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Old
09-28-2012, 07:28 PM
  #226
Viqsi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
Dude you make Edler sound like he's useless. He's the best defense-man on a deep Canucks roster. Your criticisms of Edler having lousy hockey sense are so off-base i'm not sure where to start. Get a clue..watch the guy play and stop using single you-tube videos to try to prove your lame point.
I'd be tempted to put Hamhuis ahead personally, but, meh. He's good enough that it's not out of the question, and I don't watch as many Canucks games as a Canuck fan would.

That said, he's not saying that Edler is useless - he cited Edler as being on that top-50 list as well. (I'd wonder why Hamhuis wasn't included, but I don't know the list in question at all, except that his mentioning of same has revealed that apparently Bleacher Report is no longer filtered out here. )

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Old
09-28-2012, 09:48 PM
  #227
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This is the Bleacher Report rankings he's talking about:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...n-of-2012-2013

I'm not sure how much stock you can put in that list... they also have guys like Colaiacovo and Kuba on that list as well.... who here thinks that either of those guys deserves to be higher on the list of top dmen over Hamhuis, Carlson, Staal, or Hamonic (just to name a few that didn't make that cut).

And if you're going to use that list to rank between guys like Edler and Nikitin, you should note that Nikitin and Wisnewski are both near the bottom of the list (#48/49 spots), while Edler is sitting at #12. Also note how both Jackets defenders are also listed below defensive stalwarts like Colaiacovo, Kuba.. while Jack Johnson is sitting behind Carle, Boychuk and White.

So is this considered a reliable ranking? and if so, do we ignore their own rankings?

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Old
09-28-2012, 09:57 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
This is the Bleacher Report rankings he's talking about:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...n-of-2012-2013

I'm not sure how much stock you can put in that list... they also have guys like Colaiacovo and Kuba on
that list as well.... who here thinks that either of those guys deserves to be higher on the list of top dmen over Hamhuis, Carlson, Staal, or Hamonic (just to name a few that
didn't make that cut).

And if you're going to use that list to rank between guys like Edler and Nikitin, you should note that
Nikitin and Wisnewski are both near the bottom of the list (#48/49 spots), while Edler is sitting at #12. Also note how both Jackets defenders are also listed below defensive stalwarts like
Colaiacovo, Kuba.. while Jack Johnson is sitting behind Carle, Boychuk and White.

So is this considered a reliable ranking? and if so, do we ignore their own rankings?
That entire list is a joke... Guys like Hamhuis and Staal not making it behind guys like Colaiacovo is pathetic. Bleacher report cannot be taken seriously. It's only good if you want a laugh.

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Old
09-28-2012, 10:01 PM
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFITO View Post

I'm not sure how much stock you can put in that list...

And if you're going to use that list to rank between guys like Edler and Nikitin, you should note that Nikitin and Wisnewski are both near the bottom of the list (#48/49 spots), while Edler is sitting at #12.
I don't think it's a very good list but going off of it:

Vancouver:
Edler #12
Bieksa #28
Garrison #33

CBJ:
Jack Johnson #39
Nikitin #48
Wiz #49

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Old
09-29-2012, 01:10 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bizoncol View Post
Speaking of the tools. Zherdev also had all the tools, but didn't have a tool-box. Right now I'd rather have a guy with less tools, but with a tool-box. Just like Nikitin. BTW the Jackets and Rangers are the only 2 NHL teams with 3 top-50 NHL defensemen according to bleacherreport. Bieksa and Edler are the only two from the Nucks who made the list. So if you wanna sell the defense you better look at the other place.
Or I can look at the 2011-2012 Norris Trophy Voting and see Vancouver has three guys on the list, and CBJ has none...

I don't mean to slag CBJ's d, this is just getting pathetic. We have an Allstar defense man, and 3 Norris Trophy vote getters. But hey take who ever you want.

That guy with the tool box is still an Allstar and Norris trophy candidate. Can you say the same about any of your guys?

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Old
09-29-2012, 04:08 PM
  #231
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Any top 50 list (or top 15 for that matter) that doesn't include Dan Hamhuis isn't worth mentioning.

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Old
09-29-2012, 04:20 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
I'd be tempted to put Hamhuis ahead personally, but, meh. He's good enough that it's not out of the question, and I don't watch as many Canucks games as a Canuck fan would.

