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Better Dekes: Datsyuk vs. Kovalev

View Poll Results: Who has the better dekes?
Pavel Datsyuk 123 62.12%
Alexei Kovalev 75 37.88%
Voters: 198. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-30-2012, 09:21 PM
  #51
Saku11
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Too bad this isn't a statistic though and you can see the evidence with your eyeballs. I prefer the guy that routinely dekes NHL players over the guy that likes to show off my owning pylons
Exactly and at his prime time Kovalev was better at this Dats on actual players he didnt have to do this stuff on Trevor Thompson to look super impressive to Youtube people...

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Old
09-30-2012, 10:41 PM
  #52
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I voted for Pavel Datsyuk.

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10-01-2012, 08:52 AM
  #53
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Kovy with the purely skillful moves...

Datsyuk with his ability to do it night in night out, on anyone..

Kovy get's the edge, imo, however he lets himself down considerably by not showing up for 75% of games...

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10-01-2012, 12:03 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
Exactly and at his prime time Kovalev was better at this Dats on actual players he didnt have to do this stuff on Trevor Thompson to look super impressive to Youtube people...
What? lol this is too ignorant to actually make a legit reply too. at least Thompson isn't a pylon

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10-01-2012, 12:46 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
What? lol this is too ignorant to actually make a legit reply too. at least Thompson isn't a pylon
No, the ignorance in this thread is by all the people picking Dats that never really saw Kovalev in his prime.
Anyone else notice a theme here, that almost all of the people that did actually see Kovy with the Rags and Pens pick him.
Shocking right, I mean that never happens around here

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Old
10-01-2012, 01:42 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
No, the ignorance in this thread is by all the people picking Dats that never really saw Kovalev in his prime.
Anyone else notice a theme here, that almost all of the people that did actually see Kovy with the Rags and Pens pick him.
Shocking right, I mean that never happens around here
I usually pick up on this too, but I have to say I watched them both and I truly believe Datsyuk has better hands (and skates ). Although Kovalev's top 10 goals is a blast to watch. Yes I am a DRW homer but I feel like Datsyuk has a bigger sample size of dekes during the 2000s, simply because he was better at it and had more confidence in his game to pull his dekes game in and game out. Phoenix Coyotes vs Detroit Pavel Datsyuks 2011 Western Qtrs, is a great example of Datsyuk's skill-set. I don't think anyone has attempted more dekes and successfully pulled them off in a playoff series since early 1990s Lemieux.

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Old
10-01-2012, 02:03 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
No, the ignorance in this thread is by all the people picking Dats that never really saw Kovalev in his prime.
Anyone else notice a theme here, that almost all of the people that did actually see Kovy with the Rags and Pens pick him.
Shocking right, I mean that never happens around here
Maybe they are picking him because they are biased lol

Datsyuk has a pretty healthy lead in this poll so I don't think you can attribute it to that completely. Kovalev's prime really wasn't that long ago in relative terms... Datsyuk is just better at in-game dekes. Who cares if you are great at dekes but can't use them in a game effectively? Not saying Kovalev didn't use them in games, but just not as consistently or effectively as Datsyuk in my opinion

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10-01-2012, 02:50 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
What? lol this is too ignorant to actually make a legit reply too. at least Thompson isn't a pylon
You think a post that does not favour Pavel Datsyuk is not worth a legit reply? Oh boy!

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Old
10-01-2012, 02:51 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Maybe they are picking him because they are biased lol
And there isnt massive bias on this forum towards the other player in this poll?

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10-01-2012, 03:19 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
You think a post that does not favour Pavel Datsyuk is not worth a legit reply? Oh boy!
Because it didn't make any sense. People didn't vote for Datsyuk because he deked out Trevor Thompson, they voted for him because he routinely owns NHL players. People voted for Kovalev because he makes a good practice video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
And there isnt massive bias on this forum towards the other player in this poll?
Not anymore bias than Kovalev receives because he played in front of three major fan bases (Rangers, Pens, Canadiens) and he gets extra bonus points for apparently not trying half the time. Maybe he should have tried? I vote Datsyuk based on results, not boring "what ifs"

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10-01-2012, 03:50 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Because it didn't make any sense. People didn't vote for Datsyuk because he deked out Trevor Thompson, they voted for him because he routinely owns NHL players. People voted for Kovalev because he makes a good practice video.



Not anymore bias than Kovalev receives because he played in front of three major fan bases (Rangers, Pens, Canadiens) and he gets extra bonus points for apparently not trying half the time. Maybe he should have tried? I vote Datsyuk based on results, not boring "what ifs"
Kovalev in my mind owned NHL players more with his dekes. People voted Kovakel based on his practice videos just as much as people voted Datsyuk because he deked out Trevor Thompson. And the bias part, you cant be serious if you say any player on this planet receives nearly as much bias as Pavel Datsyuk on this forum. (minus P.Forsberg)

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10-01-2012, 10:29 PM
  #62
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I don't want to discredit what Kovalev did in his time with the Rangers, and he was an elite player with the Pens as well, but its not "ignorant" to suggest that Datsyuk is the better player with the superior skill set. Look what the guy has done to virtually every top player in the league, regardless of position. He's quite a bit ahead of Kovalev in terms of hockey IQ and the ability to make plays. I don't think its a stretch to say he has some of the best hands (on both sides of the puck) that the game has ever seen, and he's one of the best east/west players in the league who doesn't rely on just speed through the neutral zone to beat players.

