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Old
11-28-2012, 03:48 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
Schoenmakers was wandering around the Aud last night. I'm hoping the Petes realize soon that they can't ask too much for him, or they end up with no player and no return on the player.
this kind of stuff I actually can't take. Schoenmakers is by no means an elite player in this league and he wants to force teams hands into trading him to his home town. I get it you wanna play close to home and in front of your friends and family. If not go play with the Pete's and help mentor some young kids or if your that picky im sure the Univeristy of Waterloo or Laurier are looking for players. Thats close to home as well derek. I liked him when he played in Mississauga don't get me wrong but the fact that an average player to say the least wants everyone to fall over their feet for him is ridiculous.


Rant over.

P.S on topic I hope Missy makes a deal for Graovac, could be a player that fits in well here.

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11-28-2012, 04:30 PM
  #202
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It's not like Zweep can't skate and can't play; the guy has talent.
I don't mean to sound negative or condescending but this statement just isn't true. I've never seen Zweep actually catch up to a player with the puck and lay a legal hit. He does not have the speed to be physical, he has no puck skills, and really isn't a good fighter at all. At least guys like Emerson Clark and Bilcke can keep up with the play and create some space. Zweep is just like Mike Yovanic.

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11-28-2012, 04:32 PM
  #203
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Well it's not his fault the Petes wouldn't do the trade without shoe in it, and I agree completely with him I mean why the heck would be want to go to the worst team in the league in his last season of junior hockey, if he got traded from the spits he wanted to go to a contender at least instead of going to a team that's going to have a lot of long nights and a very long season... I'm sure he would be fine going to the knights and hour and a half down the 401 from Kitchener or yea he wants to play at home I mean he's an overager and wants to enjoy his last season in the O, or why not start the next step of his life and go to college.

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11-28-2012, 06:28 PM
  #204
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I don't mean to sound negative or condescending but this statement just isn't true. I've never seen Zweep actually catch up to a player with the puck and lay a legal hit. He does not have the speed to be physical, he has no puck skills, and really isn't a good fighter at all. At least guys like Emerson Clark and Bilcke can keep up with the play and create some space. Zweep is just like Mike Yovanic.

He's not a good fighter? Have you seen his fights? Few, if any, can touch him.

As for Schoenmakers, I don't disagree with what he did. You're in your final season and were just traded to a team that's near the bottom and not looking good anytime soon. Would most expect him to stay? Probably not. Brent Sullivan did the same thing after a Windsor deal (going to SSM) a couple of seasons ago and nobody blinked.

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11-28-2012, 08:30 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by OHLTG View Post
He's not a good fighter? Have you seen his fights? Few, if any, can touch him
Flemmington threw Zweep around last year, Mathers would pump him and id bet Biggs would too. But being his size he should be a decent fighter cuz he doesnt have much else. If the Sound is making a serious run he is a waste of a roster spot. What value exactly does he add when playing the Knights for example? Intimidate? Create space? If so, hasnt worked so far...

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11-28-2012, 09:42 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Knights77 View Post
Flemmington threw Zweep around last year, Mathers would pump him and id bet Biggs would too. But being his size he should be a decent fighter cuz he doesnt have much else. If the Sound is making a serious run he is a waste of a roster spot. What value exactly does he add when playing the Knights for example? Intimidate? Create space? If so, hasnt worked so far...
You mean this fight?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvuHQkwMRmo

Or this one...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9jWX...layer_embedded

He beat a very tough Clark here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9jWX...layer_embedded

I'm sure many around the league would do a number on him, though, right?

Or...maybe not?
http://www.dropyourgloves.com/Fights...d.aspx?P=46212

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11-28-2012, 09:46 PM
  #207
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OHLTG is right, Zweep does have a good fight record historically. I guess I just missed that part when I watch every other team skate around him and score goals

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11-28-2012, 10:07 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by wrister39 View Post
I don't mean to sound negative or condescending but this statement just isn't true. I've never seen Zweep actually catch up to a player with the puck and lay a legal hit. He does not have the speed to be physical, he has no puck skills, and really isn't a good fighter at all. At least guys like Emerson Clark and Bilcke can keep up with the play and create some space. Zweep is just like Mike Yovanic.
Come on guys, Zweep is a very good fighter, and top 5 in the league for sure. Owen sound has enough stars and need a tough guy to protect them.

In respect to Clarke, he is too small to be a serious enforcer and Bilcke has alot of fights, but he also got rocked against Spencer Cobbold of the Majors last year. He is alot smaller than Bilcke. Just to show that every tough guy has a bad day at the job.

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Old
11-28-2012, 10:07 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by wrister39 View Post
OHLTG is right, Zweep does have a good fight record historically. I guess I just missed that part when I watch every other team skate around him and score goals
Ah yes, the ever subjective hockeyfights, everyone has an opinion and cant agree on who did what. Like I pointed out, at that size if you arent a decent fighter, you're doing something wrong.
Main point being hes a plug, and this years game with fighting down, he is as valuable as Shoenmaker is to the Petes.

