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The Official New Arena Thread: Part 3 "Hell In A Cell Match"

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Old
09-22-2012, 03:54 PM
  #101
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so what do you want Replacement. what are the other options. it's an obvious stalemate here. What can and should be done? The clock is ticking.

bottom line the way I look at it is that we secure the future of the Oilers in Edmonton, and basically Katz, by getting himself this sweetheart deal, collecting all the extra revenues and such, will allow for him to continually spend as much as ever necessary to keep players in town and the team itself to remain competitive.

The city is rapidly expanding, the economy - robust, and seems as though it should continue on that trend for the foreseeable future. If it means we have to line a billionaires pockets a little extra and give in to what he's asking, contribute tax dollars and such, I'm all for it. I just want the bloody thing built.
Its a complex question, and deserves an answer, but the City, and Katz, have made some fundamental mistakes in this all along. The City for instance sat by while Northlands was cut out of the equation. I don't know that wouldve been my stance to agree to that. Next, Katz, who is looking at the city as partner to front everything is the same guy that refused any co-ownership with any of the EIG that wanted to continue investing and who bought out the EIG in what could even be described as a take over bid. The same Katz now is crying for increased subsidy and funding from his loan partner in this.

sigh.

In a pie in the sky world what I would want is somebody with deep pockets believing in this city willing to really fund this in a meaningful way like the Thompson family did in Winnipeg. But alas this doesn't seem to exist here.

My next want would be for some of the Oil and Gas consortiums who do multibillion buck business here to start acting like a corporate partner in the province and area in which they do business. For instance how much does Gazprom contribute to KHL. Why do we never see this kind of thing here?
Basically this is a gas company in Russia realizing that in order for people to want to live in many of the cities in which they require workers to relocate there should be something to do and watch there. Alas we get no contribution like that here and I don't know that any of our political leaders even go out fishing for it. Peter Lougheed would have. That man could see the quality of life big picture for Albertans. RIP
As a province we should start putting some more demands on the business that take billions our of our province. jmo

So in short I want other partners involved. Katz and the city at least should be kicking tires for that. But Katz wants ALL revenue and no money up front. No wonder he has money.

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09-22-2012, 04:00 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Its a complex question, and deserves an answer, but the City, and Katz, have made some fundamental mistakes in this all along. The City for instance sat by while Northlands was cut out of the equation. I don't know that wouldve been my stance to agree to that. Next, Katz, who is looking at the city as partner to front everything is the same guy that refused any co-ownership with any of the EIG that wanted to continue investing and who bought out the EIG in what could even be described as a take over bid. The same Katz now is crying for increased subsidy and funding from his loan partner in this.

sigh.

In a pie in the sky world what I would want is somebody with deep pockets believing in this city willing to really fund this in a meaningful way like the Thompson family did in Winnipeg. But alas this doesn't seem to exist here.

My next want would be for some of the Oil and Gas consortiums who do multibillion buck business here to start acting like a corporate partner in the province and area in which they do business. For instance how much does Gazprom contribute to KHL. Why do we never see this kind of thing here?
Basically this is a gas company in Russia realizing that in order for people to want to live in many of the cities in which they require workers to relocate there should be something to do and watch there. Alas we get no contribution like that here and I don't know that any of our political leaders even go out fishing for it. Peter Lougheed would have. That man could see the quality of life big picture for Albertans. RIP
As a province we should start putting some more demands on the business that take billions our of our province. jmo

So in short I want other partners involved. Katz and the city at least should be kicking tires for that. But Katz wants ALL revenue and no money up front. No wonder he has money.
Agreed on the Oil and gas cos.

Did Chipman build the MTS centre or was that a civic project?

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09-22-2012, 04:06 PM
  #103
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Hopefully everything will be clear in two weeks like Mandel said. If a deal is struck by then, then it looks like the Oilers will be around for another 35 years. If not, everyone will have to start looking for a plan b. If in two weeks time we find out that all deals are off and everyone has to start from scratch, well then it is time for the fan base to be concerned about the future of the team in Edmonton.
It's sounding more likely that plan b may have to be scheduling regular bus trips to Calgary to watch live NHL hockey.

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09-22-2012, 04:09 PM
  #104
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Agreed on the Oil and gas cos.

Did Chipman build the MTS centre or was that a civic project?
The cost was around $130 million, with True North contributing roughly $90 million, and all three levels of government splitting the remaining costs.

