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Yzerman/Fedorov vs. Sakic/Forsberg vs. Crosby/Malkin

View Poll Results: best duo ?
Yzerman/Fedorov 81 26.47%
Sakic/Forsberg 119 38.89%
Crosby/Malkin 106 34.64%
Voters: 306. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-25-2012, 12:38 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
You think that they could get better after 25 or that they need too ?

Or if you talking better career and not better for sure, but this is a bit unfair.
That applies to both career accomplishment and peak play. Right now I don't think Crosby and Malkin will surpass the other two duos in either category, although since they're both still young enough to change that I didn't want to deny the possibility, even if I don't consider it very likely.

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09-25-2012, 02:15 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Absolute peak Fedorov is the best player on that list. Hart + Selke + 120 points is unheard of. My poll answer depends on the context of the OP though. Are we talking peak? careers? If we are talking peak, I take Yzerman/Fedorov. If we are talking careers, can we really know the answer until Crosby and Malkin are done?
Absolute peak it's Yzerman. He scored 155 - a number nobody but Gretzky and Lemieux have reached - while also double-shifting as the third-line checking center and receiving a first-place Selke vote in the process; Gilmour's 127 in 1993 was the next highest scoring season by a player who received a 1st place Selke vote. Yzerman was the clear #3 in the league, and the only one of the three who played defense.

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Originally Posted by Falcons93 View Post
This is a weak argument. We have to pick and choose and take 3 players out of the league to make Sakic and Yzerman look slightly better? Without Gretzky and Lemieux, here are where Yzerman and Sakic finished in Hart voting:

Yzerman: 1, 2, 5, 6, 6, 7, 8, 13.
Sakic: 1, 6, 6, 7, 7, 8, 13, 14, 15.

Even if we take out Jagr, neither of them win another Hart trophy. Sakic doesn't benefit at all from eliminating Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr from the picture and Yzerman picks up 1 Hart trophy. Eliminating the same three players, Yzerman wins 1 Art Ross and Sakic wins 2. If you eliminated a peak Ovechkin from the league, which is a fair trade off for eliminating all three of Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr, Malkin has 2 more Hart trophies, and an Art Ross trophy. Malkin is undeniably better than Sakic and Yzerman. Anyways, It doesn't make sense to suggest that Yzerman and Sakic were losing Hart trophies to Gretzky, Lemieux, and Jagr, when in reality they were receiving less votes than players like Gilmour, Turgeon, Oates, Lafontaine, Chelios, Selanne, Lindros, Fleury, Coffey, Bondra, Kariya, Mogilny, Leclair, Modano, etc., etc. in any given year.
If you take away Gretzky and Lemieux:

1) Yzerman gets more recognition earlier.
2) Messier's reputation and numbers aren't so inflated during the early/mid 80s.

This would have led to, at minimum, people recognizing Yzerman's defensive play as well as his offense. Which probably nets him another Hart or two in addition to the 1989 Hart he should have won.

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Originally Posted by Falcons93 View Post
This is funny in itself because most people recognize that Joe was better than Yzerman.
From the beginning of Sakic's career until the end of Yzerman's, Sakic scored 144 more points in 78 more games. Sakic, however, was not a significant defensive presence until the second half of that span. But as huge as that difference seems, Sakic averaged 99 points per 82 games during that span, while Yzerman averaged 95. Four points. Yzerman was a multiple Selke finalist who took one home and was defensively very good to great depending on the year in question. Sakic's defensive game didn't develop until the mid-late 90s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
He is physiquely better at playing hockey tought, long way to have their kind of career, but Malkin have a better start than those 2, don't you think ?

P.S. You really have Yzerman way over Sakic ? Sakic have more point in less game in playoff than him, it is really close between the two imo.
Yzerman also played the majority of his playoff games after he was past his prime, while Sakic did so during his prime on a highly power offensive team.

Another thing people may not be taking into consideration; Yzerman is the only player listed who did not play his prime on a contender.

