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Old
09-30-2012, 09:12 PM
  #251
Crede777
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Fair enough. I would be interested in JJ's stats in just a CBJ uniform, although I would be surprised if they were better than Edler's.
His play in a CBJ jersey, on a line with Wisniewski, was much better than his play in LA. The contrast is so evident that some may believe it is an unsustainable trend. Similar to the contrast of Nikitin before being traded and paired with Tyutin versus after, although Nikitin showed a larger sample size and drew plenty of tough minutes and zone starts.

I don't think anybody is arguing that Jack Johnson was more than a 2nd pairing defensive liability in LA or that Nikitin didn't deserve to be put in the press box on some nights in St. Louis. What they are arguing, I think, is that those same players are very different in Columbus.

BTW, Wisniewski is actually the same in Columbus as he was in NYI/Montreal. He was only a few points off his pace from last season where he earned the big contract.

If Columbus were to somehow acquire a player like Edler, or if Murray quickly becomes a top-notch defenseman, I think we won't see "Pairings 1, 2, and 3." We would see 3 solid pairings that divide up minutes.

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10-01-2012, 01:16 AM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
^What are you saying?

Edler will play better with Garrison than with Salo, because Garrison > Salo.

And if you don't think stats are a good measuring stick, then what makes your opinion of how good Edler is better than everyone else who watched him?
I think that Garrison will play a very similar offensive game to that of Salo, but will his defensive play be on par? Edler was saved on many occasions by Salo, does Garrison possess the same defensive acumen that Salo does? I'm not yet convinced he does.

As for the bolded; I don't think stats are the ONLY measuring stick. My opinions are just that, opinions. I don't say if they're better or worse than others in this thread, that's for other people to decide. I just write what I see/know to be true, not what others want to hear. I have watched Edler play for 5 years (6 if you count his one year playing for Kelowna Rockets) at a position I know very well. IMO he doesn't do as well as homer Canuck fans think.

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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
What the hell are you talking about? CORSI stats, Zone Starts, etc. don't carry the bias that you are claiming.
Stats are recorded by people not machines. All advanced and basic stats are influenced by bias, especially CORSI. CORSI relies on shots directed to a net, have you not noticed how often staticians have different opinions on what constitutes a "shot"? Throw in tipped-shots and blocked shots and you get a hodge-podge of crap that gets turned into gold. Watch the games, understand the positions. Then evaluate a player's ability.

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10-01-2012, 01:21 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post
I think that Garrison will play a very similar offensive game to that of Salo, but will his defensive play be on par? Edler was saved on many occasions by Salo, does Garrison possess the same defensive acumen that Salo does? I'm not yet convinced he does.

As for the bolded; I don't think stats are the ONLY measuring stick. My opinions are just that, opinions. I don't say if they're better or worse than others in this thread, that's for other people to decide. I just write what I see/know to be true, not what others want to hear. I have watched Edler play for 5 years (6 if you count his one year playing for Kelowna Rockets) at a position I know very well. IMO he doesn't do as well as homer Canuck fans think.

Garrison is defensively much more sound than the Salo of last year. Yes, I think it wil make a difference(assuming he has no problem playing the right side).

And HF has him rated as a top 15 defenseman in the league, he's certainly shown quite a bit of offensive talent, and a steady partner will help him shine even more. Although there's no real way to argue one way or another based on how we watched him.

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10-01-2012, 01:23 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Garrison is defensively much more sound than the Salo of last year. Yes, I think it wil make a difference(assuming he has no problem playing the right side).

And HF has him rated as a top 15 defenseman in the league, he's certainly shown quite a bit of offensive talent, and a steady partner will help him shine even more. Although there's no real way to argue one way or another based on how we watched him.
True enough. If Edler sticks around, I hope you're right.

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10-01-2012, 04:59 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Garrison is defensively much more sound than the Salo of last year. Yes, I think it wil make a difference(assuming he has no problem playing the right side).

And HF has him rated as a top 15 defenseman in the league, he's certainly shown quite a bit of offensive talent, and a steady partner will help him shine even more. Although there's no real way to argue one way or another based on how we watched him.
Garrison is a rock on defense. Any goals he scores is just a bonus like for the Panthers last season.

