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The John Davidson saga -- That's Incredible!

View Poll Results: Should we hire John Davidson?
Sure, what the hell. 69 92.00%
No, and I'll explain my "no" in a long-winded post. 0 0%
It's too soon in the season to be making any moves. 1 1.33%
I'm an idiot. 5 6.67%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-24-2012, 11:27 AM
  #251
CapnCornelius
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"In the pipeline" was something I said to refer to players who had not yet made the NHL on a full-time basis. However, the citing of the lone example of an All-Star anywhere in the organization, particularly one as divisive as Nash, proves my point better.

However, because I like to drown people in information, I decided to run with your unspoken question, which is, "Since 2007, who HAS drafted a player of Nash's caliber?" And then my question, which is, "Could Columbus have drafted him without moving up?" The second part is merely because we have no idea what it would take to move up, and as much as I like theoreticals, I also know the heavy price that can be paid to move up.
****
I think lost from your "moving up" talk is the fact that the Jackets would have moved up had Howson made the decision that seems obvious from your argument on Day 1--rebuild. If the cupboard was as bare as you argue, he should have seen this and made the hard decision to sacrifice the moment for the future. He didn't. Had he, the Jackets could well have selected even higher than they did in those early years.

I've said for some time that Howson's problem was that he straddled the fence between "win now" and "build for the future" when he should have went all in one way or the other.

Hopefully with Davidson's arrival there is a clear direction whatever it is and that direction is communicated to the fans. Enough secret plans that only Rick Nash gets to hear about.

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10-24-2012, 11:50 AM
  #252
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Just got home to see an email from the Jackets that Davidson got the job. This is good news. The first step on the road to recovery is admitting the organization had no leadership in the hockey ops department. Check. JPMac, good one.

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10-24-2012, 11:52 AM
  #253
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Just got home to see an email from the Jackets that Davidson got the job. This is good news. The first step on the road to recovery is admitting the organization had no leadership in the hockey ops department. Check. JPMac, good one.

Just saw that on my fb feed!

set to introduce him at 2pm!!!

ITS OFFICIAL!

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10-24-2012, 11:56 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by CapnCornelius View Post
I think lost from your "moving up" talk is the fact that the Jackets would have moved up had Howson made the decision that seems obvious from your argument on Day 1--rebuild. If the cupboard was as bare as you argue, he should have seen this and made the hard decision to sacrifice the moment for the future. He didn't. Had he, the Jackets could well have selected even higher than they did in those early years.

I've said for some time that Howson's problem was that he straddled the fence between "win now" and "build for the future" when he should have went all in one way or the other.

Hopefully with Davidson's arrival there is a clear direction whatever it is and that direction is communicated to the fans. Enough secret plans that only Rick Nash gets to hear about.
Interesting theory, considering that a good 90% of the anti-Howson group is convinced that this team is in much worse shape in every way than the day that he took over. The idea that the cupboard was bare, which to me seems plainly obvious, is still very much a minority opinion.

I enjoy historical "what-ifs" though. Let's say that Howson came in and announced a rebuild. The team had been suffering from four straight years of falling attendance; would a rebuild announcement have caused a hemorrhage of STHs and other hardcore fans? Would it have caused the value of players on the roster and in the farm system to plummet? Would it have damaged the team's ability to sign free agents, knowing that they were simply depth and wouldn't be around to see anything resembling contention? I say "yes, yes, and yes". In other words, it would have crippled (possibly irreparably) the franchise.

For all the talk about "Howson shouldn't have talked about Nash, now there's no leverage", the suggestion that a rebuild should have been announced immediately or at least early on would have done exactly that and to a much greater extent. A shift in the value of one player compared to a shift in the value of 40+ guys under contract and 60+ on the reserve list...yeah.

Now, I'll be the first to admit that I didn't see the cupboard as being bare back in 2007. Nor in 2008. And by 2009, as it became clear that several of Dougie's favorite prospects weren't prospects at all, I started to look a bit more closely. Dougie is right that anyone would have taken Brule in 2005 or Brassard in 2006. We all knew it. We heard about the great Kris Russell, or the bruising power forward Alex Picard, or the cannonading Andrei Plekhanov. We knew this not just from the CBJ side, but from around the league. So I don't know that it was possible for anyone to come in in 2007 and declare "We're screwed, let's start over."

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10-24-2012, 12:26 PM
  #255
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Davidson, 59, will report to majority owner John P. McConnell and will have control of the team's hockey operations, including general manager Scott Howson, according to the Columbus Dispatch. The paper said team president Mike Priest will remain with the team but will focus on the business side of the organization.
Direct from nhl.com

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10-24-2012, 12:26 PM
  #256
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Interesting theory, considering that a good 90% of the anti-Howson group is convinced that this team is in much worse shape in every way than the day that he took over.
During the middle of the season, they had a point too. They had high priced, under performing talent.

The Jackets had a team that didn't like each other, no high end prospects in the minors, and no cap room.

Getting rid of Carter and Nash certainly have helped both of those problems, but the problems were there. I think the way that Howson is heading now is a good one, but he definitely had some on the job training there. He tried to force our team to be a fast moving scoring team and put all the assets into forwards.

I much prefer the direction the Jackets are moving now, although there is certainly more work to be done. Davidson will help tremendously in shaping the organization and providing leadership for Howson. Howson now has tremendous assets around him to use at any point with Patrick and Davidson.

