Ian Cole and the defense as a whole has been talked ad nauseam but when it comes to Cole specifically, I think folks argue a lot of things while actually having similar opinions. The bottom line isn’t if you trust Cole or not, it’s HOW MUCH do you trust him? Hopefully this poll can help answer that question. At what level of responsibility would you be comfortable with Cole playing?
Third pairing right now in my opinion. He could fill in on other pairings, but if everyone is healthy, I really would want to see him in the third pairing.
If he plays 18 minutes a game, I think he will be just fine. Let him go 16-17ish during even strength with some special teams sprinkled in.
For the people against Cole who don't like seeing him paired with Petro, it doesn't mean that he is going to be playing 20+ minutes. I'd prefer him either on the 3rd pairing or paired with Pietrangelo and in late, close games, Shattenkirk jumps up and plays with Petro.
Colaiacovo was mainly Pietrangelo's partner and he only averaged 19 minutes and during even strength, averaged 2 minutes less than Pietrangelo.
I voted third pairing and was baffled that someone voted first pairing.
I'm guessing that first pairing in that case simply means paired with Pietrangelo but really only has the minutes of a 2nd or 3rd pairing guy. If that's the case, then sure, I suppose I could live with Cole on the "first" pairing.
Yea I voted 1st pairing as in I would trust him to play alongside Petro. He couldnt be any worse than Carlo was last year and like another poster said, if its not working after 10+ games shake it up.
edit: Also I should say that he isn't my first choice, Id love to make a trade for someone who can fill that role but Im not as worried as some about giving Cole the opportunity.
If the Blues don't add another D Man then pairing Cole with Pie doesn't make a first pairing D man it means he is replacing Cola who no one would call a first pair D Man. I like Cole's upside and as we sit right now I would like to see how he does paired with Pie or Shattenkirk.
If the Blues don't add another D Man then pairing Cole with Pie doesn't make a first pairing D man it means he is replacing Cola who no one would call a first pair D Man. I like Cole's upside and as we sit right now I would like to see how he does paired with Pie or Shattenkirk.
I agree that he'll get maybe 16-17 even manpower minutes, and may end up teaming with Pietrangelo later this season. But, I think he'll start (being eased in) on the 3rd pairing, first. I'll be curious to see how he does in training camp and the exhibition season (I hope we have one).
I think the poll choices should be changed to minutes per game.
You'd also have to include responsibility of those minutes, so minutes per game isn't really less arbitrary. "Pairing" is not precise, but it's a fine guide.
As to the question, I voted second pairing. That's because the Blues' #4 and #5 guys get about the same amount of total icetime and 2/3 to 5 have a pretty close amount at even-strength. They have different responsibilities, but the mid-range defensemen on the Blues are close enough that any given guy will get more or less time and responsibility on any given night. Unless you think Cole is the Blues' absolute #6 or worse, I don't think it's fair to say you don't trust him on the second pairing.
If the Blues don't add another D Man then pairing Cole with Pie doesn't make a first pairing D man it means he is replacing Cola who no one would call a first pair D Man. I like Cole's upside and as we sit right now I would like to see how he does paired with Pie or Shattenkirk.
I agree with this. Just because Cole would be on the top pair does not mean that he is one of the top two defensemen on the team.
I agree that he'll get maybe 16-17 even manpower minutes, and may end up teaming with Pietrangelo later this season. But, I think he'll start (being eased in) on the 3rd pairing, first. I'll be curious to see how he does in training camp and the exhibition season (I hope we have one).
3rd pairing for Cole is the best scenario in training camp and go from there. IMO : The Blues will still need to go the trade route for a puck moving, minutes eating, top pair defenseman to go with Pietrangelo's and Armstrong will have to deal more then picks for this to happen, to fill a enormous hole on the roster.
Ian Cole - first-round draft pick. Highly touted by Blues.
Two years of pro experience.
It's time to see what he can do. Start the season on the first pair.
Why should his draft position, how touted he's been or his 2 yrs of pro experience matter?? Players should get rewarded with increased opportunities and/or icetime because of their play/performance/development. That's it. Besides, I wouldn't even say Cole's been that overly highly touted. Perhaps he's been overhyped by some fans but not directly from the Blues IMO.
What has Cole shown as a 6th d-man when others are injured to all of a sudden be ready for top pairing responsibility? Yes, of course Petro will play more minutes than his partner no matter who it is but the point is that Petro will be facing the opposing teams' top line(s) and thus so will his partner. Do you really think Cole is ready for that?
Regarding the argument of some that Cola wasn't very good thus Cole doesn't have a high bar to reach...shouldn't the Blues strive to be better than that?? Simply putting Cole in that spot simply because he's a lefty and the Blues need a lefty doesn't make sense IMO. The Blues need a 1st pairing LD while Cole is currently more of a 3rd pair LD with 2nd pair LD potential. Slotting him there is convenient but that doesn't make it a good idea.
The lack of a true top pairing LD was easily the team's biggest hole last season and as of today, it's an even bigger hole as the Blues have replaced Huskins with Woywitka and haven't replaced Cola yet. It's a huge gaping hole and band aids won't work IMO.
