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Devellano on Bettman, owners, players aka grazing cattle (UPD: NHL fines Wings)

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Old
09-23-2012, 10:26 PM
  #51
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I like the insinuation in what he said that the owners are doing the players a favor by employing them and paying them big money. Like they aren't doing it to make money and like the demand for top level hockey competition isn't what actually drives their business and in the end the salaries of the players.

Do these 30 clowns and their henchmen really think that if they died tomorrow there would be no hockey in North America? Some of them probably do given that their ego about their role in hockey has been passed down from previous generations of egomaniacs.

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09-23-2012, 10:59 PM
  #52
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Yeah, I think if another league is going to challenge the NHL - and please let it happen - it will be a league in Europe. The standard of living is good, the fan support is no problem, and if you can get some big sponsors on board you could probably create a really good 12-16 team league. I think there's too much instability with the Russian teams for the KHL to be a viable alternative.
Fan support IS the problem. They don't average 18k/game over there. More like 6K.

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09-24-2012, 12:21 AM
  #53
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Junior hockey is quite a drop. Even college hockey.
I live in A2, so there are options with UofM and USNTP 5-10 minutes from my door. But they're a far cry from NHL caliber.
agreed.

i tried to get into the lower level leagues during the last lockout but i just couldn't do it. it's simply not the same as watching nhl players

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09-24-2012, 12:21 AM
  #54
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Amen. Yet another reason for me to hate the Preds and Coyotes.
Anyone ever given any thought to the idea that maybe the NHL put teams and keep teams in bad hockey markets exactly for this reason?

They've got a poster boy for every lockout.

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09-24-2012, 01:13 AM
  #55
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agreed.

i tried to get into the lower level leagues during the last lockout but i just couldn't do it. it's simply not the same as watching nhl players
Besides. I work long hours. I relax by firing up the internet and blowing off steam while watching hockey on TV.
I;m not really into re-arranging my schedule to pay money to watch kids play while drinking hot chocolate and eating stale popcorn.

If i had a regular 9 to 5 job, I probably would try to catch some USNTP games though... just to test my scouting prowess. 2005 was fun in that regard...

And I'd give myself a B- on scouting that draft.

Guys i liked from that draft
First round:
Jack Johnson - obv
Jack Skille -- boo, thought he was a stud.
Ryan Stoa - Thought he was a big, Primeau-esque center Booo

Second Round
Niklas Hjalmarsson -- Looked like a complete player
Mikko Lehtonen -- looked like Robert Lang

Third Round
Pettersson -- I'd describe him as a cross between Helm and Zetterberg

Fourth Round
Reto Berra -- Big giant goalie who made great saves
Nathan Gerbe - Tiny guy who was almost always the best player on the ice
Tomi Leinonen -- Thought he'd be a solid defensive guy
Pertuu Lindgren -- Seemed like a solid two-way forward

Fifth Round
Justin Mercier - Seemed to me like a Kirk Maltby type
Johan Nilsson -- A little like Pettersson, but not as good
Mark Mitera - Solid stay-at-home guy (wrong draft year!)

Sixth Round
Dario Burglar -- Fast winger with a great shot
Johan Dalgren - Choppy skater, but had that powerforward thing going.

Seventh
Alexander Hellstrom -- Big, meanish defenseman


Had I been in charge of the draft table that day with my limited scouting:
We got -------- We would have Drafted
Kindl ----------- Ryan Stoa
Abelkader ------ Nicklas Hjalmarsson
Lofberg --------- Mikko Lehtonen
Ritola ------------ Reto Bera
Ryno ------------- Nathan Gerbe
May -------------- Justin Mercier
Mielonen --------- Johan Nilsson
Stamler ----------- Dario Burglar

I based my whole scouting on one tournament that year, and truthfully, I think I would have outdrafted the Wings that year...

Hjalmarrsson is way better Kindl.
I'd give Helm the edge over Gerbe, but maybe not by as much as some might think. Abs gets the nod over Stoa, though I think Stoa still has some room.

