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Old
11-27-2012, 04:07 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by hockeylegend11 View Post
Schoenmakers is hoping for Kitchener or London as a landing spot,although u would think maybe Owen Sd,dump Zweep get more scoring
Zweep can put a few points up, so combine that with his toughness and experience, and I'm not sure that's a good idea for OS.

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11-27-2012, 04:11 PM
  #177
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Your hilarious,you think your going to get both of them for your spare parts and a few draft picks what you offered will get you one of them if you want to get both someone by the name of Domi or Horvat has to be going the other way so Ottawas GM has something of real value to show there fans, a 94 player that hasent put up great numbers and a pair of 95s who really haven't done any thing YET in there career a pair of seconds and a third for BOTH, not happening that's just completely unrealistic.
Let's recall a trade a while back:
Tavares, Del Zotto, Borden
for
C. Thomas (potential star,- worked out), S. Valentine (solid Dman), M. Zador (potentially good - horrible), 4 2nd rd picks, 2 3rd round picks.
Knights gave that up for a rental of Tavares and Del Zotto (but when the trade was made it was thought that Del Zotto would be back the next year) and Borden as a throw in.
So then for fun, lets say Tavares cost 3 2nds, 1 3rd and Thomas
Del Zotto cost 1 2nd, 1 3rd Valentine and Zador.

Why couldn't it be
Monaghan cost 2 2nds, 3rd, Tierney
Ceci costs 1 2nd, Ellie and James.

Monaghan is not guaranteed back (if he is as good as you make him out to be, he might be in the N next year) and he certainly is no Tavares.
Another point is that you look back at this and the best 'player' in this deal was Thomas. When he was traded he had 4 goals in 32 games....for the rest of the year he added another whopping 4 goals. it was the following year it paid off. If Elli (which by the way, is going to be a star and dont want to see him traded) pans out like Thomas, you wouldn't be excited?! Jammes too?

You have to remember that when doing a dump trade, you don't do it for immediate payoff. Ottawa has drafted horribly over the past two years. You think you will be competitive next year if you keep these two guys? no, but if you acquire draft picks and young budding stars then you give your fans hope.
Knights aren't stupid, Domi/Horvat etc don't go anywhere for anybody. It simply wouldn't be enough of an upgrade to make a move.


Last edited by Knights77: 11-27-2012 at 04:16 PM. Reason: missed information
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11-27-2012, 04:18 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by OHLTG View Post
Zweep can put a few points up, so combine that with his toughness and experience, and I'm not sure that's a good idea for OS.
While I know pts does not always tell the story for a player,however in this case, 3 goals and 1 assist tells me he cant put up numbers,10th highest scoring foward out of 13 for OS,and while he hits and is very tough how much ice would he get as OS goes for the championship
They need secondary scoring
I would agree it probably wont happen,Kitchener with an open O/A spot,2 O/As who are non productive,and the fact Schoenmakers is a Kitchener native makes the most sense,though dont discount London

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11-27-2012, 04:36 PM
  #179
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Zweep had 12-points last year and, given his role, that's not bad.

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11-27-2012, 05:25 PM
  #180
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OS needs secondary scoring and hed be an upgrade over Zweep for sure.

But I agree Ktown is option #1, and maybe London #2 but not sure London would offer too much unless to drive up price on Ktown.

As much as Ferry is a very valuable piece and is a team guy, the OA spot is one where London maybe able to upgrade IMO

As for the Ottawa/ London trade thats gotten so much time here. I hope MArk doesnt break the bank for both. If I had to I go after Ceci and then a second third line vet PF.

I dont think MArk breaks the bank this year, as they wanna shot next year as well. bUt nothiung will surprise me. I figure its Jan before we know

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Old
11-27-2012, 05:29 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by OHLTG View Post
Zweep had 12-points last year and, given his role, that's not bad.
By all accounts, Zweep is having a hard time playing his "role" as the refs have kept a real close eye on him and hes prone to penalties when trying to "muck it up". Hes not a great skater so its hard to a real effective body checker because of that.

If hes taking penalties (whether deserved or picked on by refs) and his ice time has been limited bercause of that, and he isnt producing much in the way of points why not look to upgrade?