If the Blues do start the season with what they currently have, I'm sure Cole will be tried a bit with Peteo but the point of his poll is, do folks honestly think that will be successful in their guts? According to JR though, it sounds like if they do stick with what they have, pairings will likely be:
Petro-Shatty
Russell-Polak
Jacks-Cole
JR was also quick to say the other day that those lines would likely be a temporary solution (bandaid) while Army continues his search for a trade for a more permanent and much better fix to the most glaring weakness I the team.
I think the Blues could get by during the regular season with the current D corps but in the playoffs, would anyone really consider the Blues true Cup contenders with a D of Petro, Shatty, Jacks, Polak, Russell, Cole & Woywitka?? Imagine if Petro got hurt. It's a very weak D corps from a depth perspective. Shouldn't we strive for better than a band aid option of putting a kid like Cole on the top pairing?? Cole has 2nd pairing upside IMO but he can really only be trusted in 3rd pairing to borderline 2nd/3rd pairing opportunities at this point IMO.
Last edited by STL fan in IA: 07-24-2012 at 12:09 PM.
I think those pairings are actually pretty good before injuries. Injecting Woywitka or Fairchild into the lineup for any of those players makes us significantly weaker though in my opinion.
Shatty and Petro pairing will be very fun to watch. If they gel, it could become one of the best pairings in the league.
I think those pairings are actually pretty good before injuries. Injecting Woywitka or Fairchild into the lineup for any of those players makes us significantly weaker though in my opinion.
Shatty and Petro pairing will be very fun to watch. If they gel, it could become one of the best pairings in the league.
It would be nice if it worked but Petro-Shatty were paired together a bit last season and it didn't seem to work out too well. Perhaps that will change with a full camp to gel together but they seemed to not mesh well in that they both would look to jump up leading to many defensive breakdowns. That pairing along with the other 2 pairings JR listed make the most sense if they are to start the season with what they currently have though.
Obviously, you only play based on what the coaches see.
Only pointing out that Jarmo and the Blues scouts saw a lot of potential in Cole and he's gained some pro experience.
That matters. He isn't an undersized, mid-round draft pick who's played a couple of seasons with a last place team.
I guess I just don't see it that way at all. The way I see it, the cameras catching Jarmo saying, "He's a MAN!" during a draft special in regards to Cole being more physically developed than most 17/18 year olds at the time and then them drafting him in the 1st rd that year really doesn't hold that much weight 5 yrs later. Hockey is a what have you done for me lately type of business. By no means am I saying that Cole has performed poorly or anything but I don't see any way in which he's earned 1st pairing type of responsibility and I don't think his draft position or Jarmo's comments from 5 yrs ago should really play into things either. How has Cole earned the right and the responsibility to play against the league's best alongside Petro?
I guess I just don't see it that way at all. The way I see it, the cameras catching Jarmo saying, "He's a MAN!" during a draft special in regards to Cole being more physically developed than most 17/18 year olds at the time and then them drafting him in the 1st rd that year really doesn't hold that much weight 5 yrs later. Hockey is a what have you done for me lately type of business. By no means am I saying that Cole has performed poorly or anything but I don't see any way in which he's earned 1st pairing type of responsibility and I don't think his draft position or Jarmo's comments from 5 yrs ago should really play into things either. How has Cole earned the right and the responsibility to play against the league's best alongside Petro?
How did Colaiacovo or Huskins earn that right?
I'm not saying either one of them are garbage either.
I'm not saying either one of them are garbage either.
So by not answering the question are you admitting that Cole hasn't earned the right?
Regarding Cola and Huskins, I would say that they proved a lot more in the league a year ago than what Cole has proven to now but beyond that though and to the crux of my argument - SHOULDN'T WE STRIVE FOR BETTER??? The question isn't, "given what the Blues have, would you be ok with trying Cole paired with Petro?". The question is, "At what responsibility level are you comfortable with Cole playing?". That's not the same question at all. Would you honestly feel comfortable with Cole on the top pairing going agasint the opposing top lines? Do you honestly consider the Blues to be Cup contenders with Cole on the top pairing?
So by not answering the question are you admitting that Cole hasn't earned the right?
Regarding Cola and Huskins, I would say that they proved a lot more in the league a year ago than what Cole has proven to now but beyond that though and to the crux of my argument - SHOULDN'T WE STRIVE FOR BETTER??? The question isn't, "given what the Blues have, would you be ok with trying Cole paired with Petro?". The question is, "At what responsibility level are you comfortable with Cole playing?". That's not the same question at all. Would you honestly feel comfortable with Cole on the top pairing going agasint the opposing top lines? Do you honestly consider the Blues to be Cup contenders with Cole on the top pairing?
I've said I am just fine with Cole playing around 18 minutes a game, which was what Colaiacovo and Huskins did when they were paired with Pietrangelo. I have full confidence that Cole would do just fine in the role that those 2 played.
I feel like some people are twisting the words of people who are high on Cole. No one is saying that he is one of our best defenseman, but for the best balance and pairings, he would do well with Pietrangelo.
Pietrangelo is the caliber of player that can make his partner look a lot better, Colaiacovo and Huskins are prime examples. Huskins was signed to be a 7th and Pietrangelo made him look solid on the 1st pairing.
Remember when Pronger and MacInnis were here and they played with crap partners. Jackman got started with MacInnis, what did he do to earn that at the time? The benefit of having Norris caliber defensemen, is that you don't have to have top caliber partners for them. They make other pairings better because you can put more talented players together on the 2nd and 3rd pairings.