Where I think I still have the Wings beat is my blind faith in Petterson, my inkling about Berra, still, and the outside shot that Mercier still has.

Lehtonen is in the KHL - not sure he has the skating to be an NHLer. Or the work ethic.

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09-24-2012, 07:29 AM
  #56
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what an absolute piece of garbage devellano is

"there you go master illitch, should i bend over now or later?"

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09-24-2012, 07:57 AM
  #57
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The cattle/ranch analogy works for me.

But instead of seeing it just as owners "letting" the cattle eat at the ranch, it should be clear that a ranch with no cattle is pretty meh. After all, that's the ranch's business. Dealing in cattle.
Yeah, why don't the owners go out and dance around on the ice? Without the "Cattle" they have zero attraction.

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Old
09-24-2012, 09:28 AM
  #58
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That fine seems a bit excessive, especially when you consider the fines handed out to the players/coaches when they say/do something deemed "illegal".

True or false, idiotic or not, Devellano should have been free to give his opinion on these matters without facing that sizable fine.

Personally, I think pretty much everything he said is true, except that the players should be "grateful". That's a bunch of bull.

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09-24-2012, 09:41 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Junior hockey is quite a drop. Even college hockey.
I live in A2, so there are options with UofM and USNTP 5-10 minutes from my door. But they're a far cry from NHL caliber.
Honestly after living in Halifax for a few year I've come to enjoy junior hockey a lot more, especially in a market where people treat it as the big ticket in town. Hell of a lot cheaper and it's refreshing to see players who are there to play before the big paychecks start getting to their heads.

I would have thought people would have been glad at the prospect of the season being nuked considering how **** the Wings were set to be this year.

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Old
09-24-2012, 06:32 PM
  #60
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Welp, you really don't get any more hardline than that. Cattle? "They should be grateful to be here"? Man...

Pretty much confirms my absolute worst fears about this lockout. Enjoy the silence, folks; this is going to be long and ugly.

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Old
09-25-2012, 05:46 AM
  #61
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How stupid the players can be?

"We are not going to take that 9% drop in salaries, we are ready to sit a 1 or 2 seasons for not taking that deal."

Freaking morons, that's just a pure bluff.

They are ready to lose more money in 1-2 seasons, that to lose that 9% that DOES NOT EFFECT ANYTHING TO THEIR QUALITY OF LIVING. And even though the show would be cancelled for 1-2 seasons, I guarantee the players won't get even that 50% anymore after those years, because of the lost profits from the owner side. The owners wan't those losses back and waiting for 1-2 years, could get the players share lowered to 40% or even to 33%.

Idiots. There are no winners at players side in this war.

I just can't believe reading that bullchit. First I'm laughhin, then I'm crying.

How idiot can those guys be? Take that freaking lowered money, and let's GAME ON! It's still huge millions for christ sakes. And people in the arenas are getting unemployed. God I hate this when millionaries get fighting against billionares, greed against greed, and the poor people who work for the show, are the only sufferers. :mad:

The owners will ALWAYS be the leading force, who will say how big share everybody will get from the pie.

Period.

Period.

Period.

It's the players who take what is given and that's it. I'm so totally full of that greedy ****.

I know, owners are idiots, and they are greedy ******** too, but they are the Gods who build the business and players just have to accept that.

There's no choises, stop acting like idiots. The owners are the king of the hill. Take the money, be humble, and let's drop the puck in the ice. It's still the sport you love, forget the freaking money.

Devellano said nothing but a pure truth, in a stupid way, but a pure truth.


Last edited by Henkka: 09-25-2012 at 05:55 AM.
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Old
09-25-2012, 06:28 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
How stupid the players can be?

"We are not going to take that 9% drop in salaries, we are ready to sit a 1 or 2 seasons for not taking that deal."

Freaking morons, that's just a pure bluff.