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09-25-2012, 02:54 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Absolute peak it's Yzerman. He scored 155 - a number nobody but Gretzky and Lemieux have reached - while also double-shifting as the third-line checking center and receiving a first-place Selke vote in the process; Gilmour's 127 in 1993 was the next highest scoring season by a player who received a 1st place Selke vote. Yzerman was the clear #3 in the league, and the only one of the three who played defense.
1 out of 63 voters for the Selke gave Yzerman his first place vote. And 2 of 63 voters gave Yzerman any votes at all. Not exactly compelling evidence. Even Gretzky picked up a single vote for the Selke on a couple of occasions.

Quote:
If you take away Gretzky and Lemieux:

1) Yzerman gets more recognition earlier.
2) Messier's reputation and numbers aren't so inflated during the early/mid 80s.
If anything, playing a more defensive role on the Oilers hurt Messier's regular season stats. In the early-mid 80s, he was regularly out there for defensive zone draws, killing penalties, and playing head to head against the best opposition. Messier didn't explode offensively until 1986-87, Gretzky's second to last season in Edmonton, when he started getting big minutes on the PP.

Why do some Yzerman fans feel the need to make such inaccurate statements about Mark Messier?



Quote:
From the beginning of Sakic's career until the end of Yzerman's, Sakic scored 144 more points in 78 more games. Sakic, however, was not a significant defensive presence until the second half of that span. But as huge as that difference seems, Sakic averaged 99 points per 82 games during that span, while Yzerman averaged 95. Four points. Yzerman was a multiple Selke finalist who took one home and was defensively very good to great depending on the year in question. Sakic's defensive game didn't develop until the mid-late 90s.
Agree that Sakic's defensive game didn't develop until the mid-late 90s.

But you can't compare their stats like this. Yzerman's offensive peak was when the league was much higher scoring, and unadjusted points-per-game favors the player who peaked when scoring was higher.

Quote:
Yzerman also played the majority of his playoff games after he was past his prime, while Sakic did so during his prime on a highly power offensive team.

Another thing people may not be taking into consideration; Yzerman is the only player listed who did not play his prime on a contender.
These are valid points. But the second one is a main reason I picked Sakic/Forsberg. Prime Yzerman and prime Fedorov really weren't a duo, as Yzerman had declined slightly by the time the Wings brought in help (including Fedorov).

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09-25-2012, 02:57 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Absolute peak it's Yzerman. He scored 155 - a number nobody but Gretzky and Lemieux have reached - while also double-shifting as the third-line checking center and receiving a first-place Selke vote in the process; Gilmour's 127 in 1993 was the next highest scoring season by a player who received a 1st place Selke vote. Yzerman was the clear #3 in the league, and the only one of the three who played defense.
He also did it when the league averaged 7.5 goals per game. That is only 113 points adjusted to last season's scoring. Both Malkin and Crosby were more impressive last year.

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09-25-2012, 03:00 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
He also did it when the league averaged 7.5 goals per game. That is only 113 points adjusted to last season's scoring. Both Malkin and Crosby were more impressive last year.
Meh, standard "adjusted scoring" fails to take into account the fact that the majority (not all) of the scoring explosion in the 1980s came from lower line players. You need to "adjust" first liners from the 80s down, but any formula based on leaguewide scoring adjusts them down too far.

Not to mention, Crosby didn't score anywhere close to 113 adjusted points last year.

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09-25-2012, 03:09 PM
  #56
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A poll like this really goes to show how young most of the posters are on this site.

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09-25-2012, 03:39 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
A poll like this really goes to show how young most of the posters are on this site.
I really don't understand what you mean by this. I saw all of Fedorov;s and Forsberg's NHL careers, and basically all of Sakic's prime. Missed out on Yzerman's 1988-89 though. I voted Forsberg and Sakic, because I value "time actually spent on the ice together" as part of what it means to be a duo.

But if you look strictly at peak, there is definitely an argumet for Malkin and Crosby. And if you choose to look at "accomplishments at the same age" (which I don't understand but seems popular on hfboards), then it's definitely Malkin and Crosby.

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09-25-2012, 04:57 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Meh, standard "adjusted scoring" fails to take into account the fact that the majority (not all) of the scoring explosion in the 1980s came from lower line players. You need to "adjust" first liners from the 80s down, but any formula based on leaguewide scoring adjusts them down too far.

Not to mention, Crosby didn't score anywhere close to 113 adjusted points last year.
Maybe there wasn't as much high-end offensive talent in the 80s aside from Gretzky and Lemieux.

