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Old
09-25-2012, 09:53 PM
  #76
uiCk
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having 18 teams lose money, is probably directly correlated to mainly 2 reasons.
One being the recession that hit the USA harder then anywhere, where teams like Detroit were having financial difficulties.
The other being that the owners/bettman banked on "expansion" of the hockey market in markets where hockey is non existent (ex Fla, TB, PHX, Nsh etc)

IMO the league failed at speculating profitable markets and now are paying for it. And so are the fans, and so are the players it seems.

*Relocate some teams to more profitable markets, like Quebec and another team in the GTA, disolve some others, and i'm sure the books would be clean and more reflective of the current growth the NHL has seen in past 8 years.

As for the CBA, make it go towards a more 'fair' redistribution, but gradually, and more geared towards the 80% of players who don't make killer contracts ala Sutter and Parise. i don't know the details, but if Crosby receives the same amount of money from the revenue sharing then his buddy that has been going from team to team hustling every year for that 1 year min salary contract, relocating from city to city, that should be changed too.

i'm sure a deal can get done, and will get done, once both parties stop headbutting and trying to find a solution. Although, the financial state of PHX should not have any impact on this deal, since that's IMO a purely speculative risk gone wrong.

I also lol'd at the Forbes article part about NJ losing money. no ****, you can't fill your building, and then go out and splash 100mill front loaded contract to 1 player. Duh, that was a failed risk attempt at building hype in NJ to get some fans back, no one to blame but NJ on that one.


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09-25-2012, 10:27 PM
  #77
Nac Mac Feegle
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The main problem, (aside from a 57/43 split that should be closer to 50/50,) is the narrow gap between cap floor and ceiling. When you have to pay a third liner or plugger more than he's worth on the open market just to make the cap floor, something is terribly wrong. The league can still have competitive balance while increasing the gap between the floor and ceiling.

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09-25-2012, 10:33 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
The main problem, (aside from a 57/43 split that should be closer to 50/50,) is the narrow gap between cap floor and ceiling. When you have to pay a third liner or plugger more than he's worth on the open market just to make the cap floor, something is terribly wrong. The league can still have competitive balance while increasing the gap between the floor and ceiling.
According to Tuna, you only play plugger 3rd liners more than they're worth because all owners make a killing... Not because of the salary floor

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09-26-2012, 07:41 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Nac Mac Feegle View Post
The main problem, (aside from a 57/43 split that should be closer to 50/50,) is the narrow gap between cap floor and ceiling. When you have to pay a third liner or plugger more than he's worth on the open market just to make the cap floor, something is terribly wrong. The league can still have competitive balance while increasing the gap between the floor and ceiling.
This is called poor Cap Management not a salary cap problem - find me 3rd and 4th line players that got an extra $2 million a season to play hockey so their team can make the Cap floor - Ottawa is the perfect example of a well managed Cap team

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09-26-2012, 07:48 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Legend Killer View Post
According to Tuna, you only play plugger 3rd liners more than they're worth because all owners make a killing... Not because of the salary floor
There are tons of examples of 3rd line players who are not pluggers and are great at selling tickets and being huge parts of the community that identifies fans with their hockey teams - Chris Neil, Darcy Tucker, Kris Draper - these guys are heart and soul guys fans identify with and they have value beyond their 15 points - if Chris Neil makes $2 million because he has built himself an identity with the crest and the fans, he deserves it, why should he take a paycut so Eugene Melnyk can get a bigger TV, why should Draper not make millions?? See were Develano is without the Draper's, Yzerman's and the other cows he pays, try giving that money to Yashin and see how long the fans keep their interest in the team over a 10 year period.

The players are the game, we identify with them and they are the reason we watch - they have value and the value is determined by the market the OWNERS created - it is not artificial or fabricated by player agents - it has been created SOLELY by the owners and they should be responsible to the contracts they signed in full - end of story.

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09-26-2012, 08:42 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
This is called poor Cap Management not a salary cap problem - find me 3rd and 4th line players that got an extra $2 million a season to play hockey so their team can make the Cap floor - Ottawa is the perfect example of a well managed Cap team
How about virtually every contract signed this summer? Even the money we gave Karlsson would've been crazy 2 years ago (even with his performance). Look at the Prust signing in Montreal if you need an example. How the bloody hell is that goonball going to solve the problems in Habland?

