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Yzerman/Fedorov vs. Sakic/Forsberg vs. Crosby/Malkin

View Poll Results: best duo ?
Yzerman/Fedorov 79 26.07%
Sakic/Forsberg 118 38.94%
Crosby/Malkin 106 34.98%
Voters: 303. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-24-2012, 02:54 PM
  #26
RandV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
Federov and Forsberg, ok maybe?
Yzerman and Sakic, no chance. Sid isn't better than them yet.

While Yzerman/Sakic/Forsberg/Federov were losing Hart/Art Ross/Conn Smythes to the likes of Gretzky/Lemieux/Jagr/Roy, Crosby and Geno were losing them to the likes of Ovechkin/Sedin(s)/Perry/Thornton/old Jagr.

So don't tell me that because there hardware is ever so slightly more impressive that they're better.
Gretzky and Lemieux can't always be an excuse. Even though the elder 4 had two of the best all-time to compete against for trophies, while it shrinks their trophy case it doesn't mean they'd be filled full if Lemieux or Gretzky never played. There were other great players at the time who in any single season was just as good as those 4, such as Roenick, Lafontaine, Oates, Gilmour, Francis, Mogilny, Bure, Kariya, Selanne, etc etc, who would have left the trophy race wide open leading to many 'Sedin' or 'Perry' like winners.

Like I said before, one of the main sticking points of these guys greatness is their longevity. That and playing on successful multi-Cup winning teams. Point is at the end of their careers knowing what they accomplished you will always go with Sakic/Yzerman. If you go back to say 1990-95 and remove Gretzky/Lemieux/Jagr, Sakic and Yzerman wouldn't be as clear cut #1/2 picks as Crosby and Malkin are today.

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Old
09-24-2012, 03:00 PM
  #27
DanZ
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Absolute peak Fedorov is the best player on that list. Hart + Selke + 120 points is unheard of. My poll answer depends on the context of the OP though. Are we talking peak? careers? If we are talking peak, I take Yzerman/Fedorov. If we are talking careers, can we really know the answer until Crosby and Malkin are done?

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09-24-2012, 03:01 PM
  #28
MadLuke
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For people talking about Lemieux, Gretzky, remove Lemieux, Gretzky, jagr.

now compare how many harts, art ross, etc.... Those duo have hardware versus Crosby, Malkin.

It is legit I think.

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09-24-2012, 03:05 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Absolute peak Fedorov is the best player on that list. Hart + Selke + 120 points is unheard of.
Gretzky and Lemieux never did thing close to that in their peak and were much more dominant.

Doing something rare cannot be use as being better by itself IMO.

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09-24-2012, 03:07 PM
  #30
dr robbie
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very good poll.

i personally would have to go with sakic / forsberg just because of the sheer dominance they had with the Avs in the 90s. crosby / malkin are a close second and could very easily top them soon.

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09-24-2012, 04:23 PM
  #31
DanZ
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Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
Gretzky and Lemieux never did thing close to that in their peak and were much more dominant.

Doing something rare cannot be use as being better by itself IMO.
Ok but the players in this poll are not Gretzky and Lemieux. It's not just that it is rare (not only rare, but never been done before or since) but he won the Hart, Selke, and scored 120 points. That right there is my argument for peak Fedorov>>everybody else in this poll

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09-24-2012, 04:26 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Ok but the players in this poll are not Gretzky and Lemieux. It's not just that it is rare (not only rare, but never been done before or since) but he won the Hart, Selke, and scored 120 points. That right there is my argument for peak Fedorov>>everybody else in this poll
Only because Bobby Orr could not win the Selke thought

I do not think that peak federov made is team win more than peak Malkin in beast mode scoring 36points in a playoff run.

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Old
09-24-2012, 06:28 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
For people talking about Lemieux, Gretzky, remove Lemieux, Gretzky, jagr.

now compare how many harts, art ross, etc.... Those duo have hardware versus Crosby, Malkin.