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09-22-2012, 04:09 PM
  #105
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Maybe it's better if Edmonton doesn't build an arena of this magnitude.

They will probably end up building it then having to rip it down and build it again because they will have forgotten to put in plumbing and electricity the first try.

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09-22-2012, 04:14 PM
  #106
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all this for Katz's land and $100M contribution.

The city should look outside this web spun by the Katz group.
The new arena does not need to be owned and controlled by Katz.

There is no shortage of available land in this city. Convert a park into an arena if you have to.
100M is also not much to the city. They waste this much money on useless projects anyways.

Let Katz group keep his land and money and work with someone else to build this facility.

This city will always an NHL team. Even if Katz moves the Oilers , build a top class faciliy and this hockey crazy city will have another NHL team shortly.

edit: +1 to an arena in revitalized Millwoods :p

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09-22-2012, 04:47 PM
  #107
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so what do you want Replacement. what are the other options. it's an obvious stalemate here. What can and should be done? The clock is ticking.

bottom line the way I look at it is that we secure the future of the Oilers in Edmonton, and basically Katz, by getting himself this sweetheart deal, collecting all the extra revenues and such, will allow for him to continually spend as much as ever necessary to keep players in town and the team itself to remain competitive.

The city is rapidly expanding, the economy - robust, and seems as though it should continue on that trend for the foreseeable future. If it means we have to line a billionaires pockets a little extra and give in to what he's asking, contribute tax dollars and such, I'm all for it. I just want the bloody thing built.
I think we need a better deal for the tax payer. How many people here got 60% of their mortgages payed for by the government? Anybody? Nope, but if you're a billionaire apparently the whole collective is supposed to pay the majority of money for you.

i'd rather have that money go to infastructure, which is a lot more important then having a shiny new arena. Katz is either with the city of Edmonton or he's with himself. He is the one who is going to choose what he wants and if it doesn't fit the fill for us then **** it, Ill watch the team somewhere else.

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09-22-2012, 04:53 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Its a complex question, and deserves an answer, but the City, and Katz, have made some fundamental mistakes in this all along. The City for instance sat by while Northlands was cut out of the equation. I don't know that wouldve been my stance to agree to that. Next, Katz, who is looking at the city as partner to front everything is the same guy that refused any co-ownership with any of the EIG that wanted to continue investing and who bought out the EIG in what could even be described as a take over bid. The same Katz now is crying for increased subsidy and funding from his loan partner in this.

sigh.

In a pie in the sky world what I would want is somebody with deep pockets believing in this city willing to really fund this in a meaningful way like the Thompson family did in Winnipeg. But alas this doesn't seem to exist here.

My next want would be for some of the Oil and Gas consortiums who do multibillion buck business here to start acting like a corporate partner in the province and area in which they do business. For instance how much does Gazprom contribute to KHL. Why do we never see this kind of thing here?
Basically this is a gas company in Russia realizing that in order for people to want to live in many of the cities in which they require workers to relocate there should be something to do and watch there. Alas we get no contribution like that here and I don't know that any of our political leaders even go out fishing for it. Peter Lougheed would have. That man could see the quality of life big picture for Albertans. RIP
As a province we should start putting some more demands on the business that take billions our of our province. jmo


So in short I want other partners involved. Katz and the city at least should be kicking tires for that. But Katz wants ALL revenue and no money up front. No wonder he has money.
This is a great idea.

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Old
09-22-2012, 05:08 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Silver View Post
And if Katz goes bankrupt?
just curious, who was the last Canadian billionaire to go bankrupt, in the pharmaceutical industry no less? There is a chance it could happen but unlikely IMO. Katz seems to have multiple lines going.

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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Its a complex question, and deserves an answer, but the City, and Katz, have made some fundamental mistakes in this all along. The City for instance sat by while Northlands was cut out of the equation. I don't know that wouldve been my stance to agree to that. Next, Katz, who is looking at the city as partner to front everything is the same guy that refused any co-ownership with any of the EIG that wanted to continue investing and who bought out the EIG in what could even be described as a take over bid. The same Katz now is crying for increased subsidy and funding from his loan partner in this.

sigh.

In a pie in the sky world what I would want is somebody with deep pockets believing in this city willing to really fund this in a meaningful way like the Thompson family did in Winnipeg. But alas this doesn't seem to exist here.