Don't you see what happens? A 3rd or 2nd liner gets more than her deserves, the next comperable free agent gets a lil more, then a lil more, then more....before you know it, it's market value to pay a 4th liner 2 mil a year. That's the problem.

Now, I'm not knocking the players. They have short careers, are the best at what they do in the world, and they aren't exactly holding a gun to the owners' heads, after all.

Simple fact is, both the owners and players are going to have to give in a little bit if they want a healthy league. With nearly a dozen US teams selling tickets under $20 and still only having 10k paid seats (or less), it just isn't physically possible to pay the bills now even at the cap floor. Expanded revenue sharing plus a 50/50 revenue split along with a reasonable spread in the cap floor and ceiling is the only way to go.

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Old
09-26-2012, 08:48 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
There are tons of examples of 3rd line players who are not pluggers and are great at selling tickets and being huge parts of the community that identifies fans with their hockey teams - Chris Neil, Darcy Tucker, Kris Draper - these guys are heart and soul guys fans identify with and they have value beyond their 15 points - if Chris Neil makes $2 million because he has built himself an identity with the crest and the fans, he deserves it, why should he take a paycut so Eugene Melnyk can get a bigger TV, why should Draper not make millions?? See were Develano is without the Draper's, Yzerman's and the other cows he pays, try giving that money to Yashin and see how long the fans keep their interest in the team over a 10 year period.

The players are the game, we identify with them and they are the reason we watch - they have value and the value is determined by the market the OWNERS created - it is not artificial or fabricated by player agents - it has been created SOLELY by the owners and they should be responsible to the contracts they signed in full - end of story.
Might I point out again that Develano is also one of the "cows" he was referring to. Develano is a member of the front office who is also paid by the owners. The only non-"cows" are the likes of Eugene Melnyk and the other 28 owners.

Just a quick comment on NHL players short careers as well. Now I'm going to make an assumption that 100k is a pretty good salary for your average person that went through four years of university and perhaps an additional stint of two-four years in some specialty school. Compare that to the lowest salary of 525K for an NHL player.

In ONE year they make about 5x what a normal highly educated person would. So after about four years they've essentially made 20 years worth of salary. If the average career of an NHLer is about 7 years that is the same as working for 35 years in a normal job.

Now take a player like Jason Spezza who essentially makes as much as a person would in 70 years in just one year of hockey. I'm sorry but I don't feel bad for any of these guys when it comes to their short careers and squabbles over money.


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Old
09-26-2012, 09:36 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
Might I point out again that Develano is also one of the "cows" he was referring to. Develano is a member of the front office who is also paid by the owners. The only non-"cows" are the likes of Eugene Melnyk and the other 28 owners.

Just a quick comment on NHL players short careers as well. Now I'm going to make an assumption that 100k is a pretty good salary for your average person that went through four years of university and perhaps an additional stint of two-four years in some specialty school. Compare that to the lowest salary of 525K for an NHL player.

In ONE year they make about 5x what a normal highly educated person would. So after about four years they've essentially made 20 years worth of salary. If the average career of an NHLer is about 7 years that is the same as working for 35 years in a normal job.

Now take a player like Jason Spezza who essentially makes as much as a person would in 70 years in just one year of hockey. I'm sorry but I don't feel bad for any of these guys when it comes to their short careers and squabbles over money.
One just needs to remember that "Some pigs are more equal than others".

Hard to pick any side as the good guy when they are all squabbling over scraps from a very very large "pie".

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09-26-2012, 09:38 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by WantEggRoll View Post
Might I point out again that Develano is also one of the "cows" he was referring to. Develano is a member of the front office who is also paid by the owners. The only non-"cows" are the likes of Eugene Melnyk and the other 28 owners.

Just a quick comment on NHL players short careers as well. Now I'm going to make an assumption that 100k is a pretty good salary for your average person that went through four years of university and perhaps an additional stint of two-four years in some specialty school. Compare that to the lowest salary of 525K for an NHL player.

In ONE year they make about 5x what a normal highly educated person would. So after about four years they've essentially made 20 years worth of salary. If the average career of an NHLer is about 7 years that is the same as working for 35 years in a normal job.

Now take a player like Jason Spezza who essentially makes as much as a person would in 70 years in just one year of hockey. I'm sorry but I don't feel bad for any of these guys when it comes to their short careers and squabbles over money.
That's because it is easy to get a University education - any moron can get a degree if they have the $$$ - try scoring on Henrik Lunqvist, there are only a few people in the world who can do that, that rarity of those skill creates the value.