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11-28-2012, 10:18 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Knights77 View Post
Ah yes, the ever subjective hockeyfights, everyone has an opinion and cant agree on who did what. Like I pointed out, at that size if you arent a decent fighter, you're doing something wrong.
Main point being hes a plug, and this years game with fighting down, he is as valuable as Shoenmaker is to the Petes.
If you look at his fights, people pretty much agree he dominated them. It's all right there. I'm not sure where you don't see he's a decent fighter, but that's your decision.

The one thing I've always found amusing, though, is when people talk about a players "value" to a team. Has anyone ever talked to the players to find out what an enforcers value is? I have. Value isn't points or +/-, but what they bring to the locker room, the bench, and the confidence of the other 20+ guys on the team. If I'm a hockey player, having that one giant on the team who can go anyone in the league is invaluable. If you prefer to look at just the stats, though, hey, by all means.

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Old
11-28-2012, 11:00 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by OHLTG View Post
If you look at his fights, people pretty much agree he dominated them. It's all right there. I'm not sure where you don't see he's a decent fighter, but that's your decision.

The one thing I've always found amusing, though, is when people talk about a players "value" to a team. Has anyone ever talked to the players to find out what an enforcers value is? I have. Value isn't points or +/-, but what they bring to the locker room, the bench, and the confidence of the other 20+ guys on the team. If I'm a hockey player, having that one giant on the team who can go anyone in the league is invaluable. If you prefer to look at just the stats, though, hey, by all means.
Here's what I don't get. You're stating these enforcers carry the intangibles. Intangibles cannot be measured but you're trying to put a value on these enforcers that cannot be measured. How do you put a value on something that can't be measured? Do you believe the Knights would have won the OHL championship if Flemington was not on the roster? Do you believe the Spits would have won 2 OHL championships without Greenop? I don't want an explanation just a simple yes or no answer.

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Old
11-28-2012, 11:51 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
Here's what I don't get. You're stating these enforcers carry the intangibles. Intangibles cannot be measured but you're trying to put a value on these enforcers that cannot be measured. How do you put a value on something that can't be measured? Do you believe the Knights would have won the OHL championship if Flemington was not on the roster? Do you believe the Spits would have won 2 OHL championships without Greenop? I don't want an explanation just a simple yes or no answer.
Yes, but...

At least with the Spits, you could say the same thing about any player on the roster. Take off Hall, the team still has 9 or 10 future NHLers. Take off Henrique, same thing. Take off (insert player here), and, yep, same thing.

I realize I'm in the minority here and I have no issues with that.

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Old
11-29-2012, 12:38 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by OHLTG View Post
At least with the Spits, you could say the same thing about any player on the roster. Take off Hall, the team still has 9 or 10 future NHLers. Take off Henrique, same thing. Take off (insert player here), and, yep, same thing.
For clarity, you think the Spitfires would have won the 2 cups without Taylor Hall? Or Henrique? Is that what you're saying?

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11-29-2012, 09:29 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
Here's what I don't get. You're stating these enforcers carry the intangibles. Intangibles cannot be measured but you're trying to put a value on these enforcers that cannot be measured. How do you put a value on something that can't be measured? Do you believe the Knights would have won the OHL championship if Flemington was not on the roster? Do you believe the Spits would have won 2 OHL championships without Greenop? I don't want an explanation just a simple yes or no answer.
Yes

It sounds to me like you are saying that Flemington brought as much value as any other one player on that team??? So Flemington was as valuable as Watson???

Greenop was as valuable as Hall???

Did Flemington or Greenop even play in the Mem Cup?

.....Or are you saying that YES, both the Knights and Spits would have got there without these players??

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11-29-2012, 09:51 AM
  #215
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i think you need a tough guy on the team, even if they dont play a whole lot, it makes there teammates a little bit bigger knowing theres a guy like that on your team, they kind of help ref the games...less runs at players less cheap shots people like Greenop intimidate. Tough guys and Snipers/Playmakers are valuable in different ways, if you need a fight to try and spark the team or an energy shift with lots of hits you throw guys like Greenop, Zweep, Bilcke, Mathers out there and when you need your Best players to score goals they need to, easy as that sure your snipers and playmakers are going to get the majority or the points and win you games but the tough guys/Grinders have a role and if they play it right there valuable in a way.

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Old
11-29-2012, 09:53 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by KnightRanger View Post
Yes

It sounds to me like you are saying that Flemington brought as much value as any other one player on that team??? So Flemington was as valuable as Watson???

Greenop was as valuable as Hall???

Did Flemington or Greenop even play in the Mem Cup?

