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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part III (First 2 weeks of season cancelled)

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Old
10-04-2012, 11:27 PM
  #526
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whats wrong with that? he doesn't give a **** about the people who make him that money: the fans.
The owners care about the fans just as much as he does.

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10-04-2012, 11:41 PM
  #527
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The owners care about the fans just as much as he does.
well i wasn't giving the owners a pass.

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10-04-2012, 11:43 PM
  #528
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Bettman doesn't have enough first-hand knowledge of the sport. He never played on any level, he never coached on any level, he never officiated on any level.

His connection to the sport is making money for (or from) the sport.

Messier, for example, or Davidson, guys who eat sleep and **** hockey at every level including the business side, would be exponentially more suited as a comissioner of this league.

Health of the game, Bettman doesn't know whats right for the on ice product. Not a clue. Liaten to him on his radio show. I used to listen to it a couple years ago. Guy is a lawyer/businessman. Not a hockey mind.

An owner of a club doesn't need to be. He just needs the cash flow and allow the people he hires to run the club.

The comissioner, the representative of the best major professional hockey league in the world should be represented by someone with a life long commitment to the sport. Messier, Davidson, Lemieux, Lou Lamoriello... people dedicated to the sport.

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10-04-2012, 11:48 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Bettman doesn't have enough first-hand knowledge of the sport. He never played on any level, he never coached on any level, he never officiated on any level.

His connection to the sport is making money for (or from) the sport.

Messier, for example, or Davidson, guys who eat sleep and **** hockey at every level including the business side, would be exponentially more suited as a comissioner of this league.

Health of the game, Bettman doesn't know whats right for the on ice product. Not a clue. Liaten to him on his radio show. I used to listen to it a couple years ago. Guy is a lawyer/businessman. Not a hockey mind.

An owner of a club doesn't need to be. He just needs the cash flow and allow the people he hires to run the club.

The comissioner, the representative of the best major professional hockey league in the world should be represented by someone with a life long commitment to the sport. Messier, Davidson, Lemieux, Lou Lamoriello... people dedicated to the sport.
Yes, because we all know how well Shanahan is doing in his front-office role. One example for certain, but I'd rather not have a guy as commissioner with no business knowledge.

I'm in the super minority here, but I think Bettman gets a bum rep. His job IS to make money, and keep the sport strong. In that order. Bettman is employed by the OWNERS, not the fans. It's Bettman's job to make sure the owners are making top dollar, and he does a damn good job at it for THE OWNERS. That's why he won't be fired, even if this entire season is lost.

Of course, at this moment, Bettman has pulled his product from the shelf and that's obviously no way to make money, we can all agree there. But it's a negotiating tactic to keep the money flowing to the owners as they see fit.

Stop just following the players on Twitter and listening to the bull **** that they're spewing. When a player calls out one of their own owners, that's when I'll give the edge to the players in this PR battle. When's Parise going to say, maybe it wasn't such a good idea for the Wild to throw all that money at me and Suter. When's Shea Weber going to say damn Ed, what were you thinking with that one?

Negotiations are a two-way street and I think both parties are at fault. But for the fans to put all the blame on Bettman? Just wrong.

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10-05-2012, 12:13 AM
  #530
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he's been a hockey guy much longer then he was ever a basketball guy. save it.
Really?!!

He lost me in 1994 when he said "Mark Messier... Come get the Stanley Cup" in such a cavalier and meh kinda way.

Hockey guys don't say it like "Take out the trash" or "Pass me the salt"

I vehemently dis-a-gree.

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10-05-2012, 02:23 AM
  #531
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Yes, because we all know how well Shanahan is doing in his front-office role. One example for certain, but I'd rather not have a guy as commissioner with no business knowledge.

I'm in the super minority here, but I think Bettman gets a bum rep. His job IS to make money, and keep the sport strong. In that order. Bettman is employed by the OWNERS, not the fans. It's Bettman's job to make sure the owners are making top dollar, and he does a damn good job at it for THE OWNERS. That's why he won't be fired, even if this entire season is lost.