My next want would be for some of the Oil and Gas consortiums who do multibillion buck business here to start acting like a corporate partner in the province and area in which they do business. For instance how much does Gazprom contribute to KHL. Why do we never see this kind of thing here?
Basically this is a gas company in Russia realizing that in order for people to want to live in many of the cities in which they require workers to relocate there should be something to do and watch there. Alas we get no contribution like that here and I don't know that any of our political leaders even go out fishing for it. Peter Lougheed would have. That man could see the quality of life big picture for Albertans. RIP
As a province we should start putting some more demands on the business that take billions our of our province. jmo

So in short I want other partners involved. Katz and the city at least should be kicking tires for that. But Katz wants ALL revenue and no money up front. No wonder he has money.
cheers. Yeah I can see where you come from and I do agree to a certain extent. I guess I'm just frustrated with how things are dragging on and there is no doubt Katz is being a bit of a *****, however if he's the only person willing to get something, anything done, even if we have to bend over a bit as a city and taxpayers, I suppose you could say I'm for it, if it means the Oilers have a viable, successful long term future in Edmonton. I can't picture living here through those long, dreary winter months without hockey. Oil Kings wouldn't be the same.

As for the EIG "takeover", which I've seen you comment on many times, another bottom line is this... would any of those members of the EIG be willing to do anything at all involving the construction of a new arena, a rather elegant, state of the art one at that? I've heard/read multiple times on this and other boards that nobody on the EIG would be willing to put money into the efforts of constructing a new arena. Yeah it sucks that no one else is willing (or even able) to come forth and partner up for this project but such is the case. Can't even begin to compare any situation here in the oil & gas industry in Alberta with that which is going on in Russia.

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09-22-2012, 06:58 PM
  #110
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The team's financial prospects remained iffy. As EIG board member Brian Hryniuk puts it, "It still requires some sort of playoff depth (success) in order for the Oilers and perhaps many of the teams in the league to really do anything financially. Even with the new collective bargaining agreement, it's not the type of investment that Daryl Katz would be making to get a good return on his investment. It's just not there."

Nichols worked with a capital placement consultant, who approached a number of local businessmen to see if they would be interested in each buying 10 per cent of the team at a cost of $13.5 million to $15 million.

"What do we get for that?" the potential investors asked.

"You get a parking pass," Nichols told them. "Two passes to the building for hockey and admission to the owner's lounge and free drinks and snacks before and after games."

"That's it?"

"Yeah. And other than that, it's your risk on enhancement of franchise value. There's no dividends paid out."

In each case, the potential investors came back and said they had no further interest. "That was one acid test and that didn't go very far," Nichols says.

http://www.faceoff.com/story.html?id...a-52d3249f99ed

For everyone treating the EIG like jesus reincarnate and how they would build the arena themselves etc its a good read coming out of the mouths of the major players in EIG.

There are some drawbacks, it was written a few years ago so isnt current. Would have been nice to hear the EIG weigh in on more arena issues and the global recession

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09-22-2012, 07:20 PM
  #111
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Would it not make sense for the mayor and council to "mull over" this latest proposal by the Katz group and simply wait until the lockout is over -my bet would be sometime shortly before the New Year. MOre than likely, the owners will get the players to cave to their demands and decrease the players' share of HRR from 57% to 50%.

IF such a scenario takes place, and I think it will, city council could meet with Katz and say, " Well Mr. Katz, with this new agreement, you stand to increase your revenues by $7 - $10 million per season. Therefore, we see your recent requests for an additional $6 - $7 million per year for operating expenses to be rather unnecessary."

I think it would make sense for city council to wait until a new collective bargaining agreement is hammered out. My guess is it will provide them with some ammo in negotiations with Katz.


Last edited by blueandgoldguy: 09-22-2012 at 07:22 PM. Reason: grammar
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09-22-2012, 08:04 PM
  #112
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The city should buy all the luxury boxes and convert them into living units for the homeless.

That would help revitalize downtown.

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09-22-2012, 08:13 PM
  #113
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just curious, who was the last Canadian billionaire to go bankrupt, in the pharmaceutical industry no less? There is a chance it could happen but unlikely IMO. Katz seems to have multiple lines going.
Ottawa Senator's owner, bankrupt in 2003 after building a new arena out in the middle of nowhere, forced to sell the team

Frank Griffiths, over-extended himself building Roger's place in Vancouver, forced to sell the team in 97

Molson Inc. forced to sell 80% of the Canadiens and 100% of the Molson center to American businessman George N. Gillett Jr. 2001, after having attendance issues(20K+ arena in Montreal not filling up, madness right?) and struggling to justify owning the team during the low dollar, pre-lockout years even after building their cavernous new building. Molson would re-purchase the team in 09 after significant changes in the economic landscape.