That said, he's not saying that Edler is useless - he cited Edler as being on that top-50 list as well. (I'd wonder why Hamhuis wasn't included, but I don't know the list in question at all, except that his mentioning of same has revealed that apparently Bleacher Report is no longer filtered out here. )
As a Canuck fan you are 100% in having Hamhuis ahead of Edler on the depth chart. Too many Nuck fans are stat watchers and fail to truly see how poorly Edler plays. A person who knows anything about defensive positioning understands that Edler is a defensive liability more often than he is an offensive saviour (thankfully Nucks have solid goaltending). Hamhuis has the consistency that Edler needs to even be considered Norris material, unfortunately Edler has not shown that he is capable.

Considering who Vancouver currently has on defence, I would gladly give up Edler+ if it meant getting back Jack Johnson, who I consider to be a better overall defenceman than Edler.

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Old
09-29-2012, 04:35 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
As a Canuck fan you are 100% in having Hamhuis ahead of Edler on the depth chart. Too many Nuck fans are stat watchers and fail to truly see how poorly Edler plays. A person who knows anything about defensive positioning understands that Edler is a defensive liability more often than he is an offensive saviour (thankfully Nucks have solid goaltending). Hamhuis has the consistency that Edler needs to even be considered Norris material, unfortunately Edler has not shown that he is capable.

Considering who Vancouver currently has on defence, I would gladly give up Edler+ if it meant getting back Jack Johnson, who I consider to be a better overall defenceman than Edler.
That is insane to me. JJ played in front of great goaltending in LA but was a staggering minus numbers. He has as many if not more "brain cramps" than Edler.

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Old
09-29-2012, 04:39 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
That is insane to me. JJ played in front of great goaltending in LA but was a staggering minus numbers. He has as many if not more "brain cramps" than Edler.
Watching Jack Johnson play is favourable to looking at his stats. Yes he was a minus player and some of those were due to his mistakes (all players make them), but overall his game is more solid than Edler's.

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Old
09-29-2012, 09:53 PM
  #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
Watching Jack Johnson play is favourable to looking at his stats. Yes he was a minus player and some of those were due to his mistakes (all players make them), but overall his game is more solid than Edler's.
Couldn't disagree more. JJ might have a slight offensive edge but the guy isn't a physical player and makes far more stupid plays than Edler.

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Old
09-29-2012, 10:06 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
Watching Jack Johnson play is favourable to looking at his stats. Yes he was a minus player and some of those were due to his mistakes (all players make them), but overall his game is more solid than Edler's.
disagree completely, outside of the playoffs last year edler play has seemed better than JJ.

Not having a great partner this year seriously hurt edler.

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Old
09-29-2012, 10:34 PM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
That is insane to me. JJ played in front of great goaltending in LA but was a staggering minus numbers. He has as many if not more "brain cramps" than Edler.
And JJ was a plus player on Columbus without even good goaltending.

Goes to show what happens when people look at plus minus as a relevant stat.

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Old
09-29-2012, 11:07 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
Dude you make Edler sound like he's useless. He's the best defense-man on a deep Canucks roster. Your criticisms of Edler having lousy hockey sense are so off-base i'm not sure where to start. Get a clue..watch the guy play and stop using single you-tube videos to try to prove your lame point.
Edler isn't the Canucks best defenseman.

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09-29-2012, 11:12 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
As a Canuck fan you are 100% in having Hamhuis ahead of Edler on the depth chart. Too many Nuck fans are stat watchers and fail to truly see how poorly Edler plays. A person who knows anything about defensive positioning understands that Edler is a defensive liability more often than he is an offensive saviour (thankfully Nucks have solid goaltending). Hamhuis has the consistency that Edler needs to even be considered Norris material, unfortunately Edler has not shown that he is capable.

Considering who Vancouver currently has on defence, I would gladly give up Edler+ if it meant getting back Jack Johnson, who I consider to be a better overall defenceman than Edler.
Actually I consider myself a stat watcher, and Edler's advanced stats do not support the popular groupthink notion that he is our top defenseman. He's not even better than Bieksa (especially defensively).

However, those same advanced stats suggest Jack Johnson was one of the Blue Jackets worst defensemen too.

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Old
09-29-2012, 11:13 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
watching jack johnson play is favourable to looking at his stats. Yes he was a minus player and some of those were due to his mistakes (all players make them), but overall his game is more solid than edler's.
huh?!