Of course, at this moment, Bettman has pulled his product from the shelf and that's obviously no way to make money, we can all agree there. But it's a negotiating tactic to keep the money flowing to the owners as they see fit.

Stop just following the players on Twitter and listening to the bull **** that they're spewing. When a player calls out one of their own owners, that's when I'll give the edge to the players in this PR battle. When's Parise going to say, maybe it wasn't such a good idea for the Wild to throw all that money at me and Suter. When's Shea Weber going to say damn Ed, what were you thinking with that one?

Negotiations are a two-way street and I think both parties are at fault. But for the fans to put all the blame on Bettman? Just wrong.
Bettman also willing led the NHL owners into expansion and the placement of teams in areas where the sport has not been profitable. Most owners are not "hockey people" either--most of them made their money elsewhere. In 2004 the League argued that the then current structure was not sustainable and locked out the players in order to create a system that would be profitable for everyone (at least that was the claim). Now they have come back and are arguing once again that the system is not sustainable and that major changes must be (again) in order for the sport to remain viable. Supposedly, the majority of teams don't make money (ie profit for their owners). Yet, there has been absolutely no discussion as to why the business model has failed.

Why did the league allow another team in Atlanta? Why are they still supporting a team in Phoenix (the NHL has poured tens of millions of dollars into the team since they took it over) that has probably never broken even and should be a prime candidate for relocation? Why did Bettman and Co. ignore the fact that several of the owners who are his biggest supporters were handing out outrageous contracts even as the league was formulating an "offer" that would outlaw such contracts and would reduce the ones already signed (in some cases the day before the lockout began) by 24%?

I don't care that Bettman is a "basketball guy". My problem with him is that the business model he has implimented is--according to him--not sustainable. Not just once, but twice. Having some hockey sense might have helped prevent some of the problems the league is facing.

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10-05-2012, 04:00 AM
  #532
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don't kid yourself. he's as much a "basketball" guy as he is a "hockey" guy. you know what he was first in both leagues? a business man. a business man trying to make his employers, the owners, more money. what the **** is wrong with that?
Because there's a direct connection between knowing the game and knowing how to make money off it. Look at his record. These constant lockouts damage the value of his product. He has no insight for creative marketing and he's done very little to promote the league outside of North America the way Stern has with the NBA. He won't admit when he made a mistake with the Southern Strategy and has doubled down on markets like Phoenix to the detriment of the everyone. He locked the NHL into a long-term tv deal that pays out relatively little per team.

His entire economic model is based on squeezing every last drop out of the players. It's stupid, it pisses off the players, and destabilizes the league. The man is a myopic twit.

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10-05-2012, 07:47 AM
  #533
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Well at least we don't have a ridiculous West Coast road trip to start the season right? Right????
Totally cool with this lockout if the season starts right after that road trip was to end, and no one is injured in a foreign league.

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10-05-2012, 07:56 AM
  #534
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It's beyond me how anyone could defend Bettman's actions in any of the lockouts to date. This one by far proved they never had any intentions of trying to come to a deal prior to locking the players out. Bettman is the furthest thing from being a hockey person i could imagine. The CBA had an expiration date that has been in place for quite some time. Think we could have started negotiating a bit sooner? Just shameful on the owners, players and the sympathizers that can find a good reason why we are currently in lockout mode.

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10-05-2012, 08:58 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Bettman doesn't have enough first-hand knowledge of the sport. He never played on any level, he never coached on any level, he never officiated on any level.

His connection to the sport is making money for (or from) the sport.

Messier, for example, or Davidson, guys who eat sleep and **** hockey at every level including the business side, would be exponentially more suited as a comissioner of this league.

Health of the game, Bettman doesn't know whats right for the on ice product. Not a clue. Liaten to him on his radio show. I used to listen to it a couple years ago. Guy is a lawyer/businessman. Not a hockey mind.

An owner of a club doesn't need to be. He just needs the cash flow and allow the people he hires to run the club.

The comissioner, the representative of the best major professional hockey league in the world should be represented by someone with a life long commitment to the sport. Messier, Davidson, Lemieux, Lou Lamoriello... people dedicated to the sport.
Messier or any hockey player would most definitely not be more suited to be the commissioner. Even if you or other hockey fans think so, the owners don't give a ****.