.....Or are you saying that YES, both the Knights and Spits would have got there without these players??
Thats correct

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Old
11-29-2012, 09:59 AM
  #217
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i think you need a tough guy on the team, even if they dont play a whole lot, it makes there teammates a little bit bigger knowing theres a guy like that on your team, they kind of help ref the games...less runs at players less cheap shots people like Greenop intimidate.
It is nice to have, IF they can be counted on not to be a liability when not fighting. Going. going, almost gone are the days of carrying a fight only player on your team. You cant afford the roster spot being spent on a 2-3 shift a game guy.
London did OK last year and Flem rarely played after Dec 1. There are doing OK this year as well and no Flems, Zweeps, Yovanics in sight (althou Leroux has gotten a game in)

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Old
11-29-2012, 10:03 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
For clarity, you think the Spitfires would have won the 2 cups without Taylor Hall? Or Henrique? Is that what you're saying?
If you take out one (1) player from their championship rosters, they'd still have won the Cups. That's what I'm saying. My point stands, though, that MOST teams should have a legit tough guy in case stuff happens. It's better to have one than to not.

Quote:
There are doing OK this year as well and no Flems, Zweeps, Yovanics in sight (althou Leroux has gotten a game in)
When you score 6-8 goals a game, most teams won't do much to you.

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11-29-2012, 10:37 AM
  #219
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When you score 6-8 goals a game, most teams won't do much to you.
Id guess that would be more a reason for opponents to want to bring the game into the trenches. If ya cant skate with em intimidate, beat em up, take their will away so to speak
The Spits 09/10 could score at pace similar to London but you reference them having tough guys as a reason for needing them cause they won, but yet say they are unneccesary on a tteam like that?


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It's better to have one than to not.
Agreed, IF he can actually play as well (ala Kassian, Salters, Prust, MacDermid)

Quote:
If you take out one (1) player from their championship rosters, they'd still have won the Cups. That's what I'm saying.
No one can answer that. Spits won a well earned 5 OT series, could one player have a difference in a series that close? Wellwood, Loktionov and biggest of all Cann sure left marks on that series for different reasons and may have been the difference. One player can be the difference.

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11-29-2012, 12:39 PM
  #220
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DeMelo may be back. Don't think he's signed yet. If they have a firesale this year then when will they take a shot? Better try to add a couple of forwards this year.
Ok, and what do you propose that they give away to get those couple of forwards? It's not like they have a tonne of picks, they gave those away Mem Cup year and have been fighting last and this year to try and get some back.

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11-29-2012, 01:07 PM
  #221
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Ok, and what do you propose that they give away to get those couple of forwards? It's not like they have a tonne of picks, they gave those away Mem Cup year and have been fighting last and this year to try and get some back.
I'm not familiar with what picks they have and what they gave away. You think they should just blow this team up?

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11-29-2012, 07:20 PM
  #222
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It is nice to have, IF they can be counted on not to be a liability when not fighting. Going. going, almost gone are the days of carrying a fight only player on your team. You cant afford the roster spot being spent on a 2-3 shift a game guy.
London did OK last year and Flem rarely played after Dec 1. There are doing OK this year as well and no Flems, Zweeps, Yovanics in sight (althou Leroux has gotten a game in)
London also had Tinordi that could be considered a heavyweight, and for this reason Flemmington didnt play much down the stretch and wasnt really needed. No Tinordi and no Flemmington, and London may have been a different team??

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11-29-2012, 07:21 PM
  #223
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i think you need a tough guy on the team, even if they dont play a whole lot, it makes there teammates a little bit bigger knowing theres a guy like that on your team, they kind of help ref the games...less runs at players less cheap shots people like Greenop intimidate. Tough guys and Snipers/Playmakers are valuable in different ways, if you need a fight to try and spark the team or an energy shift with lots of hits you throw guys like Greenop, Zweep, Bilcke, Mathers out there and when you need your Best players to score goals they need to, easy as that sure your snipers and playmakers are going to get the majority or the points and win you games but the tough guys/Grinders have a role and if they play it right there valuable in a way.
Agreed.

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11-29-2012, 09:27 PM
  #224
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London also had Tinordi that could be considered a heavyweight, and for this reason Flemmington didnt play much down the stretch and wasnt really needed. No Tinordi and no Flemmington, and London may have been a different team??
Tinordi never fought after Johnny McGuire hurt him in a fight early in the season. Flemington didn't play becuase he sucked, not becuase they had a "heavyweight" in Tinordi. Tinordi was just one of the best defensive d-men last year.

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11-29-2012, 09:52 PM
  #225
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i think you need a tough guy on the team, even if they dont play a whole lot, it makes there teammates a little bit bigger knowing theres a guy like that on your team, they kind of help ref the games...less runs at players less cheap shots people like Greenop intimidate. Tough guys and Snipers/Playmakers are valuable in different ways, if you need a fight to try and spark the team or an energy shift with lots of hits you throw guys like Greenop, Zweep, Bilcke, Mathers out there and when you need your Best players to score goals they need to, easy as that sure your snipers and playmakers are going to get the majority or the points and win you games but the tough guys/Grinders have a role and if they play it right there valuable in a way.
This.

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