That's the thing to me. Datsyuk's game is one of the most efficient in the league, regardless of how it looks on tv. His hands and vision have allowed him to draw players out of position, often more than one at a time, and rip open a defense. Kovalev had a better shot, but Datsyuk is the more deceptive shooter and stickhandler.

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Old
10-01-2012, 11:06 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Blues88 View Post
I don't want to discredit what Kovalev did in his time with the Rangers, and he was an elite player with the Pens as well, but its not "ignorant" to suggest that Datsyuk is the better player with the superior skill set. Look what the guy has done to virtually every top player in the league, regardless of position. He's quite a bit ahead of Kovalev in terms of hockey IQ and the ability to make plays. I don't think its a stretch to say he has some of the best hands (on both sides of the puck) that the game has ever seen, and he's one of the best east/west players in the league who doesn't rely on just speed through the neutral zone to beat players.

That's the thing to me. Datsyuk's game is one of the most efficient in the league, regardless of how it looks on tv. His hands and vision have allowed him to draw players out of position, often more than one at a time, and rip open a defense. Kovalev had a better shot, but Datsyuk is the more deceptive shooter and stickhandler.
Real nice post all around.

I'm glad you mentioned hockey iq, as so many people don't seem to understand how significant it really is.

That's the biggest difference between Datsyuk and Kovalev's efficiency. People marveled at Kovalev's physical tools, but failed to realize that he didn't have the hockey sense and iq to take full advantage of his talent. They pawn all of it off on "he just didn't care most of the time" when in reality he simply didn't know how to effectively use his skillet on a game-to-game/year-to-year basis. It's a cop out.

Datsyuk reads the game at a different level than Kovalev ever did, and that's why you see him so consistently fool defenders even though they've known for years how dangerous he is. They still can't figure him out because he's a step ahead of them most of the time.

One of my favorite moments this past yr from Datsyuk was a backhand snipe he scored against St. Louis. It wasnt the shot that made me love the play so much, but the way he made two very subtle moves to open up the lane for him to get a shot off. First he faked a pass to move Backes one way and immediately after made
Pietrangelo go the other way with another head fake. It was like watching an artist at work as he parted the seas.

When you combine that type of hockey iq with his stickhandling and edge work, it's simply one of the best players the NHL has ever seen at deking and fooling opponents.

Like I said in a previous post, in game I don't think it's truly that close whenever you consider the consistency and effectiveness. Kovalev could make someone as silly as anyone, but Datsyuk simply did it just as well and more often.

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Old
10-01-2012, 11:17 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Qward View Post
Wayne Gretzky said Kovalev is one of the best skilled players he has ever seen.

Players playing today said Datsyuk is the top skilled player.

I went with kovy.
Years ago, TSN did a poll of scouts as to who was the most talented player ever. IIRC, Lemieux and Gretzky were neck and neck at the top, followed with a string of the usual hall of fame suspects, but Kovalev was smack in the middle of the list (and higher than all contemporaries playing at the time), despite, iirc, doing absolutely nothing of note for the Rangers that year.

Datsyuk's gonna have the better highlight reel, but that's because he's a far smarter player.

Kovalev often applied his (imo, superior) stick skills in epic displays of complete pointlessness (beat player A to the outside, beat B and C to the inside, loop back, fake A out of his pants again, exit the zone, leaving 4 teammates offside). Not a lot of people were likely to save shifts like that for future upload to a youtube that didn't exist because it didn't result in anything. His game didn't make any damned sense.

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10-01-2012, 11:20 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Blues88 View Post
I don't want to discredit what Kovalev did in his time with the Rangers, and he was an elite player with the Pens as well, but its not "ignorant" to suggest that Datsyuk is the better player with the superior skill set. Look what the guy has done to virtually every top player in the league, regardless of position. He's quite a bit ahead of Kovalev in terms of hockey IQ and the ability to make plays. I don't think its a stretch to say he has some of the best hands (on both sides of the puck) that the game has ever seen, and he's one of the best east/west players in the league who doesn't rely on just speed through the neutral zone to beat players.

That's the thing to me. Datsyuk's game is one of the most efficient in the league, regardless of how it looks on tv. His hands and vision have allowed him to draw players out of position, often more than one at a time, and rip open a defense. Kovalev had a better shot, but Datsyuk is the more deceptive shooter and stickhandler.
This is pretty much a post about application of stick skills or just skills, not possession of stick skills or just skills. You're not wrong about this. Datsyuk uses the skill he has brilliantly. His decision-making is great (edit: and let's be clear, Kovalev's hockey IQ was terrible for a guy with his skillset, even if his vision was pretty good). But that's not really what's being asked.

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10-02-2012, 12:33 AM
  #66
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Kovalev`s prime better than Datsyuk`s...