They are ready to lose more money in 1-2 seasons, that to lose that 9% that DOES NOT EFFECT ANYTHING TO THEIR QUALITY OF LIVING. And even though the show would be cancelled for 1-2 seasons, I guarantee the players won't get even that 50% anymore after those years, because of the lost profits from the owner side. The owners wan't those losses back and waiting for 1-2 years, could get the players share lowered to 40% or even to 33%.

Idiots. There are no winners at players side in this war.

I just can't believe reading that bullchit. First I'm laughhin, then I'm crying.

How idiot can those guys be? Take that freaking lowered money, and let's GAME ON! It's still huge millions for christ sakes. And people in the arenas are getting unemployed. God I hate this when millionaries get fighting against billionares, greed against greed, and the poor people who work for the show, are the only sufferers. :mad:

The owners will ALWAYS be the leading force, who will say how big share everybody will get from the pie.

Period.

Period.

Period.

It's the players who take what is given and that's it. I'm so totally full of that greedy ****.

I know, owners are idiots, and they are greedy ******** too, but they are the Gods who build the business and players just have to accept that.

There's no choises, stop acting like idiots. The owners are the king of the hill. Take the money, be humble, and let's drop the puck in the ice. It's still the sport you love, forget the freaking money.

Devellano said nothing but a pure truth, in a stupid way, but a pure truth.
In Finland, Boss says lick the floor, and the Finnish say "Yes Sir!"

They are the king of the Hill and everyone else just does what they want.

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Old
09-25-2012, 07:43 AM
  #63
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In Finland, Boss says lick the floor, and the Finnish say "Yes Sir!"

They are the king of the Hill and everyone else just does what they want.
Nah, only in city called Tampere .

Sorry had to .

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09-25-2012, 09:01 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
I like the insinuation in what he said that the owners are doing the players a favor by employing them and paying them big money. Like they aren't doing it to make money and like the demand for top level hockey competition isn't what actually drives their business and in the end the salaries of the players.

Do these 30 clowns and their henchmen really think that if they died tomorrow there would be no hockey in North America? Some of them probably do given that their ego about their role in hockey has been passed down from previous generations of egomaniacs.
And it would take at least a decade for that new league to develop to pay the players what they're getting now...

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09-25-2012, 10:21 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
How stupid the players can be?

"We are not going to take that 9% drop in salaries, we are ready to sit a 1 or 2 seasons for not taking that deal."

Freaking morons, that's just a pure bluff.

They are ready to lose more money in 1-2 seasons, that to lose that 9% that DOES NOT EFFECT ANYTHING TO THEIR QUALITY OF LIVING. And even though the show would be cancelled for 1-2 seasons, I guarantee the players won't get even that 50% anymore after those years, because of the lost profits from the owner side. The owners wan't those losses back and waiting for 1-2 years, could get the players share lowered to 40% or even to 33%.

Idiots. There are no winners at players side in this war.

I just can't believe reading that bullchit. First I'm laughhin, then I'm crying.

How idiot can those guys be? Take that freaking lowered money, and let's GAME ON! It's still huge millions for christ sakes. And people in the arenas are getting unemployed. God I hate this when millionaries get fighting against billionares, greed against greed, and the poor people who work for the show, are the only sufferers. :mad:

The owners will ALWAYS be the leading force, who will say how big share everybody will get from the pie.

Period.

Period.

Period.

It's the players who take what is given and that's it. I'm so totally full of that greedy ****.

I know, owners are idiots, and they are greedy ******** too, but they are the Gods who build the business and players just have to accept that.

There's no choises, stop acting like idiots. The owners are the king of the hill. Take the money, be humble, and let's drop the puck in the ice. It's still the sport you love, forget the freaking money.


Devellano said nothing but a pure truth, in a stupid way, but a pure truth.
Actually they do have a choice. They could decertify the union and burn the league's entire economic structure to the ground. It's the nuclear option and it wouldn't be good for the players (well, not most of them anyway) OR the owners (although a few might like it), but it's a theoretical possibility.