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09-25-2012, 05:00 PM
  #59
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Yzerman + Fedorov for the added defensive presence.

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09-25-2012, 05:09 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by The Red Line View Post
A poll like this really goes to show how young most of the posters are on this site.
Or old with nostalgia, Sakic was not as good as Crosby.

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09-25-2012, 05:48 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
Maybe there wasn't as much high-end offensive talent in the 80s aside from Gretzky and Lemieux.
No way. Lafontaine and Yzerman weren't just guys who got garbage points against bad goalies. These guys were total packages in terms of skillset and hockey IQ. And that's without even getting into Messier/Turgeon/Stastny. There were some guys who were sometimes among point leaders who wouldn't be there today (Cullen, Bellows, Nicholls all come to mind), but the very top guys of the era were the real thing.

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09-25-2012, 05:51 PM
  #62
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Best duo as in peak year?

Crosby-Malkin in 09.

1st and 3rd in point totals in regular season. 1st and 2nd in playoff points. Easily one of the most dynamic seasons for a duo in hockey history.

Careers?

Well I never considered Yzerman or Federov as the best players in the world. I didn't consider Forsberg or Sakic either (Jagr, Lemieux). Malkin and Crosby have a case though. Malkin two Art Ross, one Conn Smythe, Crosby highest PPG between the 4.

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09-25-2012, 06:32 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by billybudd View Post
Lafontaine and Yzerman weren't just guys who got garbage points against bad goalies. These guys were total packages in terms of skillset and hockey IQ.
They would be a threat for the Ross in any era for sure (when Gretzky or lemieux are not playing a full season).

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09-26-2012, 08:50 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Absolute peak it's Yzerman. He scored 155 - a number nobody but Gretzky and Lemieux have reached - while also double-shifting as the third-line checking center and receiving a first-place Selke vote in the process; Gilmour's 127 in 1993 was the next highest scoring season by a player who received a 1st place Selke vote. Yzerman was the clear #3 in the league, and the only one of the three who played defense.
I still take 120 points + Hart + Selke over Yzerman's 155 points in the high scoring '80s. A single first place vote means nothing. And the fact that Fedorov won the Hart makes me think he was the clear #1 in the league that year

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09-26-2012, 11:38 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
Maybe there wasn't as much high-end offensive talent in the 80s aside from Gretzky and Lemieux.
Or maybe when a mathematical formula comes up with absurd results, it's time to recognize the formula's weakness.

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Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
Or old with nostalgia, Sakic was not as good as Crosby.
What year are we talking about here? I'd probably take Sakic's 2000-01 over any Crosby season, though it's close. Crosby does have the better second best season, but Sakic's 1995-96 isn't all that far behind.

Playoffs? Sakic's 1996 is better than anything Crosby every did IMO, and his 2001 isn't that far behind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Best duo as in peak year?

Crosby-Malkin in 09.

1st and 3rd in point totals in regular season. 1st and 2nd in playoff points. Easily one of the most dynamic seasons for a duo in hockey history.

Careers?

Well I never considered Yzerman or Federov as the best players in the world. I didn't consider Forsberg or Sakic either (Jagr, Lemieux). Malkin and Crosby have a case though. Malkin two Art Ross, one Conn Smythe, Crosby highest PPG between the 4.
True. Sakic and Forsberg tended to alternate years of greatness.

1995-96 might have been their most dominant year together, when they finished just behind the ridiculous Pittsburgh offense:

1. Mario Lemieux PIT 161
2. Jaromir Jagr PIT 149
3. Joe Sakic COL 120
4. Ron Francis PIT 119
5. Peter Forsberg COL 116
6. Eric Lindros 115
7. Paul Kariya 108
7. Teemu Selanne 108

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09-26-2012, 12:17 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
He also did it when the league averaged 7.5 goals per game. That is only 113 points adjusted to last season's scoring. Both Malkin and Crosby were more impressive last year.
Yup... Crosby's 22 game season last year was more impressive than Yzerman's 1989 155 point total that has only been surpassed by Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux ever in the history of the NHL.

(PS Yzerman won the NHLPA MVP that year too)

Yup.

BTW, 113 points adjusted scoring would put Yzerman at #1 in scoring last season....