Bettman's job isn't to play hockey. His job is to be a businessman and a lawman, which Messier is not. If you were an owner, I doubt you and the other 29 owners would trust Mark ****ing Messier to run a billion dollar industry.

Some of you guys need to get real.

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10-05-2012, 09:08 AM
  #536
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Messier or any hockey player would most definitely not be more suited to be the commissioner. Even if you or other hockey fans think so, the owners don't give a ****.

Bettman's job isn't to play hockey. His job is to be a businessman and a lawman, which Messier is not. If you were an owner, I doubt you and the other 29 owners would trust Mark ****ing Messier to run a billion dollar industry.

Some of you guys need to get real.
The thought that the owners would vote in a former player as commissioner of the league is beyond laughable.

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10-05-2012, 09:54 AM
  #537
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Really?!!

He lost me in 1994 when he said "Mark Messier... Come get the Stanley Cup" in such a cavalier and meh kinda way.

Hockey guys don't say it like "Take out the trash" or "Pass me the salt"

I vehemently dis-a-gree.
I can just picture it in Bettman's voice

"Captain Mark Messier... Pass me the salt!"

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10-05-2012, 10:05 AM
  #538
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Because there's a direct connection between knowing the game and knowing how to make money off it. Look at his record. These constant lockouts damage the value of his product. He has no insight for creative marketing and he's done very little to promote the league outside of North America the way Stern has with the NBA. He won't admit when he made a mistake with the Southern Strategy and has doubled down on markets like Phoenix to the detriment of the everyone. He locked the NHL into a long-term tv deal that pays out relatively little per team.

His entire economic model is based on squeezing every last drop out of the players. It's stupid, it pisses off the players, and destabilizes the league. The man is a myopic twit.

I don't think there is any correlation between knowing the game and making money off of it. Pete Rozelles is the greatest comissioner of any sport. He made the NFL what it is today.

He played hoops and baseball in HS, joined the Navy, and then got a job in PR. He eventually did work in PR for an NFL team, but I think it's safe to say he didn't know more about the game of football than the average fan and he did OK.

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10-05-2012, 10:16 AM
  #539
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It's beyond me how anyone could defend Bettman's actions in any of the lockouts to date. This one by far proved they never had any intentions of trying to come to a deal prior to locking the players out. Bettman is the furthest thing from being a hockey person i could imagine. The CBA had an expiration date that has been in place for quite some time. Think we could have started negotiating a bit sooner? Just shameful on the owners, players and the sympathizers that can find a good reason why we are currently in lockout mode.
Bettman and the league made overtures to begin negotiations last year and were re-buffed by Fehr.

Granted, it would have been a lousy offer but the facts seem to indicate that Fehr was OK going down this road and trying to use the "we're willing to play under old rules" card to garner sympathy.

They may have under-estimated how entrenched and illogical the owners can be.
They may also have under-estimated how little people in the US (outside of these boards).

The fact we have been through a few of these before as fans proves that even if we miss 20, 30, 40 games, it will be OK.
Plenty of football, still nice weather. If hockey comes back in Mid December and they play a 50 game schedule, I am OK with it. As a STH I actually save a few dollars. Call it apathy, but I know that many people (Maybe advertisers as well) probably agree with me.

I don't like feeling that they are taking me for granted, but I long got over that. It is what it is.

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10-05-2012, 10:30 AM
  #540
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Messier or any hockey player would most definitely not be more suited to be the commissioner. Even if you or other hockey fans think so, the owners don't give a ****.

Bettman's job isn't to play hockey. His job is to be a businessman and a lawman, which Messier is not. If you were an owner, I doubt you and the other 29 owners would trust Mark ****ing Messier to run a billion dollar industry.

Some of you guys need to get real.
"get real"

Bettman has seen 3 lockouts in less than 20 years as comissioner.

A guy who has the SPORT'S best interest and the knowledge of every aspect of it, would INFINITELY make a better leader in regards to this game.