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Old
09-25-2012, 10:46 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
I know, owners are idiots, and they are greedy ******** too, but they are the Gods who build the business and players just have to accept that.
No Ayn, they're just businessmen.

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09-25-2012, 10:48 AM
  #67
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And it would take at least a decade for that new league to develop to pay the players what they're getting now...
I think he was speaking about the owners and the value of their individual contributions, not starting a new league from scratch.

Capital is capital is capital...

There is only one Pavel Datsyuk.

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Old
09-25-2012, 12:00 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by icKx View Post
I think he was speaking about the owners and the value of their individual contributions, not starting a new league from scratch.

Capital is capital is capital...

There is only one Pavel Datsyuk.
Sort of and while they fight about it we flush some of his last years away. But the real factor is most of these owners have shelf lives of however long they will still be alive. Then generally their family will get it or sell it off for a chunk. It is in their interest to always protect their asset, either for re-sale or best possible scenario for family members that get the team next.

The real truth you're missing and a lot of the players arguments and Devellano got pretty well, is there are 690 jobs. There are 30 owners, they will be around barring death or financial collapse while all those jobs change. There was only one Steve Yzerman, Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe also, the beat goes on. Will I miss Datsyuk? Sure, but I think when people make this argument it overlooks the fact there is also only one MacKinnon, Jones, Monahan or Barkov. That next wave is coming.

The real staggering number is once the players have lost something like 20 games even with their own proposal which would never happen, they have lost money for the entire term of the deal. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense and I would have thought they would have learned from the last time around, or at least the 20% of players that were active then would be a lot more vocal about how stupid this idea is.

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09-25-2012, 12:15 PM
  #69
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Sort of and while they fight about it we flush some of his last years away. But the real factor is most of these owners have shelf lives of however long they will still be alive. Then generally their family will get it or sell it off for a chunk. It is in their interest to always protect their asset, either for re-sale or best possible scenario for family members that get the team next.

The real truth you're missing and a lot of the players arguments and Devellano got pretty well, is there are 690 jobs. There are 30 owners, they will be around barring death or financial collapse while all those jobs change. There was only one Steve Yzerman, Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe also, the beat goes on. Will I miss Datsyuk? Sure, but I think when people make this argument it overlooks the fact there is also only one MacKinnon, Jones, Monahan or Barkov. That next wave is coming.

The real staggering number is once the players have lost something like 20 games even with their own proposal which would never happen, they have lost money for the entire term of the deal. It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense and I would have thought they would have learned from the last time around, or at least the 20% of players that were active then would be a lot more vocal about how stupid this idea is.
Meh.
At the end of the day, I care about Datsyuk or Yzerman more than Illitch -- and I say that knowing Ilitch is pretty much the best team owner a fan can ask for.
Bottom line, if Ilitch sold the team tomorrow and they started sucking, I'd still probably watch the team and I'd be watching the players.

The owners? Could care less. More often than not, they're just leeching off the game.

And people need to understand... that when you give back 20 percent today... you're giving back 20 percent over every year of your contract. Even if you're a UFA, you're going to be starting negotiations from a 20 percent lower discount.

Look at Nick Lidstrom, when he went from $10M to $7.6M. How much did that lockout cost him?

Probably $2.4M or so for 2-3 years. Probably an average of $2M a year for the rest of his career.
So you're looking at $14M lost for Lidstrom.

Had Goodenow not been such a chump, maybe the PA would have won that and saved Lidstrom $14M. Instead he lost $14M + 7..6M.

So... yeah... this idea that the players start losing in a month is nonsense..

If the players win and avoid a 20 percent give back, it's worth quite a bit.