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Old
09-29-2012, 11:26 PM
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Actually I consider myself a stat watcher, and Edler's advanced stats do not support the popular groupthink notion that he is our top defenseman. He's not even better than Bieksa (especially defensively).

However, those same advanced stats suggest Jack Johnson was one of the Blue Jackets worst defensemen too.
Which, to me, doesn't hold up compared to the visible difference in the way the team played when he was on the ice.

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Old
09-30-2012, 02:54 AM
  #242
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Originally Posted by candyman82 View Post
Which, to me, doesn't hold up compared to the visible difference in the way the team played when he was on the ice.
Difference is its easy for someone's bias to show up in how they watch a player, whereas the stats aren't biased at all.

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Old
09-30-2012, 10:56 AM
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Difference is its easy for someone's bias to show up in how they watch a player, whereas the stats aren't biased at all.
Most of those advanced stats are collected year-round and don't attempt to separate games played for different teams. Or, IOW, JMFJ's stats there include all the games he played for LA that year, in which he was... less than awesome. So there's still pitfalls.

He was considerably better when he came here - and so was Wisniewski, while they were working together. Time will tell if he keeps it up.

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09-30-2012, 11:53 AM
  #244
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
disagree completely, outside of the playoffs last year edler play has seemed better than JJ.

Not having a great partner this year seriously hurt edler.
Edler is a strain to his partner's abilities, not the other way around.
How well do you think Garrison will do with Edler compared to Salo?

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huh?!
Read it slowly and sound out the words. You will understand

Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Difference is its easy for someone's bias to show up in how they watch a player, whereas the stats aren't biased at all.
Unfortunately those stats are taken by people who have personal biases. Especially when it is the home rinks (some not all) recording hits, shots, faceoffs etc. The staticians are flawed so the stats are flawed. Since advanced staticians use data that is flawed in their perfect equations, the results are also flawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Most of those advanced stats are collected year-round and don't attempt to separate games played for different teams. Or, IOW, JMFJ's stats there include all the games he played for LA that year, in which he was... less than awesome. So there's still pitfalls.

He was considerably better when he came here - and so was Wisniewski, while they were working together. Time will tell if he keeps it up.
I would take Wiz or Johnson over Edler, but I know such a thing would never happen. I hope we cut Edler loose in exchange for a solid rookie D.

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Old
09-30-2012, 12:39 PM
  #245
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^What are you saying?

Edler will play better with Garrison than with Salo, because Garrison > Salo.

And if you don't think stats are a good measuring stick, then what makes your opinion of how good Edler is better than everyone else who watched him?

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Old
09-30-2012, 01:15 PM
  #246
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I would take Wiz or Johnson over Edler, but I know such a thing would never happen. I hope we cut Edler loose in exchange for a solid rookie D.

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Old
09-30-2012, 01:24 PM
  #247
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So now JJ is better than Edler. Okay...

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Old
09-30-2012, 02:08 PM
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Most of those advanced stats are collected year-round and don't attempt to separate games played for different teams. Or, IOW, JMFJ's stats there include all the games he played for LA that year, in which he was... less than awesome. So there's still pitfalls.

He was considerably better when he came here - and so was Wisniewski, while they were working together. Time will tell if he keeps it up.
Fair enough. I would be interested in JJ's stats in just a CBJ uniform, although I would be surprised if they were better than Edler's.

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Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post

Unfortunately those stats are taken by people who have personal biases. Especially when it is the home rinks (some not all) recording hits, shots, faceoffs etc. The staticians are flawed so the stats are flawed. Since advanced staticians use data that is flawed in their perfect equations, the results are also flawed.
What the hell are you talking about? CORSI stats, Zone Starts, etc. don't carry the bias that you are claiming.

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Old
09-30-2012, 06:58 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Actually I consider myself a stat watcher, and Edler's advanced stats do not support the popular groupthink notion that he is our top defenseman. He's not even better than Bieksa (especially defensively).

However, those same advanced stats suggest Jack Johnson was one of the Blue Jackets worst defensemen too.
Based on this would you consider that Ballard may push Edler to the 3rd pairing?

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Old
09-30-2012, 08:41 PM
  #250
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Based on this would you consider that Ballard may push Edler to the 3rd pairing?
Why would you say that?

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