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11-27-2012, 10:37 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by hockeylegend11 View Post
While I know pts does not always tell the story for a player,however in this case, 3 goals and 1 assist tells me he cant put up numbers,10th highest scoring foward out of 13 for OS,and while he hits and is very tough how much ice would he get as OS goes for the championship
They need secondary scoring
I would agree it probably wont happen,Kitchener with an open O/A spot,2 O/As who are non productive,and the fact Schoenmakers is a Kitchener native makes the most sense,though dont discount London

But, the Rangers don't have a lot in the way of assets to deal for Schoenmakers or anyone else. They have one second rounder before 2017 and no 3rd rounders until 2018. Their 2012 first round pick, Matt Schmalz, is a healthy scratch more often than not and the fact he wasn't picked for Ontario's U17 team, when the head coach is Kitchener asst. coach Troy Smith, speaks volumns.

They can probably only make a deal or two and the assets that it would take to bring in Schoenmakers would be needed to try and get higher end players.

When asked in today's paper about acquiring Schoenmakers, Spott complained that the asking price for him was too high in the off season (Windsor eventually paid a 2nd and a 3rd). He also said he wasn't in any rush to make any moves (only one goal scored tonight for a team that can't score). He also said that nobody called him about Schoenmakers. I guess he expects the Petes to call him with another gift (Puempel).

If the Rangers bring in Schoenmakers, it won't be because he outbid anyone.

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11-27-2012, 11:01 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Knights77 View Post
So then for fun, lets say Tavares cost 3 2nds, 1 3rd and Thomas
Del Zotto cost 1 2nd, 1 3rd Valentine and Zador.

Why couldn't it be
Monaghan cost 2 2nds, 3rd, Tierney
Ceci costs 1 2nd, Ellie and James.
Tavares was never going to come back, and like you say Del Zotto was expected to. Both Monahan and Ceci have about the same chance Del Zotto had of coming back. 19 year old mid-first round defencemen don't often make the NHL (though I understand that's exactly what Del Zotto did), and neither do picks in the 5-10 range, which is where Monahan will likely fall (especially when they're late birthdays). That's a big difference, given that neither is sure to be a rental.

A better comparison for Monahan might be the acquisition of Zack Kassian by the Spitfires a few years ago, because he was likely coming back for another season. Here's how that deal worked at the time it was agreed:

92 Austin Watson (42GP - 11G, 23P, 34P) + 2 second round picks for
91 Kassian (33GP - 8G, 19A, 27P)

so, plugging Monahan into the equation:

95 Player X + 2 second round picks for
94 Sean Monahan (24GP - 12G, 24A, 26P)

What does 95 Player X = on this year's Knights?

Well, likely Horvat will project close to similar numbers as Watson by the time he hits 42 games (currently 27GP, 8G, 8A, 16P). Will Hunter do that? Probably not. If he doesn't want to include a prospect who is already performing, he will probably have to include a lot more picks.

Regardless, these types of projections are little more than conjecture. The reality is that the context and circumstances around teams at the time of the deal have a lot to do with it. Not to mention how each team perceives the talent...

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Old
11-28-2012, 12:04 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by aresknights View Post
By all accounts, Zweep is having a hard time playing his "role" as the refs have kept a real close eye on him and hes prone to penalties when trying to "muck it up". Hes not a great skater so its hard to a real effective body checker because of that.

If hes taking penalties (whether deserved or picked on by refs) and his ice time has been limited bercause of that, and he isnt producing much in the way of points why not look to upgrade?
Get rid of someone else before Zweep. You'll need a guy like him in the playoffs.

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Old
11-28-2012, 12:40 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Knights77 View Post

You have to remember that when doing a dump trade, you don't do it for immediate payoff. Ottawa has drafted horribly over the past two years. You think you will be competitive next year if you keep these two guys? no, but if you acquire draft picks and young budding stars then you give your fans hope.
Knights aren't stupid, Domi/Horvat etc don't go anywhere for anybody. It simply wouldn't be enough of an upgrade to make a move.
That is not true at all.

We drafted Monohan in the middle of the first round is turning out to be the best pick from that draft. Salituro has great point production early on. We have 5 16 year olds on our team that were drafted last year.

EDIT: Forgot about Perklin. That was a bad pick, but helped in getting McFarland. Could pan out for the Spirit though.

The reason we are horrible is because we lost everything last year. Toffoli, Prince, Mrazek, Zanetti, McFarland, Cazzola, Smith. All replaced by kids.

As for trades go, Ceci/Monohan/Graovac will likely all be moved. Monohan will be in the NHL next year, Ceci/Graovac AHL. That said, all those in a package deal would get a huge return. I like the way the proposals are going so far in this thread. Either way I'm excited to see the 67's make a move that hopefully makes the team better in a few years.


