Well when you have infallible glasses, why bother with discussion? You're the vector of truth! This board, and our engagements, are below you. My apologies.
Hey if you wanna bring up dumb arguments such as "Red Wing hater glasses" on why my opinion is wrong, what do you expect me to do?
It's just so dumb because why would i spend thousands of dollars on tickets a year, spend god knows how many hours on HFBoards talking about something i hate?
You can hate the decisions, but not the organization. I know it sounds crazy.
They'll be forced to change no matter what. You'll get your wish. We're not in any particularly disagreement there, other than my annoyance with the posturing that some folks pretend to have all the answers... after the fact.
My point was, there's no evidence to show they'd be better today had they not signed veterans over the last few years. And I pointed to examples of teams producing high numbers of drafted players to their roster who failed to develop into difference makers even to the level of 40-point-per year old man Bertuzzi.
Worry not, your concerns are heard and echoed, as the drum for change has been beat so loudly here that it's rivaling that of a Neil Peart solo.
Gambling with rookies>Keeping Bert, Cleary, Sammy and the rest of the garbage. Imagine if they had played Smith and Nyquist the whole year last season? Give Kindl more minutes. I saw his awful mistakes too and i would take that over the slow and painful death we are witnessing. Would the results have been any different? Maybe not make the playoffs? Meh, who cares about the playoffs if you dont have a roster that can win a single round?
The safe bet only makes sense is if you have a lot to lose by playing rookies. The Wings dont have anything to lose at this point.
I hate(d) that decision of putting Smith back to minors. He will be making rookie mistakes this year or whenever the season starts. Last year would have been great opportunity to play with one of the if no THE best Dman in decades.
Nyquist, well maybe he needed a season in the minors. Maybe Tatar too. I think they would be close to ready this year but too bad we don't have spots for them. They aren't cutting Bert or Sammy. Though Babcock likes competing kids for the roster spots.. meh, this ain't still good.
That seriously pisses me off more than anything, that people can't believe that.
When people like Benchy say silly things like the Wings weren't soundly beaten, it actually detracts from all the success the Wings have had over the years,
Apparently, winning a playoff series in 5 games against a superior team is pretty easy to do.
If you're going to minimize losses, you're minimizing victory.
Meaning we won't have actual reasonable debate on these boards for another two or three years?
Make no mistake I never pretend to have all the answers and I know damn well what I post is opinion.
What baffles me here are all the experts who play fantasy GM and criticize Holland at every opportunity and usually after the fact. If you predict doom year after year, duh, you will be right the vast majority of the time. That's easy and cheap.
We all want more from this team, but I attempt to address the most fallacious arguments, which surprise... puts me in the crosshairs of a few choice posters.
Make no mistake I never pretend to have all the answers and I know damn well what I post is opinion.
What baffles me here are all the experts who play fantasy GM and criticize Holland at every opportunity and usually after the fact. If you predict doom year after year, duh, you will be right the vast majority of the time. That's easy and cheap.
We all want more from this team, but I attempt to address the most fallacious arguments, which surprise... puts me in the crosshairs of a few choice posters.
Make no mistake, if you lie and misrepresent others, you'll look like a liar.
I've been wrong about things with this team. But for the most part, I've been right about whether or not this team is a cup contender.
I was optimistic about this team in the 90s after getting Shanny
I was pessimistic as this team got older and Ozzie floundered in the playoffs.
I was optimistic in 02 after getting Hasek, Hull and Robitaille.
I was pessimistic as the team got older and we lost Fedorov
I was optimistic after 07 when both Datsyuk and Zetterberg took over the team.
I was pessimistic after 09 when we lost with Hossa, and then lost Hossa, Sammy and Hudler.
I remain pessimistic about this team.
In the past, Holland has addressed the needs of this team (Shanny and Larionov) (Hasek over Osgood in 02), (speeding up a slow defense with Rafalski and Stuart in 08).....
These were all big needs Holland addressed.
The needs we've had since 09? Not even close. And if you ask me, each and every year, the list of needs has been compounded to the point where Holland needed to have a ridiculously good summer this year to make Detroit a good team.
By addressing needs and introducing youth along the way, this cluster(((( of an offseason could have avoided.
Filppula havent been great when playing in Jokerit, not bad at all but not great.. Even if his brother has bit more flash than him he has been over shadowed by him, and that shoulnd happen when other one is NHL 1st liner and other is ppg ahl player..
