 20 happy) and provide an out for those manipulated by loophole (thus keeping the other 10 happy).

Similar to what happened in the previous cba.

Simple really...

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09-22-2012, 08:35 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I wish someone would tell us these new rules.

Why do some people think they are speaking gospel when the book hasn't been written yet?
A belief that cap circumvention goes against the rules of the league and that some action needs to be taken to prevent it.

Hope that's good enough for you.

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09-22-2012, 08:36 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I wish someone would tell us these new rules.

Why do some people think they are speaking gospel when the book hasn't been written yet?
No gospel.

Just pointing out common sense.

If someone were to say "Bettman will grab a machine gun and shoot all of the owners" I will simply point out that "that is not likely to happen".

Similarly, if someone were to say "Bettman will screw over the very GM's that pay him and are siding with him throughout this very expensive lockout" I will simply say "that is not likely to happen".

He will be looking for solutions somewhere in the middle. Screwing over 1/3rd of the owners he's paid to defend is not high up on his agenda.
It may not be "gospel". But it certainly is common sense.

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09-22-2012, 08:41 PM
  #132
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How many contracts are you saying are cap circumvention?

What is the maximum length of contract in the new CBA?

Will this new maximum length be applied to existing contracts?

Will teams be allowed to demote players and the Cap hit to the AHL?

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09-22-2012, 08:50 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
A belief that cap circumvention goes against the rules of the league and that some action needs to be taken to prevent it.

Hope that's good enough for you.
Ok Mr Burke.....it was not against any rules as the contracts were very legal within the CBA and approved by the NHL.

If the owners are now seeking to changes this rule it will not be retroactive as it was not against any rule of the league.

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09-22-2012, 08:53 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
No gospel.

Just pointing out common sense.

If someone were to say "Bettman will grab a machine gun and shoot all of the owners" I will simply point out that "that is not likely to happen".

Similarly, if someone were to say "Bettman will screw over the very GM's that pay him and are siding with him throughout this very expensive lockout" I will simply say "that is not likely to happen".

He will be looking for solutions somewhere in the middle. Screwing over 1/3rd of the owners he's paid to defend is not high up on his agenda.
It may not be "gospel". But it certainly is common sense.
The good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one.

There's some Vulcan common sense for you. :smile:

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09-22-2012, 09:45 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Ok Mr Burke.....it was not against any rules as the contracts were very legal within the CBA and approved by the NHL.

If the owners are now seeking to changes this rule it will not be retroactive as it was not against any rule of the league.
If the teams did not plan to circumvent the cap then the new rules shouldn't concern them.

Why are you in such a tizzy?

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09-22-2012, 10:05 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
As Kovy get's older, his hockey skills will decrease with age. This is due to wear and tear on his muscles, bones, and ligaments. For example, if you look at a very old man, he can not move around nearly as quickly as he could when he was in his 20's.

You with me so far?

Ok.

So, New Jersey decided to offer Kovy less money as he gets older (because his skill in hockey will decrease as he gets older... see above for further details). Kovy will make the most money right now, while he is still in his prime. Makes sense to me.

So then they simply averaged out his yearly salary over the next 15 years, and they came to the cap hit of 6.6 million.

It all seems simple and logical to me.

It the league doesn't want such lengthy contracts (and I understand why they wouldn't) they simply need to fix the loophole.
But Bettman can't and won't punish owners who used a Bettman created cba to legally sign players.
I'm pretty sure I'm keeping up with what you are saying plus what you are neglecting to say - that being that both NJD and Kovie know he won't play the last 3 years for 1M per year so it's not really a true cap hit of 6.6M per. The real intent of the deal is 12 years at 8.3M per but that's AOK because it's logical to you that the cap only count as 6.6M per.

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09-22-2012, 10:11 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
The same league that just fined one of their teams 250,000 dollars?
The league didn't sign off on a contract with that owner, approving of his comments, and then punish him for those comments a few years later.
Very different.

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09-22-2012, 10:15 PM
  #138
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There are no cap circumvention contracts. All contracts have been approved. This cap circumvention term was made up by Brian Burke. All existing contracts have been approved by the NHL head office.

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09-22-2012, 10:17 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
The league didn't sign off on a contract with that owner, approving of his comments, and then punish him for those comments a few years later.
Very different.
But the league is willing to allow teams to continue to sign deals that make a mockery of the SPIRIT of the CBA just hours before they come crying poor?

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09-22-2012, 10:20 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
If the teams did not plan to circumvent the cap then the new rules shouldn't concern them.

Why are you in such a tizzy?
When the league thought that owners WERE trying to circumvent the cap, they PUNISHED the team.

When the league thought that the owners WEREN'T trying to circumvent the cap, they signed off on the contract.

Everyone of the current "cap circumventing" contracts were approved by the league.
When the league didn't approve the Kovy contract, they fined the team.

It's all very simple...

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09-22-2012, 10:22 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
But the league is willing to allow teams to continue to sign deals that make a mockery of the SPIRIT of the CBA just hours before they come crying poor?
I believe that the owners and the league will stand together claiming that it's the nhlpa and agents that are looking for those deals, and are pitting the owners against each other.

Fixing the loophole will help ALL of the owners.

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09-22-2012, 10:24 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
When the league thought that owners WERE trying to circumvent the cap, they PUNISHED the team.