Bettman's job is not only to nake money. You are dillusional if you think that's true.

The FANS are the ones who make this league. The on ice product is THE single most important aspect of this "business".

The revenue for the league may have grown, and it is not because of southern expansion. Expansion, specifically to some southern markets is the CORE issue with the league's problems. Something that happened under Bettman's tenure. Four relocations. Three lockouts. One full lost season.

His greatest claim of success is the implementation of the trapezoid and smaller neutral zone. Shootouts.

He has created more problems then solutions. This league will NEVER be "fixed" until the weak links are cut. The teams dragging this keague down because they can't sustain THEMSELVES.

Player saftey is also a massive concern. Record number of head injuries. NOTHING done to solve the issue other than rounded glass by the benches? No new equipment, no grandfathering of facial protection which 100 million percent would reduce head injuries.

Messier absolutely knows business. He knows player safety. He knows the game. He would see to it the most technologically advanced helmet be mandated in the league. One he coincidently bought into.

It doesn't need to be Messier. Someone with expansive knowledge of every aspect of the sport. Business and on ice product. Something Bettman does not have.

If you think the 1 billion jump in revenue is because of southern expansion and the trapezoid you're nuts.

Crosby and Ovechkin helped drive interest in the league. The on ice product is ALWAYS the reason for growth and success.

Betrman will see this league that already has the reputation of joke sideshow in the main stream US media market, gain more and more bad publicity.

Sports market themselves. Hockey is a niche sport. A regional sport. It is NOT a casual sunday afternoon reason to tailgate. Its more of a cult following. He will never understand it. Never. This league can NOT continue to be operated as if it can somehow compete with the NFL or MLB.

Bettman is not what this league needs, either.

I could care less about "sides". The players AND the owners are wrong. Bettman is wrong.

"The fans will be back" because hockey fans are the most loyal fans in sports. Its a cult following. Like i said. This isn't a casual sport.

When you read and hear about the apathy in markets like Columbus and Phoenix, you think they will recover from a lost season? Really?

There needs to be more people with knowledge of the sport in all aspects, in charge.

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10-05-2012, 10:34 AM
  #541
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SLEWS of people who know what they are talking about and are paid for their knowledge of the game, resonate the same thoughts on NHL radio everyday, as guest speakers.

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10-05-2012, 10:45 AM
  #542
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Please no Thank You Fans on the ice when the NHL plays again.

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10-05-2012, 10:53 AM
  #543
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SM, I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Your definition of a good Commissioner is a guy who will never, ever have a lockout and will care about the quality of the game (as you see it) above all other concerns. That's just not how the owners - in any league - see it. Like it or not, sports have become big business and revenue maximization is the primary concern.

Of course, in many scenarios, there is a very good argument to be made that what's good for the game is what's good for the business of the game. Quality of the product, etc. But that's not always the case. Hence why we've had work stoppages in every major sport over the last 20 years.

Now, I agree that Bettman's style is less than ideal and there are likely many businessmen who could've run the league to achieve the same or better results with less friction. But the fact of the matter is that Bettman has made the vast majority of the owners gobs of money and increased the value of their franchises dramatically under his tenure - and that's why he's still in his position.

When he's ever replaced, we should hope for a businessman who's much more skilled at problem solving and collaboration with labor as opposed to his old school, scorched earth, labor is the enemy approach. But make no mistake, he will be replaced by another person who is a businessman first and a hockey fan second.

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10-05-2012, 10:55 AM
  #544
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You think the lockouts are his fault? You think Bettman just wakes up the day the CBA expires and asks himself, "Hey, should I just lock the players out today?"

The owners want a lockout. If the owners were happy about this CBA, you still think that Bettman would try and make it better, with a result of locking the players out?

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10-05-2012, 11:07 AM
  #545
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SM, I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Your definition of a good Commissioner is a guy who will never, ever have a lockout and will care about the quality of the game (as you see it) above all other concerns. That's just not how the owners - in any league - see it. Like it or not, sports have become big business and revenue maximization is the primary concern.

