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J. Kurri & W. Gretzky vs. M. Lemieux & J. Jagr

View Poll Results: Which duo will you take?
J. Kurri & W. Gretzky 152 51.88%
J. Jagr & M. Lemieux 141 48.12%
Voters: 293. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-23-2012, 04:23 PM
  #51
Stars and Bolts
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Lemieux/Jagr. The difference between Jagr and Kurri is far bigger than the difference between Gretzky and Lemieux. Kurri was basically a product of Gretzky, while Jagr won MVP without Lemieux.

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Old
09-23-2012, 04:25 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Only if you're factoring in longevity. As far as peak performance, Lemieux/Jagr is easily the better pair.

.
No.

Gretzky's peak was far greater than Lemieux's ever was. Gretzky's best season, he won the scoring title by 69%. Lemieux never came close to that.

Gretzky's peak and career value give the Oilers pair the win.

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Old
09-23-2012, 04:26 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Stars and Bolts View Post
Lemieux/Jagr. The difference between Jagr and Kurri is far bigger than the difference between Gretzky and Lemieux. Kurri was basically a product of Gretzky, while Jagr won MVP without Lemieux.
That is purely uneducated horse ****.

Kurri had MORE points Gretzky's first year in LA than Gretzky's last year in EDM.

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Old
09-23-2012, 04:34 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stars and Bolts View Post
Lemieux/Jagr. The difference between Jagr and Kurri is far bigger than the difference between Gretzky and Lemieux. Kurri was basically a product of Gretzky, while Jagr won MVP without Lemieux.
I don't think you will find anyone suggesting that Jagr was not a better hockey player than Kurri, but to suggest that Kurri was a product of Gretzky is completely wrong. Kurri was a fantastic hockey player. And what makes this rather interesting question somewhat difficult to answer is that he was almost the perfect complement to Gretzky.

I am biased because I watched these guys play hundreds of times live. But if I had to go into a game that I needed to win I'd choose Gretzky and Kurri. Of the four Kurri was far an away the best defensively, something that few on here are giving any weight. He had over 600 goals and nearly 1400 pints, but he was also one of the very best defensive forwards of his generation.

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Old
09-23-2012, 06:40 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I don't think you will find anyone suggesting that Jagr was not a better hockey player than Kurri, but to suggest that Kurri was a product of Gretzky is completely wrong. Kurri was a fantastic hockey player. And what makes this rather interesting question somewhat difficult to answer is that he was almost the perfect complement to Gretzky.

I am biased because I watched these guys play hundreds of times live. But if I had to go into a game that I needed to win I'd choose Gretzky and Kurri. Of the four Kurri was far an away the best defensively, something that few on here are giving any weight. He had over 600 goals and nearly 1400 pints, but he was also one of the very best defensive forwards of his generation.
Ok perhaps calling Kurri a product of Gretzky is a stretch, but the point is he wasn't an MVP caliber player the way the other 3 were.

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Old
09-23-2012, 06:55 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Stars and Bolts View Post
Ok perhaps calling Kurri a product of Gretzky is a stretch, but the point is he wasn't an MVP caliber player the way the other 3 were.
He was not as good as any of the three, but he was a very key player on one of the best teams of all time.

In fact, Kurri might be the most underrated of the Oilers core players. He was probably the Oilers MVP and one of the leagues most valuable players in 1988-1989. Given that Mark Messier was still on that team this is saying something. He is also #3 all time in playoff points so no matter how you slice it he was a tremendous hockey player.

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Old
09-23-2012, 06:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Kurri is one of the most underrated players of all time.

Gretz/Kurri IMO
Probably on this section of HFBoards where age plays a factor and you get comments like he was a product of Gretzky, but not on the whole or in this comparison.

Jagr trounches him, it's just that Gretzky almost does the same to Lemeiux. Kurri should be compared to guys like Selanne or Brett Hull, not Jagr.

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Old
09-23-2012, 07:18 PM
  #58
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As many people have said, the gap between Jagr and Kurri is too big. It's ideal to just pick Lemieux/Jagr and put them on separate lines.

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Old
09-23-2012, 07:28 PM
  #59
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99 All the way.

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Old
09-23-2012, 07:32 PM
  #60
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Jagr is far superior to Kurri, Mario and Gretzky are a wash.

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Old
09-23-2012, 07:33 PM
  #61
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Mario/Jagr. Surprised this poll is close.

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Old
09-23-2012, 08:48 PM
  #62
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Kurri and Gretz just based on chemistry. Those two just worked together so perfect. I think if you break it down individually Jägr probably tops Kurri but based on proven chemistry the duo of 99 and 17 was probably the greatest in history.

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Old
09-23-2012, 09:51 PM
  #63
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Wayne = Mario, but Jagr >>>Kurri. Mario/Jagr easily.

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Old
09-23-2012, 10:38 PM
  #64
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I think Jarri Kurri is being tremendously underrated.

Edit: And as great as Lemieux was he is not a wash with Gretzky. There is zero evidence in his favour, both took games over on an insane level but Gretzky was the more productive player with the longer more dominant peak. Gretzky is a guy who one year had 215 points (he had 200 plus 4 times, and 190+ for 5 seasons straight) to lead the league in scoring by 74 points over Lemieux who was second with 141. In Lemieux's best season he had 199 points and even then he only had 31 more points than Gretzky, and 44 points more than 3rd place Yzerman. This was a record breaking season where 4 players got over 150 points with Bernie Nicholls also getting 150 (with exception to this season only Gretzky and Lemieux have ever had over 150 points in a year). Lemieux's 2nd best season of 168 points is only 5 points better than Gretzky's best season for assists when he got 163. Believe it or not in terms of stats Kurri and Jagr are fairly close, Gretzky and Lemieux not so much. Gretzky literally has 1134 more points and despite a career over 500 games longer a better ppg too.