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10-01-2012, 11:17 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professorchaos View Post

Stats are recorded by people not machines. All advanced and basic stats are influenced by bias, especially CORSI. CORSI relies on shots directed to a net, have you not noticed how often staticians have different opinions on what constitutes a "shot"? Throw in tipped-shots and blocked shots and you get a hodge-podge of crap that gets turned into gold. Watch the games, understand the positions. Then evaluate a player's ability.
Actually shots directed at a goal isn't all that hard to judge. Does the puck travel in a certain direction or not? Simple observation.

And what makes you think a professional statistician is more biased than a mere fan of a team?

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10-01-2012, 04:54 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Actually shots directed at a goal isn't all that hard to judge. Does the puck travel in a certain direction or not? Simple observation.

And what makes you think a professional statistician is more biased than a mere fan of a team?
You would think so, wouldn't you? Not a bad observation for a mere fan of a team.

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10-01-2012, 05:15 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I disagree. Not to mention I would take Edler over the LA JJ as well.
Disagree with what?? Rank them HONESTLY as if there was 2 of the same exact player in the league on separate teams, the Canucks n Bluejackets. Hell you guys might suprise yourselves with how you rank people, or not.

Help yourselves to help me prove my point by closing your eyes n IMAGINING Jack Johnson flying down the ice in a beautiful Canuck uniform.

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10-01-2012, 05:20 PM
  #259
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Disagree with what?? Rank them HONESTLY as if there was 2 of the same exact player in the league on separate teams, the Canucks n Bluejackets. Hell you guys might suprise yourselves with how you rank people, or not.

Help yourselves to help me prove my point by closing your eyes n IMAGINING Jack Johnson flying down the ice in a beautiful Canuck uniform.
I don't see where you're going with this. I think even most CBJ fans would also agree Edler is better than Johnson. Even you put him before Johnson on your rankings on each team.

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10-01-2012, 05:30 PM
  #260
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Johnson isnt even close to Edler.

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10-01-2012, 05:53 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I don't see where you're going with this. I think even most CBJ fans would also agree Edler is better than Johnson. Even you put him before Johnson on your rankings on each team.
I think you missed the point of that presentation, which I admittedly found a little heavy-handed but nonetheless darkly amusing.

The idea is to suggest that Edler is being hailed as so overwhelmingly better than JMFJ (as opposed to, say, there being a potential reasonable debate about the players) because Edler plays for the Canucks while JMFJ plays for the Blue Jackets. This is why "Canucks JJ" rated higher than "CBJ Edler" in that post.

That said, it's still a tangent.

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10-01-2012, 06:12 PM
  #262
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I got lost when we started discussing cloning players.

I know Edler is grossly overrated by some Canucks fans, but I still think he's better than JJ. I need to see sustained success out of JJ after his horrendous production in LA to consider him better than Edler.

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10-01-2012, 06:22 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by thebus2288 View Post
Disagree with what?? Rank them HONESTLY as if there was 2 of the same exact player in the league on separate teams, the Canucks n Bluejackets. Hell you guys might suprise yourselves with how you rank people, or not.

Help yourselves to help me prove my point by closing your eyes n IMAGINING Jack Johnson flying down the ice in a beautiful Canuck uniform.
OK, your game and rules, and my honest answer for value, of a defender, in a vacuum:

1 (T) Edler-Van, Edler-CLB

3 (T) Johnson-CLB, Johnson-Van

A player doesn't hold any more value just based on the team he plays for if it is a completely level playing field. Differing factors might contribute to one team being more resistant to a trade then another for a similar player, but if it is infact a vacuum trade, those factors are moot. I value Edler more because I have seen him play much, much more often then Johnson. That isn't a shot at Johnson, but because I can't evaluate on perfectly level terms, I will value the evil I know, and can defend, higher. That doesn't mean if Edler was traded to Columbus that all the sudden the bottom would fall out of his stock though.

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10-01-2012, 07:14 PM
  #264
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I don't know if this is going to add to this discussing at all but here's how the Hockey News ranking of defenseman in their October 2012 issue:
01. Doughty
02. Chara
03. Weber
04. Karlsson
05. Suter
06. Pietrangelo
07. McDonagh
08. Keith
09. Yandle
10. Letang
11. Campbell
12. Subban
13. Edler
14. Shattenkirk
15. Boyle
16. Girardi
17. Timonen
18. Del Zottto
19. Seabrook
20. Phaneuf

I don't agree with the list, but it deffinitly shows that Edler is considered a very good defenseman in general. JJ is not on the list.