When the league thought that the owners WEREN'T trying to circumvent the cap, they signed off on the contract.

Everyone of the current "cap circumventing" contracts were approved by the league.
When the league didn't approve the Kovy contract, they fined the team.

It's all very simple...
NJ was punished for blatant cap intervention.

Having a rule that ensures that teams and players live up to the contract that they both signed is not punishment.

Learn the difference.

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09-22-2012, 10:26 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
There are no cap circumvention contracts. All contracts have been approved. This cap circumvention term was made up by Brian Burke. All existing contracts have been approved by the NHL head office.
It's bad enough you guys put together ridiculous arguments but do you really have to flat out lie?

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09-22-2012, 10:27 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by LeafsRReady View Post
I'm pretty sure I'm keeping up with what you are saying plus what you are neglecting to say - that being that both NJD and Kovie know he won't play the last 3 years for 1M per year so it's not really a true cap hit of 6.6M per. The real intent of the deal is 12 years at 8.3M per but that's AOK because it's logical to you that the cap only count as 6.6M per.
Kovy will be old at that time, and will probably only deserve getting paid 1 million dollars. If he opps to retire, that's his choice. That's how Jersey will spin it, within the confines of the cba.
I agree that both Kovy and the Devils are exploiting a loophole.
I'm sure it will be corrected in the next cba.

But the league eventually agreed to the contract. So they can't and won't punish the Devils for that agreed upon contract. If the cba is altered so as to create a dramatic disadvantage for an agreed upon contract, the teams will be given some "outs".
Again, it's Bettmans job to PROTECT these owners in his cba negotiations. Not punish them.
It's also what happened in the last cba.

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09-22-2012, 10:34 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
NJ was punished for blatant cap intervention.

Having a rule that ensures that teams and players live up to the contract that they both signed is not punishment.

Learn the difference.
It IS punishment.
The old cba was made in a way that Kovy's contract wouldn't be much of a burden for the Devils in 15 years. With the way the salary cap was increasing every year, Kovy's 6.6 million likely wouldn't be an albatross in 15 years. Even if he was putting up just like 10 goals as a 38 year old.

But if a new CBA dramatically decreases the salary cap, it would dramatically hurt the devils, and every other team with long term investments in players.

Being that Bettman WORKS for these owners, and that these owners are curerntly losing money locking players out in support of Bettmans negotiations, I really really doubt he's going to punish his bosses for their long term investment in players.
He will fix the loophole. And he will provide "outs" for those teams that were manipulated by the loophole.

It won't be too long till we see the new cba.
I can't wait to see you guys spin your way around it.

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09-22-2012, 10:40 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I believe that the owners and the league will stand together claiming that it's the nhlpa and agents that are looking for those deals, and are pitting the owners against each other.
Did you miss the SN lockout special?

They came right out and said that when MIN was questioned about the Parise and Suter signings they simply said "That was last week".

No since no lawsuit has been filed I'm going to take that as true.

That is BS. Then add in the salary rollback Owners are flirting with and if it isn't colusion, then what the hell is it? They are definitly using insider information to further their position. Singing a COntract in good faith while Knowing a salary rollback is a key demand? That is just wrong.

Quote:
Fixing the loophole will help ALL of the owners.
I just want the loophole fixed.

In 2005 I pointed out how these contracts could benifit the poor teams, but now no one is willing to let things run the course. PLus FLA threw a wrench into hte whole works.


TRading contracts like Briere's to teams like Florida should have worked but the timing just didn't jive. Whatever emerges from this just has to be even less advantageous to the rich teams.

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09-22-2012, 10:46 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
It's bad enough you guys put together ridiculous arguments but do you really have to flat out lie?
Brian Burke testified against the NJ Devils and brought forth the cap circumvention term to the media. Learn up.

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09-22-2012, 11:09 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
It IS punishment.
The old cba was made in a way that Kovy's contract wouldn't be much of a burden for the Devils in 15 years. With the way the salary cap was increasing every year, Kovy's 6.6 million likely wouldn't be an albatross in 15 years. Even if he was putting up just like 10 goals as a 38 year old.

But if a new CBA dramatically decreases the salary cap, it would dramatically hurt the devils, and every other team with long term investments in players.

Being that Bettman WORKS for these owners, and that these owners are curerntly losing money locking players out in support of Bettmans negotiations, I really really doubt he's going to punish his bosses for their long term investment in players.
He will fix the loophole. And he will provide "outs" for those teams that were manipulated by the loophole.

It won't be too long till we see the new cba.
I can't wait to see you guys spin your way around it.
Those teams already got what they wanted i.e. the player they wanted at a low cap hit. Why do you want them to get more?

Bettman has been warning teams about those contracts, he isn't their cheerleader.

Once again, learn the facts.

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09-22-2012, 11:14 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Those teams already got what they wanted i.e. the player they wanted at a low cap hit. Why do you want them to get more?

Bettman has been warning teams about those contracts, he isn't their cheerleader.

Once again, learn the facts.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Do you have your spin prepared for when the inevitable happens?
For someone who tries to see the bright side of Burke's reign of terror... this type of spin should be easy.

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09-23-2012, 12:07 AM
  #150
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Do you have your spin prepared for when the inevitable happens?
For someone who tries to see the bright side of Burke's reign of terror... this type of spin should be easy.
This has absolutely nothing to do with Brian Burke, but thanks for trying I guess.

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