Last edited by Lazarrr: 11-28-2012 at 12:48 AM.
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Old
11-28-2012, 01:16 AM
  #186
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We drafted Monohan in the middle of the first round is turning out to be the best pick from that draft. Salituro has great point production early on. We have 5 16 year olds on our team that were drafted last year.
I love Monohan's game - have since the beginning, but I think it's a bit of a stretch to consider him the best pick of that draft. I think you may have forgotten about Galchenyuk. If you're talking strictly value for where the guy was taken that makes a little more sense, but I think you still need to add Rychel at 22, and Vail in the 3rd or 5th or wherever he was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicNeilTime View Post
As for trades go, Ceci/Monohan/Graovac will likely all be moved. Monohan will be in the NHL next year, Ceci/Graovac AHL. That said, all those in a package deal would get a huge return.
Why so sure? I'm not. Look at guys drafted in the same sort of spot as he will likely go - Huberdeau, Strome, Scheifele...it's nowhere near a lock that he'll make the jump, in my opinion. Also, the suspension makes it even less likely...

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11-28-2012, 06:40 AM
  #187
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How hard is it to spell Monahan? Not Monaghan nor Monohan haha

I do agree, Ottawa certainly needs to move Ceci and definitely Graovac as neither will be back. The Sens are praising Ceci hard so they've got big plans with him.
t this point,

I feel as though you treat Monahan in a wait-and-see approach (like Gachenyuk). He's got the skill to jump into the NHL lineup next year but if this lockout goes the distance then roster spots will be extra competitive in the Fall 2013 and he 'could" be returned. Something to consider.

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11-28-2012, 07:26 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Tavares was never going to come back, and like you say Del Zotto was expected to. Both Monahan and Ceci have about the same chance Del Zotto had of coming back. 19 year old mid-first round defencemen don't often make the NHL (though I understand that's exactly what Del Zotto did), and neither do picks in the 5-10 range, which is where Monahan will likely fall (especially when they're late birthdays). That's a big difference, given that neither is sure to be a rental.

A better comparison for Monahan might be the acquisition of Zack Kassian by the Spitfires a few years ago, because he was likely coming back for another season. Here's how that deal worked at the time it was agreed:

92 Austin Watson (42GP - 11G, 23P, 34P) + 2 second round picks for
91 Kassian (33GP - 8G, 19A, 27P)

so, plugging Monahan into the equation:

95 Player X + 2 second round picks for
94 Sean Monahan (24GP - 12G, 24A, 26P)

What does 95 Player X = on this year's Knights?

Well, likely Horvat will project close to similar numbers as Watson by the time he hits 42 games (currently 27GP, 8G, 8A, 16P). Will Hunter do that? Probably not. If he doesn't want to include a prospect who is already performing, he will probably have to include a lot more picks.

Regardless, these types of projections are little more than conjecture. The reality is that the context and circumstances around teams at the time of the deal have a lot to do with it. Not to mention how each team perceives the talent...
I concur with your assessment. With that said, I agree that there would be no point in trading somebody who is already performing the way Horvat is for this upgrade. (as you would have to include more too).

note to EpicNeilTime - I should have specified, 67's have not drafted well in the secound round over the past couple years (everybody gets good players in the first round)

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11-28-2012, 07:42 AM
  #189
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But, the Rangers don't have a lot in the way of assets to deal for Schoenmakers or anyone else. They have one second rounder before 2017 and no 3rd rounders until 2018. Their 2012 first round pick, Matt Schmalz, is a healthy scratch more often than not and the fact he wasn't picked for Ontario's U17 team, when the head coach is Kitchener asst. coach Troy Smith, speaks volumns.

They can probably only make a deal or two and the assets that it would take to bring in Schoenmakers would be needed to try and get higher end players.

When asked in today's paper about acquiring Schoenmakers, Spott complained that the asking price for him was too high in the off season (Windsor eventually paid a 2nd and a 3rd). He also said he wasn't in any rush to make any moves (only one goal scored tonight for a team that can't score). He also said that nobody called him about Schoenmakers. I guess he expects the Petes to call him with another gift (Puempel).

If the Rangers bring in Schoenmakers, it won't be because he outbid anyone.
Schoenmakers was wandering around the Aud last night. I'm hoping the Petes realize soon that they can't ask too much for him, or they end up with no player and no return on the player.

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11-28-2012, 08:05 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Both Monahan and Ceci have about the same chance Del Zotto had of coming back. 19 year old mid-first round defencemen don't often make the NHL (though I understand that's exactly what Del Zotto did)
Ceci is a December birthday, he's eligible to play in the AHL next year as a result. And you have to think he will.

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11-28-2012, 08:35 AM
  #191
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Ceci is a December birthday, he's eligible to play in the AHL next year as a result. And you have to think he will.
Ahh...fair point. Regardless, I think that Monahan's likelihood of coming back is pretty substantial.