Filppula havent been great when playing in Jokerit, not bad at all but not great.. Even if his brother has bit more flash than him he has been over shadowed by him, and that shoulnd happen when other one is NHL 1st liner and other is ppg ahl player..
Yeah I mentioned this earlier in this thread. I don't thinks he's trying at 100% but I also don't think he's game is suited at C so well.. maybe 2nd line C on a balanced team but that's it.
Gambling with rookies>Keeping Bert, Cleary, Sammy and the rest of the garbage. Imagine if they had played Smith and Nyquist the whole year last season? Give Kindl more minutes. I saw his awful mistakes too and i would take that over the slow and painful death we are witnessing. Would the results have been any different? Maybe not make the playoffs? Meh, who cares about the playoffs if you dont have a roster that can win a single round?
The safe bet only makes sense is if you have a lot to lose by playing rookies. The Wings dont have anything to lose at this point.
I just can't understand this argument. The Wings finished 5th in the conference. They were one of the best teams in the league before the All-star break and you want to go into full rebuild?
I just can't understand this argument. The Wings finished 5th in the conference. They were one of the best teams in the league before the All-star break and you want to go into full rebuild?
I don't care how they did in the standings. For the record, they won 23 straight at home and were #1 in the league during February and still couldn't win their division.
I saw how they were dismantled by Nashville and they aren't even that good.
The current roster is hopelessly outmatched by the majority of top eight team's in the Western Conference.
Wings are dangerously close to Calgary Flames territory. I actually think they are already there since there is absolutely no difference between losing in the 1st round and finishing as the 9th seed. (from a fan perspective and organizational standpoint) Mike Ilitch probably like's those two extra home games.
1.Blues
2/3 Preds
2/3 Chicago
4.Detroit
All of those team's have better defense or a better goalie than Detroit and in Nashville/St.Louis's case, they have both.
The offense has gotten progressively worse since 2009/10 and i don't mean statistically. Detroit is still better than Nashville and St.Louis offensively. You could argue that they still have a better offense than Chicago. Factoring the age of their primary play makers/scorers, it becomes pretty clear which one will be better in the very near future. probably this upcoming season if it happens. Detroit's offense is no longer as dynamic or dangerous. Yes you have Z and Datsyuk, but once the playoffs start and they get shut down, where do you find that offense? The depth is awful so you lose in the playoffs because nobody can step up. Mike Babcock felt that Helm going down was the key reason why the Wings didnt have a chance against Nashville. That should scare you. Relying on Darren Helm in that capacity just goes to show how worthless the rest of the depth is. I think Helm is a great player, but he should not be the make or break factor of a playoff series. Flip needed to show up, and of course he was nowhere to be seen. Scoring in the regular season is much easier than scoring in the playoffs. These vanishing acts have become common place since 2010.
You are not protecting anything worth protecting. It's like having 24/7 security on an abandoned building. What's the point? Better to demolish it and build something useful. Unfortunately Ken Holland does not share this sentiment, which is exactly the reason why the Wings have become so weak since their last trip to the Finals.
I just can't understand this argument. The Wings finished 5th in the conference. They were one of the best teams in the league before the All-star break and you want to go into full rebuild?
Wrong. People want to see youth introduced instead of buried. The worse holland is at gradual introducing youth, the more dramatic the rebuild will be
Wrong. People want to see youth introduced instead of buried. The worse holland is at gradual introducing youth, the more dramatic the rebuild will be
What youth is burried? Show me an example of a player who has left the Wings to prove Holland wrong. Lieno? Yeah he was super with out Briere on his line. Mattias Ritola? Or is this just about Nyquist and Tatar? two guys who don't have NHL strength. But they are close now. Brendan Smith? Is it really hurting him to play one year in the AHL? There are other ways of rebuilding a team other than the Penguin, Capital, Oiler model.
What youth is burried? Show me an example of a player who has left the Wings to prove Holland wrong. Lieno? Yeah he was super with out Briere on his line. Mattias Ritola? Or is this just about Nyquist and Tatar? two guys who don't have NHL strength. But they are close now. Brendan Smith? Is it really hurting him to play one year in the AHL? There are other ways of rebuilding a team other than the Penguin, Capital, Oiler model.
Wings are already hurting because smith barely played in the NHL last year.