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10-01-2012, 08:44 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I don't know if this is going to add to this discussing at all but here's how the Hockey News ranking of defenseman in their October 2012 issue:
01. Doughty
02. Chara
03. Weber
04. Karlsson
05. Suter
06. Pietrangelo
07. McDonagh
08. Keith
09. Yandle
10. Letang
11. Campbell
12. Subban
13. Edler
14. Shattenkirk
15. Boyle
16. Girardi
17. Timonen
18. Del Zottto
19. Seabrook
20. Phaneuf

I don't agree with the list, but it deffinitly shows that Edler is considered a very good defenseman in general. JJ is not on the list.
No list is perfect to any of us; But if there's one thing for sure it's that the general consensus will most likely have Edler significantly higher than J. Johnson.

As much as Canucks fans tend to over-rate their own players (much like any fan base), there is a larger case of fans under-valuing Edler in here. To say he is a defensive liability is hysterical. Edler is better than average at both ends of the ice, hence why he would make the top 20 on most lists.

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10-01-2012, 08:57 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Why would you say that?
Most of the posters consider Hamhuis and Garrison are stronger defensemen than Edler. Personally I tend to agree with that analysis for the most part. You just posted that you feel, especially defensively, that Bieksa is a better defenseman than Edler. That leaves Edler as a #4D on the Canucks at best.

Personally I think Ballard is a far better defenseman than he has been credited as lately. Ballard more or less inherited the Canuck boo birds when they abandoned Bieksa. Ballard as a LD is not going to challenge Bieksa for a RD spot. The only top 4 roster spot Ballard could challenge for would the second pairing LD spot. i.e. Edler.

That does not mean Edler is not a ligitimate NHL #4D, I just think Ballard hasn't shown Canuck fans yet just how good a defenseman he can be. I think Ballard will get things together and turn out to be a ligitimate NHL level #3D and ahead of Bieksa. And to think, not one of the Canuck defensemen are or even have the potential to be a true NHL #1D.

A NHL #1D being defined as having all the skill of a #2D plus the added ability to occationally individually control the outcome of the game. Example, think Chara.


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10-01-2012, 09:28 PM
  #267
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Edler is so bad in this thread that Ballard is now competing for that #4 spot with him on the Canucks

Edler is Vancouver's top defenseman and AV uses him as such. Edler would be the top defenseman on a lot of teams, and there's probably only one or two teams where Edler wouldn't be considered one of the top 2 defenseman on the roster.

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10-01-2012, 10:16 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
Edler is so bad in this thread that Ballard is now competing for that #4 spot with him on the Canucks

Edler is Vancouver's top defenseman and AV uses him as such. Edler would be the top defenseman on a lot of teams, and there's probably only one or two teams where Edler wouldn't be considered one of the top 2 defenseman on the roster.
Yes there are some teams that Edler would play first pairing. Most of those teams any of Hamhuis, Bieksa, Garrison, Ballard, Edler or even Salo last year would be able to play first pairing, but on the Canucks Edler has up to now has played second pairing. The Canucks have a very strong core defense and those core defensemen a really grouped tightly between a #2D (a defenseman who generally plays a totally solid defense, but doesn't have that extra control the outcome of the game gear) to a #4D (a defenseman who has the potential to step into first pairing duties if required but tends to have occational trouble against a team's top skilled forwards).

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10-02-2012, 01:08 PM
  #269
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OK, your game and rules, and my honest answer for value, of a defender, in a vacuum:

1 (T) Edler-Van, Edler-CLB

3 (T) Johnson-CLB, Johnson-Van

A player doesn't hold any more value just based on the team he plays for if it is a completely level playing field. Differing factors might contribute to one team being more resistant to a trade then another for a similar player, but if it is infact a vacuum trade, those factors are moot. I value Edler more because I have seen him play much, much more often then Johnson. That isn't a shot at Johnson, but because I can't evaluate on perfectly level terms, I will value the evil I know, and can defend, higher. That doesn't mean if Edler was traded to Columbus that all the sudden the bottom would fall out of his stock though.
Well answered bud. I agree completely with the logic besides I value JJ's game a little more than Edlers, prolly for the same reasons you listed. And the point I was trying to make about the rankings which you hit and missed at the same time is all about the opinion of certain teams players from their fans. So while you answered the rankings "correctly", I honest to god/buddha/allah really think most Vancouver fans DONT think that way. Cloning aside, if Edler played for CBJ and JJ in Van we'd be hearing about how much better JJ is....and it would most definately be reflected in those Top-whatever D man lists. True story