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11-28-2012, 09:13 AM
  #192
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Steelheads are going to need to do something but likely at the deadline. They should be sellers because if they don't they will likely lose Percy, DeMelo and definately Brace next year and get nothing in return for them.

They are playing well as a team, yes, but they've got nothing really to buy with, other than their top guys and without that will likely not make it through more than one or two rounds of playoffs which then will leave them with nothing for next year to work with.

Opinions anyone?
DeMelo may be back. Don't think he's signed yet. If they have a firesale this year then when will they take a shot? Better try to add a couple of forwards this year.

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11-28-2012, 11:02 AM
  #193
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Get rid of someone else before Zweep. You'll need a guy like him in the playoffs.
Fighting in OHL is down over 25%, fighting in the playoffs is reduced even more. Hence you really don't need a guy like Zweep in the playoffs.

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11-28-2012, 11:32 AM
  #194
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Agreed Razor. London was OK without a Zweep type player, as was conf finalist Ktown, and a few other teams that have made conf or league finals lately.

He wouldnt get many min in the POs. HE just eats a roster position without adding much come POs. If there looking to upgrade an OA, hes the odd man out. There not moving the other 2.

(dont bring up Flemmington- non factor)

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11-28-2012, 11:36 AM
  #195
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Originally Posted by aresknights View Post
Agreed Razor. London was OK without a Zweep type player, as was conf finalist Ktown, and a few other teams that have made conf or league finals lately.

He wouldnt get many min in the POs. HE just eats a roster position without adding much come POs. If there looking to upgrade an OA, hes the odd man out. There not moving the other 2.

(dont bring up Flemmington- non factor)
That is why it was so easy to send Restoule and Nevins packing from the Knights in favour of younger skilled players as their game was primarily sandpaper and knuckles. (still wanted to see more from Nevins, but an injury did him in).

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11-28-2012, 11:38 AM
  #196
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Ahh...fair point. Regardless, I think that Monahan's likelihood of coming back is pretty substantial.
I think one would have to "expect" him to come back to the OHL next year. Once you start adding up the various odds... of there even being an NHL, of the draft order getting mixed up such that a somewhat stronger team gets him, (or there even being a draft if there is decertification or other nuclear CBA result?), plus the odds that he would just not have made the cut yet anyway... solid chance he's back in the OHL next year. I guess the seller (67's) and the buyer in any such trade would have to be on the same page wrt expectations... if both expect him back, his price is higher accordingly.

But of course it also depends a lot on the market. If there are multiple rival teams bidding for the same players, it will drive the price up correspondingly. If there are other packages of elite players being sold off by other teams... down go the prices. I don't know that the market is quite clearly enough defined yet. But the 67's themselves are surely showing no signs of a miracle turnaround, so those players are definitely going to be in play.

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11-28-2012, 11:58 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
Ceci is a December birthday, he's eligible to play in the AHL next year as a result. And you have to think he will.
It doesn't matter what month he is born in, the fact that he is a 1993 born player making him an overager next year allows him to play in the AHL next season.

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11-28-2012, 12:49 PM
  #198
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It doesn't matter what month he is born in, the fact that he is a 1993 born player making him an overager next year allows him to play in the AHL next season.

I think he was just originally pointing out that it was his December birthday that meant he was only drafted to the NHL this year, when most junior players have two years of eligibility after their draft. But yes, he is definitely AHL or NHL next year one would think.

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11-28-2012, 01:15 PM
  #199
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Fighting in OHL is down over 25%, fighting in the playoffs is reduced even more. Hence you really don't need a guy like Zweep in the playoffs.
I really don't like getting into this debate, again, but...

Look at Windsor's two Memorial Cup runs: Greenop, Kassian, and MacDermid. All three could go anyone in the league and chipped in a few points (I realize Greenop was the lesser of the three in terms of points). Sure, if you're a London where you can put up 10 goals a game, you might not need the giant enforcer, but a team like OS could certainly use one. It's not like Zweep can't skate and can't play; the guy has talent.

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11-28-2012, 03:03 PM
  #200
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Kassian could play the game at a much higher level than Zweep.
McDermid as well was a player valued much higher than Zweep (Zweep would get no where near the return Spits paid for him)
Greenop- a fan fav Im sure but I think they had a good shot at winng without him. Thou I did look forward to the scraps vs London

Dont get me wrong, I like having big physical guys on the team I cheer for for a # of reasons, its just that I think Zweeps contributions would be irrelavant/ unneeded on a championship calibre team.

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