It is legit I think.
This is a weak argument. We have to pick and choose and take 3 players out of the league to make Sakic and Yzerman look slightly better? Without Gretzky and Lemieux, here are where Yzerman and Sakic finished in Hart voting:

Yzerman: 1, 2, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8, 13.
Sakic: 1, 6, 6, 7, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15.

Even if we take out Jagr, neither of them win another Hart trophy. Sakic doesn't benefit at all from eliminating Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr from the picture and Yzerman picks up 1 Hart trophy. Eliminating the same three players, Yzerman wins 1 Art Ross and Sakic wins 2. If you eliminated a peak Ovechkin from the league, which is a fair trade off for eliminating all three of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr, Malkin has 2 more Hart trophies, and an Art Ross trophy. Malkin is undeniably better than Sakic and Yzerman. Anyways, It doesn't make sense to suggest that Yzerman and Sakic were losing Hart trophies to Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr, when in reality they were receiving less votes than players like Gilmour, Turgeon, Oates, Lafontaine, Chelios, Selanne, Lindros, Fleury, Coffey, Bondra, Kariya, Mogilny, Leclair, Modano, etc., etc. in any given year.

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09-24-2012, 06:31 PM
  #34
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Thanks falcon, that was I thought.

Even with no Gretzky and Lemieux and Jagr, the other duo during all their career have not more art ross than Malkin crosby. If I understand correctly.

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09-24-2012, 06:33 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Ok but the players in this poll are not Gretzky and Lemieux. It's not just that it is rare (not only rare, but never been done before or since) but he won the Hart, Selke, and scored 120 points. That right there is my argument for peak Fedorov>>everybody else in this poll
He scored 120 points because of how high scoring was in the early 90s. How many players scored 100 points that season? Datsyuk putting up 97 points and Selkes in back to back years is almost equally impressive.

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09-24-2012, 08:22 PM
  #36
bambamcam4ever
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If you adjust Fedorov's Hart-winning season to when Datsyuk first scored 97 and won the Selke, it comes out to 101 points, his most impressive adjusted season. Fedorov and Datsyuk are comparable players, not Fedorov and Crosby or Malkin.

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09-24-2012, 09:28 PM
  #37
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Pure talent wise it's Crosby and Malkin. Career And health taken into consideration? Sakic Foresberg

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09-24-2012, 09:30 PM
  #38
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He said which is the best duo, not which pair had the best career. In actually hockey ability, Crosby and Malkin are the easy winners here.

Mix career into it, it gets interesting, because you have to take injury problems/longetivity into it. But as for the question that was actually asked, I'll take Sid and Geno easy.

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09-24-2012, 09:33 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Falcons93 View Post
He scored 120 points because of how high scoring was in the early 90s. How many players scored 100 points that season? Datsyuk putting up 97 points and Selkes in back to back years is almost equally impressive.
He still won the Hart over Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Bourque, Hasek, Sakic, Yzerman etc., etc... Hart + Selke has only been done once ever for a reason: It's really, really hard to do

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09-24-2012, 09:49 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
He still won the Hart over Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Bourque, Hasek, Sakic, Yzerman etc., etc... Hart + Selke has only been done once ever for a reason: It's really, really hard to do
Lemieux was not there in 94. But yeah Federov is there for best season peak (maybe the best).

But Malkin conn smyth year is not far, and seam to go on a longuer prime.

Federov did not had the career start better than Crosby/Malkin (good step under) good career for Federov until 34 thought. But would like to see Crosby/Malkin a good step over ppg and federov for a while.

I think your underestimating Malkin and Crosby a bit. The 4 others players have what 2 art ross in all their career, and did not loose many to Lemieux/Gretzky (one by Yzerman I think), Crosby/Malkin have already 3 at 25 and 26 year old.

For me other player in this group where in the mix for top player, Forsberg was the best a while, Sakic in 00-2001 maybe, Crosby and Malkin are constant threat for number one and where always top 3 since their season in the league.