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09-25-2012, 12:48 PM
  #70
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Meh.
At the end of the day, I care about Datsyuk or Yzerman more than Illitch -- and I say that knowing Ilitch is pretty much the best team owner a fan can ask for.
Yep. Any good will I feel toward Ilitch he earned only through association with players we all loved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
The real truth you're missing and a lot of the players arguments and Devellano got pretty well, is there are 690 jobs. There are 30 owners, they will be around barring death or financial collapse while all those jobs change. There was only one Steve Yzerman, Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr and Gordie Howe also, the beat goes on. Will I miss Datsyuk? Sure, but I think when people make this argument it overlooks the fact there is also only one MacKinnon, Jones, Monahan or Barkov. That next wave is coming.
By the same token it doesn't really matter which faceless wallet signs the paychecks. Beat goes on. But because the owners aren't dependent on their labor they get to stay in the money-making game far, far longer.


Last edited by icKx: 09-25-2012 at 12:54 PM.
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09-26-2012, 11:38 AM
  #71
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No Ayn, they're just businessmen.

It'd be nice to have a time machine so Rand could be forced to take some population genetics courses, as a starter, and then possibly something about man being a social animal. (Social in the sense of the absolute requirement to live in a community.)

Standing on the shoulders of those that came before.

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09-26-2012, 01:05 PM
  #72
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Meh.
At the end of the day, I care about Datsyuk or Yzerman more than Illitch -- and I say that knowing Ilitch is pretty much the best team owner a fan can ask for.
Bottom line, if Ilitch sold the team tomorrow and they started sucking, I'd still probably watch the team and I'd be watching the players.
If you look at it that way (players vs Ilitch) it's easy, but what about the players vs the Detroit Red Wings team? I think it's safe to say most of us here care more for the team than any of the players. We all love Yzerman for what he did in the Winged Wheel. If Datsyuk, Zetterberg, et al. all went over to play for some team in Russia would you become a fan of that team and follow them? I don't think so, but maybe... Personally I have zero desire to watch Dynamo or wherever Datsyuk ends up playing, or watching any of the European teams to see these guys play. The owners have the teams which is what most of the fans care about, it's the trump card.

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09-26-2012, 01:29 PM
  #73
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I can't will myself to watch the AHL, NCAA or lower level sports leagues. I love the NFL (well right now I hate it) but I absolutely despise college football. I love the NBA but you couldn't get me to watch college basketball if you paid me.

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09-26-2012, 02:07 PM
  #74
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If you look at it that way (players vs Ilitch) it's easy, but what about the players vs the Detroit Red Wings team? I think it's safe to say most of us here care more for the team than any of the players. We all love Yzerman for what he did in the Winged Wheel. If Datsyuk, Zetterberg, et al. all went over to play for some team in Russia would you become a fan of that team and follow them? I don't think so, but maybe... Personally I have zero desire to watch Dynamo or wherever Datsyuk ends up playing, or watching any of the European teams to see these guys play. The owners have the teams which is what most of the fans care about, it's the trump card.
Maybe that's a difference we have.
The true test is this. If a new league started tomorrow with all of the current Red Wings joining a new Detroit team... and the Detroit Red Wings started tomorrow with 2nd rate talent, what would you watch?

People might pretend they'd watch the Red Wings over the new product, but I think they're kidding themselves.

When great products go bad, customers stop buying -- no matter how much tradition is in involved.

Me? I watched CSKA the other day on the internet. I'm not going to start watching Russian hockey like a big slappy though.

But I wonder, if they had english speaking announcers. And more top quality players.... I might just change my mind a little bit

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09-26-2012, 02:45 PM
  #75
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Had Goodenow not been such a chump, maybe the PA would have won that and saved Lidstrom $14M. Instead he lost $14M + 7..6M.

So... yeah... this idea that the players start losing in a month is nonsense..

If the players win and avoid a 20 percent give back, it's worth quite a bit.
except that they will not win. When have the players of any of the major professional sports ever won a labor dispute in recent times?

fehr might be brainwashing guys like cleary into thinking that they will win if they hold out for a year, but in reality the owners hold all the cards.

I think the players are banking on the winter classic as being the reason why the owners will cave but i just don't see it happening. Unfortunately i think the winter classic is going to be the sacrifice we have to take in order for there to be a season this year

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