Last edited by Eskimo44: 09-23-2012 at 11:10 PM.
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Old
09-24-2012, 12:32 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
Believe it or not in terms of stats Kurri and Jagr are fairly close,
That's because Kurri played in the 80s and on Gretzky's wing. Jagr's offensive exploits are on a totally different level.

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Old
09-24-2012, 12:45 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
I think Jarri Kurri is being tremendously underrated.

Edit: And as great as Lemieux was he is not a wash with Gretzky. There is zero evidence in his favour, both took games over on an insane level but Gretzky was the more productive player with the longer more dominant peak. Gretzky is a guy who one year had 215 points (he had 200 plus 4 times, and 190+ for 5 seasons straight) to lead the league in scoring by 74 points over Lemieux who was second with 141. In Lemieux's best season he had 199 points and even then he only had 31 more points than Gretzky, and 44 points more than 3rd place Yzerman. This was a record breaking season where 4 players got over 150 points with Bernie Nicholls also getting 150 (with exception to this season only Gretzky and Lemieux have ever had over 150 points in a year). Lemieux's 2nd best season of 168 points is only 5 points better than Gretzky's best season for assists when he got 163. Believe it or not in terms of stats Kurri and Jagr are fairly close, Gretzky and Lemieux not so much. Gretzky literally has 1134 more points and despite a career over 500 games longer a better ppg too.
It's not like Mario only played games during his prime years and retired early to keep his ppg high, he missed multiple seasons while he was still the best player in the world. And Lemieux actually has a slightly higher adjusted career ppg average.

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Old
09-24-2012, 01:41 AM
  #67
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Crazy close poll. There is a lot of posts that imply the other duo to be fairly better and some posts that says this is close. It seems that basically it just comes down to preference and there is no right or wrong answer. I picked Gretzky/Kurri but could see why someone would take Lemieux/Jagr.

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Old
09-24-2012, 06:18 AM
  #68
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Picked Lemiex and Jagr. I know Gretzky has all the points but with all due respect to him, Mario was the best player I have ever seen and Jagr trumps Kurri.

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Old
09-24-2012, 08:13 AM
  #69
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Lemieux and Jagr

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09-24-2012, 10:58 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
Bolded is probably true. I'm not necessarily for Lemieux and Jagr on career value, but it made me stop and think to say the least.

Watching the players play would be the best alternative to raw totals and cup counting, but I also prefer scoring finishes. Gretzky vs Lemieux has been debated ad nauseam so I'll leave that alone as we all know how it ends. But Kurri vs Jagr is more interesting and gives us-

Top 10 Goal-scoring finishes of
Kurri: 1, 2, 3, 5
Jagr: 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 9

Top 10 Assist finishes of-
Kurri: 9, 9, 10
Jagr: 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 5, 7, 7, 9

Top 10 Points finishes of-
Kurri: 2, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9
Jagr: 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 6, 8, 9

There's a significant edge for Jagr here. If Jagr's 5 scoring titles were in the same scoring environment as Kurri's peak he'd probably have an extra 100 or so points there alone, not to mention the rest of his career and he's going through his 3rd! lockout. I think it's also fair to say Gretzky had more influence on Kurri's scoring than Lemieux had on Jagr's. And if Jagr and Lemieux had over-lapping primes like Gretz and Kurri they would likely have more than 2 cups.
While I agree that Jagr is still easily the better individual player vs. Kurri.. you do have to factor in that Kurri is playing Selke caliber defense while putting up that offense as well.

Jagr is still obviously better, particularly when factoring in longevity, but the gap isn't quite as bad as it looks at first glance.

This is a tough poll.. factoring in injuries limits Lemieux very significantly over his career.. makes it practically even for me. Jagr is a huge upgrade over Kurri -- but Lemieux missed a lot of time and Kurri + Gretzky is a match made in hockey heaven.

So I err on the side of caution and choose the sure thing: Gretzky.

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Old
09-24-2012, 02:58 PM
  #71
Rorschach
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Mario should have broken Wayne's single season scoring record. As a single athlete, he's better than Wayne. But Gretzky is far more valuable because he can make the other four guys on his unit way better and even affect the second unit too. His value goes beyond one single player's value.

Kurri on the other hand is a guy who can score in the clutch like Jagr but at the same time play All-Star defense while scoring 50 goals and a hundred points. Heck when he was an old man on the Kings, he led the league in +/- for half the season until the team collapsed from too many injuries, playing as the Kings' first line CENTER! Without Gretzky!

Personally if this was a straight up Jagr/Kurri poll even without 99 n 66, I'd vote for Kurri. Just because you play the finisher role when on a line with Gretzky, doesn't mean that's all you are. Everyone has to defer to Wayne. Kurri could kill penalties and perform all sorts of non-scoring roles.


Last edited by Rorschach: 09-24-2012 at 03:07 PM.
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Old
09-25-2012, 10:41 AM
  #72
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The one that I started following and the one I feel in love with in the late 80's early 90's

Super Mario and JJ

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09-25-2012, 10:50 AM
  #73
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Tough to compare since Jagr and Mario at two guys you'd play on separate lines most of the time while Kurri n the Great One had unbelievable chemistry together. I'd probably take Jagr and Mario since both could carry their lines and keep other teams from keying on either one.

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Old
09-25-2012, 10:52 AM
  #74
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Greatzky and Kurri. The fact they were a scoring threat on the penalty kill as well speaks in their favor.

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Old
09-25-2012, 12:36 PM
  #75
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Lemieux =/= Gretzky

Everyone who says so is a moron.

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