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09-24-2012, 11:31 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
If you adjust Fedorov's Hart-winning season to when Datsyuk first scored 97 and won the Selke, it comes out to 101 points, his most impressive adjusted season. Fedorov and Datsyuk are comparable players, not Fedorov and Crosby or Malkin.
Fedorov won the Hart in 1993-94 in a landslide for a reason. Most impressive two-way performance I've ever seen from a forward. He didn't have another regular season close to as good, but he was consistently much better in the playoffs than Datsyuk.

The main reason I didn't pick Yzerman and Fedorov is because their primes barely overlapped.

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09-25-2012, 12:19 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falcons93 View Post
This is a weak argument. We have to pick and choose and take 3 players out of the league to make Sakic and Yzerman look slightly better? Without Gretzky and Lemieux, here are where Yzerman and Sakic finished in Hart voting:

Yzerman: 1, 2, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8, 13.
Sakic: 1, 6, 6, 7, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15.

Even if we take out Jagr, neither of them win another Hart trophy. Sakic doesn't benefit at all from eliminating Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr from the picture and Yzerman picks up 1 Hart trophy. Eliminating the same three players, Yzerman wins 1 Art Ross and Sakic wins 2. If you eliminated a peak Ovechkin from the league, which is a fair trade off for eliminating all three of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr, Malkin has 2 more Hart trophies, and an Art Ross trophy. Malkin is undeniably better than Sakic and Yzerman. Anyways, It doesn't make sense to suggest that Yzerman and Sakic were losing Hart trophies to Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr, when in reality they were receiving less votes than players like Gilmour, Turgeon, Oates, Lafontaine, Chelios, Selanne, Lindros, Fleury, Coffey, Bondra, Kariya, Mogilny, Leclair, Modano, etc., etc. in any given year.
The bolded is the most laughable thing I've read in weeks. Sakic... maaaaybe, Yzerman, not a chance.

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Old
09-25-2012, 12:55 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by SenacusMaximus View Post
The bolded is the most laughable thing I've read in weeks. Sakic... maaaaybe, Yzerman, not a chance.
This is funny in itself because most people recognize that Joe was better than Yzerman. Anyways, Malkin will finally get the respect he deserves when he retires/adds to his trophy collection before his career is over.

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09-25-2012, 12:59 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by SenacusMaximus View Post
The bolded is the most laughable thing I've read in weeks. Sakic... maaaaybe, Yzerman, not a chance.
He is physiquely better at playing hockey tought, long way to have their kind of career, but Malkin have a better start than those 2, don't you think ?

P.S. You really have Yzerman way over Sakic ? Sakic have more point in less game in playoff than him, it is really close between the two imo.

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09-25-2012, 01:08 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Gobo View Post
Federov and Forsberg, ok maybe?
Yzerman and Sakic, no chance. Sid isn't better than them yet.
How much better you think Crosby can get ?, Yzerman monster seasons was at 25, Crosby was winning art ross/hart at 20 and was probably better during is half season. Maybe he have room to improve, but this kind of young superstars peak young enough usually.

And Crosby peak is as good or better than Sakic already imo.

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09-25-2012, 11:10 AM
  #46
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If they continue like this it will be Crosby and Malkin. As of now it's Sakic and Forsberg

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09-25-2012, 11:48 AM
  #47
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For me it's
Sakic/Foppa
Stevie Y/Federov
Malkin/Crosby

Malkin and Crosby could still pass them, but I don't expect them to.

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09-25-2012, 11:57 AM
  #48
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I wonder where would Selanne / kariya place in this poll? as duo they were something magnificent.

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Old
09-25-2012, 01:06 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Malkin and Crosby could still pass them, but I don't expect them to.
You think that they could get better after 25 or that they need too ?

Or if you talking better career and not better for sure, but this is a bit unfair.

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09-25-2012, 01:10 PM
  #50
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add bossy trottier , gretzky messier and lemieux jagr

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