Of course, in many scenarios, there is a very good argument to be made that what's good for the game is what's good for the business of the game. Quality of the product, etc. But that's not always the case. Hence why we've had work stoppages in every major sport over the last 20 years.

Now, I agree that Bettman's style is less than ideal and there are likely many businessmen who could've run the league to achieve the same or better results with less friction. But the fact of the matter is that Bettman has made the vast majority of the owners gobs of money and increased the value of their franchises dramatically under his tenure - and that's why he's still in his position.

When he's ever replaced, we should hope for a businessman who's much more skilled at problem solving and collaboration with labor as opposed to his old school, scorched earth, labor is the enemy approach. But make no mistake, he will be replaced by another person who is a businessman first and a hockey fan second.
Great post - totally agree.

In order to truly analyze this entire situation, you cant look at it through the prism of a hockey fan. The entire issue changes when it comes to a person who has business interests in a team and in the sport.

Messier has the business prowess now to run the national hockey league?? What a bunch of baloney.

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10-05-2012, 11:14 AM
  #546
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Bettman constantly miscalculates. Someone put the July 13 proposal together. That offer backfired on the owners. Friedman and Grange reported the NHL regrets that offer. It pissed the players off. Fehr didn't negotiate off of it. Bettman is responsible for the players not trusting him. Some of them still remember the 04 lockout. The others learned a crash course of Bettman hardball in July. Bettman's buddy Bob Batterman is his enforcer. They worked at the same law firm which now represents all 4 sports leagues. Batterman has the NHL and NFL while some other guy has the MLB and NBA. The owners wanted a lockout with their opening offer after the players made major concessions in 2005. Now they want more. Not only 50/50 or less than 50 for the players. They want immediate cuts in salaries. That is the biggest issue. The NHL needs to honor those contracts and put cap on escrow. Escrow would be 17% under the NHL's last proposal. 17% of salaries would be lost. You haven't read or heard much about the players getting anything for taking more concessions. The one concession they got in 2005 was younger free agency and now they want to take that away too. Some people still defend Bettman and the NHL after that. Incredible.


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10-05-2012, 11:15 AM
  #547
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You think the lockouts are his fault? You think Bettman just wakes up the day the CBA expires and asks himself, "Hey, should I just lock the players out today?"

The owners want a lockout. If the owners were happy about this CBA, you still think that Bettman would try and make it better, with a result of locking the players out?
I disagree here. That was the case in 2004-2005, but not now. I cant imagine the top 10 teams in the league in terms of revenue want a lockout.

Bettman's problem is he has no imagination whatsoever. Perhaps expanding the league into markets that were destined to fail has made him a little gunshy. Regardless, whenever he runs into a financial situation his solution is to take more cash from the players.

The majority of owners that actually want a lockout right now either bought into those crappy markets and/or have zero clue how to run a hockey franchise.

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10-05-2012, 11:35 AM
  #548
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The lockout is 100% Bettman's fault because the players don't trust him enough to be able to negotiate with him after the way he conducted himself the last time.

The players feel if they offer 50% today, tomorrow Bettman will ask them to take 40, so they are very hesitant to give the NHL an offer. Which is why we're stuck at both sides saying "We're just waiting for their offer", so nothing is happening.

The owners don't want a lockout, they want a better deal. A good commissioner would get both sides a deal they can live with without missing any games. Bettman has failed every time at this.

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10-05-2012, 11:40 AM
  #549
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The lockout is 100% Bettman's fault because the players don't trust him enough to be able to negotiate with him after the way he conducted himself the last time.

The players feel if they offer 50% today, tomorrow Bettman will ask them to take 40, so they are very hesitant to give the NHL an offer. Which is why we're stuck at both sides saying "We're just waiting for their offer", so nothing is happening.

The owners don't want a lockout, they want a better deal. A good commissioner would get both sides a deal they can live with without missing any games. Bettman has failed every time at this.
If you guys haven't noticed, Bill Daly has been used more as the main negotiating guy lately. I think he is going to take over Bettman's job when this all said and done.

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10-05-2012, 11:58 AM
  #550
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Please no Thank You Fans on the ice when the NHL plays again.
It should say **** You Fans

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