Last edited by spiny norman: 10-02-2012 at 02:30 PM. Reason: unnecessary
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Old
10-02-2012, 11:45 PM
  #270
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What hath this thread wrought?

Instead of starting a new thread, i'm going to ask this here:

Columbus has gone from having an average D to being absolutely stacked in the course of 1.5 seasons. It's highly likely the top-2 pairs will be

Johnson-Wisnewski
Tyutin-Nikitin

and the bottom pair will be some combination of

Moore
Aucoin
Savard
Erixon
Murray

With Murray and Erixon both pretty much NHL-ready, CBJ has somewhat of a logjam of talent. Vancouver currently has a dearth of RHS-D men (banking on Garrison to play the right, which may very well be fine) after Bieksa and Tanev, and no prospects knocking down the door in this position. Columbus lacks pure offence in terms of prospects and roster players.

How much would Savard cost? A winger prospect like Rodin (our best behind Jensen and Kassian) + a 2nd? Or are we moving into blue-chip/1st territory?

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10-02-2012, 11:53 PM
  #271
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I'd be very interested in Savard. Presumably a Columbus defenseman would have to be traded at some point, with Murray/Erixon/Savard in the pipeline as well as Tyutin-Nikitin and Johnson-Wisniewski.

What would Columbus want for him?

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10-03-2012, 12:07 AM
  #272
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Even Goloubef would be of interest in a prospect-prospect or prospect-pick swap. I could be totally off base here, but it seems like his development has stalled to an extent. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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10-03-2012, 12:25 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Yossarian54 View Post
How much would Savard cost? A winger prospect like Rodin (our best behind Jensen and Kassian) + a 2nd? Or are we moving into blue-chip/1st territory?
Brushing up against the latter. Savard is very highly thought of, so we'd probably need something more significant back. We have some small concerns about our RD as well ("what if Nikitin abruptly implodes, or if Wisniewski's injury issues never go away"), so we're not particularly eager to move someone who can play there at a high level. But it's still feasible. I just hesitate to try to come up with a value or comparable before we've seen the current pairings play again, though. I want to see if we'll need our insurance policy before we send it away.

Earlier in the thread, there was a Rodin-for-Goloubef discussion, though, which seemed plausible.

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Even Goloubef would be of interest in a prospect-prospect or prospect-pick swap. I could be totally off base here, but it seems like his development has stalled to an extent. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
That's probably fair. He hasn't regressed, but he's not advancing like folks expected.

He's had a couple of injuries too, which hasn't helped.

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10-03-2012, 12:30 PM
  #274
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I don't agree with the list, but it deffinitly shows that Edler is considered a very good defenseman in general. JJ is not on the list.
I think as a Canuck fan it should be easy to dismiss any list that doesn't have Hamhuis as our highest rated defensemen. He's so far and away better than the others that a list that doesn't reflect that obviously isn't very in depth or well thought out.

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10-03-2012, 12:36 PM
  #275
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I think as a Canuck fan it should be easy to dismiss any list that doesn't have Hamhuis as our highest rated defensemen. He's so far and away better than the others that a list that doesn't reflect that obviously isn't very in depth or well thought out.
He isn't nearly as versatile as Edler is, which is why he's not #1 in my books. Edler does it all, and while he isn't as smooth defensively as Hamhuis, he's much better offensively. The Hamhuis vs. Edler debate is very similar to the Suter vs. Weber debate that existed in Nashville for so many years, who wins really depends on what you put value in when grading defenseman. Personally, I think it would be much more difficult to replace Edler than it would be Hamhuis. We can find great defensive defensemen, we grabbed Garrison for example via UFA this summer. You can't find a defenseman with Edler's skill set though, you essentially need to draft them or get lucky and extremely overpay.

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