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09-26-2012, 09:46 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
That's because it is easy to get a University education - any moron can get a degree if they have the $$$ - try scoring on Henrik Lunqvist, there are only a few people in the world who can do that, that rarity of those skill creates the value.
Yes any moron can just waltz right into law school/medical school/high end paying professional positions. If you bothered to think about my post you'd realize I'm not talking about acquiring a simple Arts BA. I can't decide if you are simply trolling or if you just choose to ignore certain details.


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09-26-2012, 10:45 AM
  #86
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One just needs to remember that "Some pigs are more equal than others".

Hard to pick any side as the good guy when they are all squabbling over scraps from a very very large "pie".
The thing is, owners have expenses, players don't. So i can side with the owners fighting over more of the pie over players fighting for more of the pie.

I can understand an owner locking out his players because he's losing money and needs a new CBA to stop losing money. I'm not an idiot, i can respect this. Especially considering some lose less money by not playing and receiving part of the TV revenue.

I can't,however, side with the players who refuse to make $2,100,000.00 per year instead of the 2,600,000.00 average even if it means better financial stability for their industry(aka keep their jobs safe).

One side i can understand, the other i can't(especially considering the employees lose more money by refusing their boss' proposal)

One side is being smart. One side is being stupid.

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09-26-2012, 11:47 AM
  #87
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I don't know where the hell you get your numbers from, but the rumored amount Melnyk paid for the Senators was $100m and $30m for the arena. The franchise is now rumored to be worth about $200m according to Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/nhl-valuations/list/) which which means he has POTENTIALLY doubled his money...nowhere near "4X" his investment. He's also owned the team for 9 years - a decade by April of this season.

That's about a 10% ROI - on a year to year basis. Not great for a guy with deep pockets such as his...all of this while ignoring the yearly shortfall that the Senators run at, and the fact that to realize any of this investment he has to sell the team (and something tells me it's not an easy thing to off-load).

Of course, we're ignoring the fact that the previous owner/shareholders of their team lost their friggin' shirts with the sale of the Sens to Melnyk. So while one owner prospered, others failed.

According to that link above Melnyk and the Senators made 2.6 million last year...about 400k less than the superstar Chris Phillips made in guaranteed money.
Bumped for Tuna.

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09-26-2012, 12:26 PM
  #88
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Bumped for Tuna.
I heard Melnyk bought the team for $80 million ($71 million total for the team) - so if we google the purchase it we can all find numbers that tell us different things.

regardless - Melnyk bought the team and we are already in our second lockout in 7 years - if I closed my business for 1 full year, I'd be out of business and so would everybody on this board no matter what their business is - to do this all over again 7 years later, it's BS, the only reason we withstand is is because of the players and as far as I am concerned, they deserve what they get as the owners do.

Where is it written in stone that the owners have to make money and profit if they continually make bad decisions - for all those posters that say the players are priviledged and out of touch with the common man, show me a business owner that can close his business for 1 year, come back and say the problems are solved, complain 7 years later from a beach in the Barbados they are not rich enough because of their bad decisions so they are rolling back all their contracts so they can be richer - NEVER will happen in the real world

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09-26-2012, 12:38 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
I heard Melnyk bought the team for $80 million ($71 million total for the team) - so if we google the purchase it we can all find numbers that tell us different things.

regardless - Melnyk bought the team and we are already in our second lockout in 7 years - if I closed my business for 1 full year, I'd be out of business and so would everybody on this board no matter what their business is - to do this all over again 7 years later, it's BS, the only reason we withstand is is because of the players and as far as I am concerned, they deserve what they get as the owners do.

Where is it written in stone that the owners have to make money and profit if they continually make bad decisions - for all those posters that say the players are priviledged and out of touch with the common man, show me a business owner that can close his business for 1 year, come back and say the problems are solved, complain 7 years later from a beach in the Barbados they are not rich enough because of their bad decisions so they are rolling back all their contracts so they can be richer - NEVER will happen in the real world
Provide a google source for 71-80m (remember to combine the cost of the building).

Do you come back because of the players or do you come back because of the crest and because you love hockey? I don't care what guys are on the ice, I'll always watch...that's my choice (and some may call it stupid).