Mursak and Tatar are basically never going to get a chance to prove themselves thanks to signing players like mike modano and Sammy. The modano signing was somewhat justifiable though since it was coming off a season where the wings just lost a cup. Veterans over youth is perfectly fine for a contending team since veterans are usually more responsible which means less mistakes in the playoffs. That was the last year the wings were contenders. Unfortunately injuries derailed the season which allowed holland to believe that he didn't need to tweak anything. That was a major miscalculation and partially why the wings are currently in this position.
The Brunner signing hurts too, but he is actually young so it's tolerable. Why hasn't Cleary been traded yet? Replacing players like the ones I have mentioned for rookies gave the wings a better chance of being a better team. The status quo only works when you have a really good thing going.
A roster Losing two years in a row to the sharks and getting annihilated by the preds isn't worth saving.
Of course the main culprit is letting players like Bert and homer stick around. I would argue abdelkader is totally worthless too. The other signings just made a bad situation even worse.
Holland panicked when lidstrom retired and only had one chance to dig himself out of the giant hole he dug the wings into. Parise/Suter. Once that failed he should have realized it was time to give the rookies a shot. Having veteran players like Sammy who have almost no upside makes no sense considering the wings are rebuilding. Don't let ken holland try to feed you that garbage, "rebuild on the fly." Losing half of your top four D and replacing it with nothing is a sure fire ticket to mediocrity. I would feel a lot better about the D if smith had played a full season in the NHL last year. Now his trial by fire is with no lidstrom and basically praying he ends up being a Calder finalist. Now we have nyquist who has leap frogged players who never got to prove themselves. Obviously it's great that he is developing so quickly but who know what happens to Tatar and mursak. The log jam is only getting worse too.
Last edited by WingedWheel1987: 11-14-2012 at 11:31 PM.
What youth is burried? Show me an example of a player who has left the Wings to prove Holland wrong. Lieno? Yeah he was super with out Briere on his line. Mattias Ritola? Or is this just about Nyquist and Tatar? two guys who don't have NHL strength. But they are close now. Brendan Smith? Is it really hurting him to play one year in the AHL? There are other ways of rebuilding a team other than the Penguin, Capital, Oiler model.
Are you new to this board?
How about Kyle Quincey, for one.
They guy who we let go to keep 47 year old Chelios even though Quincey showed he looked ready in his playoff stint.
And then we wasted a first round pick to get him back.
How about Jan Mursak for two.
How Did we really need Mike Modano two years ago? We really needed to resign Bertuzzi and Holmstrom for two years ... and to sign Modano?
If this season gets started this year...we're going to have to send Nyquist to the AHL unless we move someone or unless people stay injured all year.
Big deal, right?
If you ask me, right now, we have 3 AHL forwards who should already be on the team. Nyquist, Tatar and Andersson. Nyquist and Tatar should compete for top 9 roles and Andersson should be trying to win a 4th line job.
Nyquist is 23. Andersson is 23. Tatar is 21.
If those guys don't make it this year, now we're going to try to break them in next year? At 24, 24 and 22?
Oh, and right behind them you've got Jarnkrok, who will be 22 when next season starts. You;ve got Pulkkinen who should come over next season at 22.
If Ferraro finishes this season with 25 goals and 25 assists, shouldn't he get a look next year?
And we still haven't seen what Jan Mursak brings.
We didn't need to resign Mikeal Samuelsson this year. Especially not for 2 years. We didn't need to bring back Bertuzzi this year. Especially not for 2 years. And as much as I like Tootoo and what he brings, I think we could have went without him too.
Here's a lineup without Sammy and Bert
Nyqust Datsyuk Cleary
Flip Zetterberg Brunner
Tatar Helm Tootoo
Miller Abdelkader Mursak
RESERVE: Andersson/Eaves/Emmerton
Now if that looks young to you, imagine if Nyquist got all of last year in.and Mursak already had two full years in, like he should have..
Instead... perhaps only Nyquist will get a shot this year. And maybe none of them (thanks Gary Bettman).
Our farm system has never been more full than it is right now. And we're doing a bad job graduating guys into the NHL. Main reason is because we keep wasting spots on mediocre veterans.
------------------------------------
Bottom line is, introduce youth gradually or face a dramatic rebuild.
This isn't the 2002 Red Wings. Mikeal Samuelsson isn't Brett Hull or Luc Robitaille or Igor Larionov.