While they all have their special circumstances and issues unique to their situations, privately built arenas in Canada have not been good business for Canadian NHL owners. Funny enough, people like to cite those buildings as reasons for Katz to build it himself as if they were somehow success stories for the teams involved, when it actually has been the exact opposite.

Judging by how much Katz is pushing for, I don't think he missed the hard lessons others learned, and has little interest in putting himself at serious risk as others have building arenas in Canada.

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09-22-2012, 08:16 PM
  #114
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Nice of the oilers twitter to retweet something like this...

https://twitter.com/NHL_Oilers/statu...48015252545536

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09-22-2012, 08:18 PM
  #115
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Nice of the oilers twitter to retweet something like this...

https://twitter.com/NHL_Oilers/statu...48015252545536
Fans and citizens need to understand this reality: No arena means no Oilers. Period.

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09-22-2012, 08:25 PM
  #116
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Fans and citizens need to understand this reality: No arena means no Oilers. Period.
I concur.

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09-22-2012, 08:26 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
Ottawa Senator's owner, bankrupt in 2003 after building a new arena out in the middle of nowhere, forced to sell the team

Frank Griffiths, over-extended himself building Roger's place in Vancouver, forced to sell the team in 97

Molson Inc. forced to sell 80% of the Canadiens and 100% of the Molson center to American businessman George N. Gillett Jr. 2001, after having attendance issues(20K+ arena in Montreal not filling up, madness right?) and struggling to justify owning the team during the low dollar, pre-lockout years even after building their cavernous new building. Molson would re-purchase the team in 09 after significant changes in the economic landscape.

While they all have their special circumstances and issues unique to their situations, privately built arenas in Canada have not been good business for Canadian NHL owners. Funny enough, people like to cite those buildings as reasons for Katz to build it himself as if they were somehow success stories for the teams involved, when it actually has been the exact opposite.

Judging by how much Katz is pushing for, I don't think he missed the hard lessons others learned, and has little interest in putting himself at serious risk as others have building arenas in Canada.
Ah, so what your saying is that we should pay for it and let him own it. I got ya

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09-22-2012, 08:29 PM
  #118
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Ah, so what your saying is that we should pay for it and let him own it. I got ya
Your conclusion, not mine.

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09-22-2012, 08:30 PM
  #119
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Your conclusion, not mine.
No i got your message.

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09-22-2012, 08:34 PM
  #120
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The first page of this thread reminded me of this:




Hint: writing off a loss doesn't mean you didn't lose the money. If, for example, you have a 130M$ capital gain and 10 years of 10M$/yr losses, and you "write off" the 100M$, that does not mean you walk away with all 130M$. The losses don't somehow magically reappear in your bank account because you "wrote it off".

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09-22-2012, 08:43 PM
  #121
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No i got your message.
Clearly not, since I wasn't making an arguement for Katz.

Just responding to a line of discussion about the possiblity of Katz going bankrupt, and speculating on what some of his motivations might be considering the recent history of the topic.

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09-22-2012, 08:48 PM
  #122
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And if Katz goes bankrupt?
The city still has the rink, which they would own.

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09-22-2012, 08:49 PM
  #123
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Ah, so what your saying is that we should pay for it and let him own it. I got ya
For the umpteenth time, the city would own the arena and the Katz group would operate it....

The ONLY arena in Canada privately built that hasn't ruined the team's owner is the ACC. Toronto Maple Leafs. The team reporting over 230 million in revenue for the last 3 years compared to the Oilers 39.

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09-22-2012, 08:56 PM
  #124
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For the umpteenth time, the city would own the arena and the Katz group would operate it....

The ONLY arena in Canada privately built that hasn't ruined the team's owner is the ACC. Toronto Maple Leafs. The team reporting over 230 million in revenue for the last 3 years compared to the Oilers 39.
edit.

Link.


Last edited by flashy: 09-22-2012 at 09:27 PM.
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09-22-2012, 08:58 PM
  #125
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11. Who will own the land?

The City would own the land and arena.
http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...nding-faq.aspx

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