If the Sens traded away the entire roster would you tune out? Probably not.

All of this is entirely irrelevant. I posted clear numbers showing that Melnyk made 2.6m - less than a relatively average player like Chris Phillips makes in guaranteed money. In the mean time Melnyk has all of the risk, a huge amount of capital locked up, and contributes countless millions to the local and provincial economy. Face it, owners provide far more of a service than any of the players do, and on average make less than a 2nd liner.

The imbalance suggests that there should be some re-negotiation (ie, 43 players/57 owners) or at the very least 50/50. How you can so ardently support the players in this battle is mindnumbing.

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09-26-2012, 12:45 PM
  #90
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By the way, your argument is constantly morphing as you dodge the simple realities that owners face. Am I missing some numbers that you've posted previously showing the owners making a whole whack of money?

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09-26-2012, 12:50 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by corksens View Post
Provide a google source for 71-80m (remember to combine the cost of the building).

Do you come back because of the players or do you come back because of the crest and because you love hockey? I don't care what guys are on the ice, I'll always watch...that's my choice (and some may call it stupid).

If the Sens traded away the entire roster would you tune out? Probably not.

All of this is entirely irrelevant. I posted clear numbers showing that Melnyk made 2.6m - less than a relatively average player like Chris Phillips makes in guaranteed money. In the mean time Melnyk has all of the risk, a huge amount of capital locked up, and contributes countless millions to the local and provincial economy. Face it, owners provide far more of a service than any of the players do, and on average make less than a 2nd liner.

The imbalance suggests that there should be some re-negotiation (ie, 43 players/57 owners) or at the very least 50/50. How you can so ardently support the players in this battle is mindnumbing.
If this was the case Ottawa would not have a fan over 20 years old because they would all still be cheering for Montreal and Toronto.

You posted the $2.6 million, it doesn't show Melnyk's salary of $20 million in there does it? He pays himself first, trust me on this one - and the $2.6 million is the profit.

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09-26-2012, 01:09 PM
  #92
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If this was the case Ottawa would not have a fan over 20 years old because they would all still be cheering for Montreal and Toronto.

You posted the $2.6 million, it doesn't show Melnyk's salary of $20 million in there does it? He pays himself first, trust me on this one - and the $2.6 million is the profit.
Is this serious? You think Melnyk takes a salary of 20 million from the Senators?

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09-26-2012, 01:10 PM
  #93
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If this was the case Ottawa would not have a fan over 20 years old because they would all still be cheering for Montreal and Toronto.
This point makes no sense.

Ottawa gained fans because they got a team. Unless you are suggesting that this city was so enamored with the players who made up that first team winning 10 games overall.

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09-26-2012, 01:45 PM
  #94
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Is this serious? You think Melnyk takes a salary of 20 million from the Senators?
Do you think he became a billionaire by paying himself fairly?

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09-26-2012, 01:55 PM
  #95
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Do you think he became a billionaire by paying himself fairly?
You sir, don't know what the hell you are talking about.

He became a billionaire because HE started up a hyper successful pharmaceutical company and exercised legal share options as it became publicly traded.

Melnyk doesn't pay himself a salary of $20m from the Senators. You know that, I know that. Stop making up arguments.

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09-26-2012, 01:57 PM
  #96
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Oh, and again, an ever shifting argument.

To think you called others out for not providing "facts".

Pathetic.

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09-26-2012, 02:00 PM
  #97
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Do you think he became a billionaire by paying himself fairly?
You think people get rich by paying themselves inflated salaries from private companies that they entirely own?
Have you ever heard of income tax?

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09-26-2012, 02:13 PM
  #98
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You think people get rich by paying themselves inflated salaries from private companies that they entirely own?
Have you ever heard of income tax?
People that live on beaches dont pay taxes. Trust him.

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09-26-2012, 02:14 PM
  #99
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People that live on beaches dont pay taxes. Trust him.
That's a FACT!

Prove otherwise.

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09-26-2012, 02:16 PM
  #100
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By the way, if the Ottawa Senators made enough money for Melnyk to cover all of his liabilities (and player salaries) and then pay him $20 million a year that would be just fine.

But that isn't the case. He doesn't derive any salary from the team whatsoever. Any profit (2.6m as quoted before) is usually held over for the next years operating budget.

The only time Melnyk will realize any part of this investment is in it's eventual sale.

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