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09-26-2012, 12:25 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Or maybe when a mathematical formula comes up with absurd results, it's time to recognize the formula's weakness.

It warms my heart to hear you saying this but it's not that the formula is flawed, it is what it is.
The flaws are that most people don't understand what the formula entails in the first place and especially the way the data is used by far too many people.
I have said this like a million times now, Adjusted Stats is part of the equation. It's not the final answer it's used far too often for.

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09-26-2012, 12:34 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by ashenhigh View Post
Yup... Crosby's 22 game season last year was more impressive than Yzerman's 1989 155 point total that has only been surpassed by Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux ever in the history of the NHL.

(PS Yzerman won the NHLPA MVP that year too)

Yup.

BTW, 113 points adjusted scoring would put Yzerman at #1 in scoring last season....
If you are to adjust 1 player, over 82 games, you should adjust all players. Which means Malkins 109/75games = 119.2/82.
Slightly less than Malkin my friend.
And just for the luls, Crosby over 82 last year = 137.9pts. (just for fun)

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09-26-2012, 12:42 PM
  #69
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Yzerman/Fedorov...Their defence makes up for a slightly lower scoring pace. Crosby/Malkin can make up some ground if they can stay healthy. Fedorov is really being underrated here though.


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09-26-2012, 02:42 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Phenom97 View Post
If you are to adjust 1 player, over 82 games, you should adjust all players. Which means Malkins 109/75games = 119.2/82.
Slightly less than Malkin my friend.
And just for the luls, Crosby over 82 last year = 137.9pts. (just for fun)
First off, Yzerman's adjusted points for '89 over 82 games is 131 points http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...yzermst01.html
I mean as long as we're stupidly using Adjusted Stats on their face, might as well get it correct at least eh.

Second, Gretzky's pace on his 51 game scoring streak was 196 points over 82 games and that is adjusted (it was 246 points over 82 games raw)

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09-26-2012, 03:16 PM
  #71
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Gretzky/Messier > Sakic/Forsberg > Crosby/Malkin > Yzerman/Federov

In my internal criteria, not only do both centers have to be great but the duo together should have both a special amount of on-ice team chemistry and off-ice as well, that translates into playoff wins. Thus the Red Wings pair is last. The Wings won Cups but the two centers didn't stay together that long. Malkin takes less to stay with Sid and Sid has his self-cap. Federov chased the bucks.

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09-26-2012, 03:46 PM
  #72
bambamcam4ever
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
First off, Yzerman's adjusted points for '89 over 82 games is 131 points http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...yzermst01.html
I mean as long as we're stupidly using Adjusted Stats on their face, might as well get it correct at least eh.

Second, Gretzky's pace on his 51 game scoring streak was 196 points over 82 games and that is adjusted (it was 246 points over 82 games raw)
Yzerman's points were being adjusted to last season, not 6 goals per game like hockeyreference uses.

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09-26-2012, 04:17 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
Yzerman's points were being adjusted to last season, not 6 goals per game like hockeyreference uses.
It doesn't matter what number they use to Adjust the stats as long as they use the same number for everyone.
Malkin's Adjusted Stats for last season is 122 points over 82 games so either way, whoevers "Math" is saying that Malkin's adjusted total from last season is higher than Stevie's Adjusted total in '89 is obviously in error.

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09-26-2012, 04:53 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
It doesn't matter what number they use to Adjust the stats as long as they use the same number for everyone.
Malkin's Adjusted Stats for last season is 122 points over 82 games so either way, whoevers "Math" is saying that Malkin's adjusted total from last season is higher than Stevie's Adjusted total in '89 is obviously in error.
No, Malkin's adjusted stats say he has 122 points over 75 games. Over 82, he has 134.

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09-26-2012, 05:55 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
No, Malkin's adjusted stats say he has 122 points over 75 games. Over 82, he has 134.
And you would have to be some kind of moron to actually believe that Malkin's season last year was any where close to the same offensive performance Stevie put on in '89.

Stevie accounted for about 50% of Detroit's total goal production in '89.
Malkin only accounted for 38.7% of the Pens total goal production last year.


IF that is actually your belief, the ONLY possible conclusion that could be made is that you didn't actually witness Stevie's '89 season. That's a fact!


That's why Adjusted Stats are a guide, NOT a final answer.


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