Wow.

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10-02-2012, 03:29 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Forty View Post
Kovalev`s prime better than Datsyuk`s...

Wow.
At dekeing? , yes.

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10-02-2012, 08:15 AM
  #68
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Kovalev in my mind owned NHL players more with his dekes. People voted Kovakel based on his practice videos just as much as people voted Datsyuk because he deked out Trevor Thompson. And the bias part, you cant be serious if you say any player on this planet receives nearly as much bias as Pavel Datsyuk on this forum. (minus P.Forsberg)
Didn't Kovalev make a whole freakin' movie or something with him doing pointless dekes? Datsyuk did a thing with Thompson because he was asked to. These things are not comparable.

And I am serious. Like I said, Kovalev has three major fan bases blindly voting for him because he played for their team while Datsyuk has one fan base. You only believe their is a bias for Datsyuk because you personally have a vendetta against him. Datsyuk is healthily winning this poll because he is the right answer to the poll question.

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10-02-2012, 09:09 AM
  #69
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Kovalev scored a thousand points without ever moving his legs.

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10-02-2012, 09:25 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
This is pretty much a post about application of stick skills or just skills, not possession of stick skills or just skills. You're not wrong about this. Datsyuk uses the skill he has brilliantly. His decision-making is great (edit: and let's be clear, Kovalev's hockey IQ was terrible for a guy with his skillset, even if his vision was pretty good). But that's not really what's being asked.
What's being asked is "who has the better dekes", which is pretty subjective and vague. If you're driving for an answer along the lines of possessing skill, then I think its largely a wash.

Kovalev was a magician with a big body and a great shot but to me, what he did wasn't anything we hadn't seen on various occasions from Lemieux, Forsberg, or Jagr. Datsyuk has routinely done things few have attempted and virtually none have executed, much less in big games against playoff opponents like San Jose and Phoenix in the past.

There's no "right" answer as to who has more raw skill with the puck. I think its close in terms of possessing the skill. Applying those skills consistently seems to favor Datsyuk.

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10-02-2012, 12:37 PM
  #71
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Kovalev scored a thousand points without ever moving his legs.
This.

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10-02-2012, 10:46 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Datsyuk's gonna have the better highlight reel, but that's because he's a far smarter player.
Not to mention, Kovalev did his most impressive work before every nice goal ended up on youtube 5 minutes later. Unless you taped a lot of games back then, or get them from a tape trader, a lot of the stuff he did isn't that easy to get to. You can type Datsyuk's name into youtube and probably find the vast majority of goals he's scored in his prime.

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10-03-2012, 01:56 AM
  #73
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Nostalgia is clouding some people's judgement. It's close but I think it's definitely Datsyuk

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10-03-2012, 02:45 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Blues88 View Post
What's being asked is "who has the better dekes", which is pretty subjective and vague. If you're driving for an answer along the lines of possessing skill, then I think its largely a wash.

Kovalev was a magician with a big body and a great shot but to me, what he did wasn't anything we hadn't seen on various occasions from Lemieux, Forsberg, or Jagr. Datsyuk has routinely done things few have attempted and virtually none have executed, much less in big games against playoff opponents like San Jose and Phoenix in the past.

There's no "right" answer as to who has more raw skill with the puck. I think its close in terms of possessing the skill. Applying those skills consistently seems to favor Datsyuk.
My problem isn't with your opinion, it's with the way you supported it. Datsyuk is better at deke-ing because his higher hockey IQ makes his game more effective in general isn't a well-reasoned answer to "who has the best dekes."

And you can't say something like "what Kovalev did wasn't anything we hadn't seen on various occasions from (three guys who had dissimilar games)" while pretending Datsyuk is unique. If anything, Datsyuk's "dangling" is far more similar to Gilbert Perrault than Kovalev's game was to, well, anyone's (which isn't necessarily a feather in Kovalev's cap, mind you. As I noted before, Kovalev frequently applied his skills in brainless, pointless fashion: guy on top of the tender...let's cut into coverage then try a soft, back-hand, no-look, 60 foot diagonal pass through heavy traffic to a point man who isn't in shooting position...even if it connected, that didn't make it the right play).

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10-03-2012, 04:36 AM
  #75
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Oh man, nostalgia ("Your vote is invalid because I believe you haven't seen Kovalev play!") vs. ignorance ("Haven't seen Kovalev play, but voted Datsyuk anyway, because Datsyuk > all!")

This discussion gets my personal popcorn award

Seriously, though. You can't simply answer this question, because first of all, there is a question which must be answered first:

What is a "good Deke"?

Is a "good Deke" a successful Deke? A beautiful Deke? An unique Deke? An efficient Deke?

Depending on your definition of a "good Deke", the answer will be different. If you think, a good Deke must be successful and efficient, then there is no doubt, that Datsyuk has to be the answer (seems to be some kind of a consense in this thread). If you think, that a "good Deke" means, that the player embarrasses 3 players, no matter if the action makes sense or not, then you would vote for Kovalev (Probably. I can't judge it because I, I admit it, could never watch him play.).

However, didn't vote on the poll.

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