I'm willing to give Howson one more chance at this, but he is on his last strike. If the team he is building now is not a playoff team in 2 years, then he should be fired on the day after the 2014 season...provided the NHL is still in business, I suppose.

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10-24-2012, 12:31 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
"In the pipeline" was something I said to refer to players who had not yet made the NHL on a full-time basis. However, the citing of the lone example of an All-Star anywhere in the organization, particularly one as divisive as Nash, proves my point better.

However, because I like to drown people in information, I decided to run with your unspoken question, which is, "Since 2007, who HAS drafted a player of Nash's caliber?" And then my question, which is, "Could Columbus have drafted him without moving up?" The second part is merely because we have no idea what it would take to move up, and as much as I like theoreticals, I also know the heavy price that can be paid to move up.

Anaheim - No, despite Toronto fans thinking that Jake Gardiner (2008) is already better than Ray Bourque
Atlanta - No. Evander Kane is their best player drafted from 2007-12.
Boston - Tyler Seguin may or may not be better than Nash. Regardless, as a #2 overall pick (2010), the ability to move up into a clear top-two was limited.
Buffalo - No. A couple of nice players (Ennis and Myers, both 2008), but Myers specifically has been all over the place.
Calgary - No, although they think Baertschi is already there.
Carolina - Jeff Skinner is far and away their best player, but just had the type of down year that can be expected from a young player. Whether he ends up a perennial All-Star or perennial tease remains to be seen.
Chicago - Patrick Kane, who was a 1st overall pick.
Colorado - Gabriel Landeskog and Matt Duchene are in the conversation, but both of them would have involved moving up.
Dallas - If we're going to say Jamie Benn, we have to acknowledge that no one else thought he was worth a damn either.
Detroit - No.
Edmonton - Ryan Nugent-Hopkins, Taylor Hall, possibly Jordan Eberle. Eberle was a 22nd overall pick who fell past several other teams with excellent draft reputations.
Los Angeles - Drew Doughty was a 2nd overall pick, which would have involved moving up.
Minnesota - No. Nick Leddy is their best pick, and he was traded for Cam Barker anyway.
Montreal - Despite the 2007 drafting of Subban, McDonagh, and Pacioretty, I think it would be a stretch to say that any of them are better than Nash.
Nashville - No.
New Jersey - No. Adam Henrique and Adam Larsson are one year into their respective careers, and Larsson couldn't have been acquired anyway (even by keeping the pick).
NY Islanders - John Tavares, who was a 1st overall pick.
NY Rangers - Del Zotto and Stepan are still young, and may or may not end up better. They clearly are not better now.
Ottawa - Depends on how you feel about Erik Karlsson.
Philadelphia - No.
Phoenix - No, although Ekman-Larsson has a chance to be better.
Pittsburgh - No.
St. Louis - Alex Pietrangelo was a 4th overall pick and would have involved moving up.
San Jose - No, but Logan Couture comes closest. And no one else comes close to him.
Tampa Bay - Steven Stamkos was a 1st overall pick.
Toronto - Nazem Kadri, amirite?
Vancouver - No.
Washington - No.

What we're forced to recognize is that, despite claims to the contrary, the only players since 2007 who are clearly on the same level or better than Rick Nash were inaccessible. Those would be Doughty, Tavares, Stamkos, and possibly Kane. Perhaps several other players will end up better, but then we're circling right back around to whether they'll end up better than the CBJ draft picks. We can't blast away for not taking Cam Fowler in 2010, unless you're willing to declare Ryan Johansen a complete bust.
How many players do you think the CBJ drafted in that time that are as good or better than each player on this list? How many of these players were drafted AFTER the CBJ picked?

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10-24-2012, 12:41 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Interesting theory, considering that a good 90% of the anti-Howson group is convinced that this team is in much worse shape in every way than the day that he took over. The idea that the cupboard was bare, which to me seems plainly obvious, is still very much a minority opinion.
Where in the world did you come up with 90%? I've been, historically, his most consistent critic and I've never said anything of the sort. I would be surprised if a poll came remotely close to backing up that number.

The verdict is out on his drafting history, but that's pretty common in the NHL from the 2007 draft on.

The cupboard being bare is an issue, but he did have assets to work with. Some of that being money and going FA. His trade history, which checkered, is a lot better than he FA choices.

It will be Davidson's choice, obviously, on what he wants to do with the GM. But there shouldn't be anyone outside of his family that defends his job to the point that they say he has earned his next contract. There simply is no metric you can use to support the opinion.

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10-24-2012, 12:44 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by TaketheCannoli View Post
How many players do you think the CBJ drafted in that time that are as good or better than each player on this list? How many of these players were drafted AFTER the CBJ picked?
Are we seriously going to be passing ultimate judgment on guys drafted since 2007 who still have an awful lot to prove? Maybe it's just me, but I've seen a hell of a lot of "future stars" come and go across all sports, and know full well that in a sport like hockey, unless the guy is a sure-fire HOFer, five or six years post-draft is usually way too early to start deciding who's made it and who hasn't.

I say this only because I've spent the better part of 20 years needling one of my friends (a longtime Atlanta Braves fan) for his 1990-94 declarations that Atlanta was run by a bunch of fools for passing on Alex Fernandez to take "some crap 3rd baseman". And that crap 3rd baseman is named Chipper Jones, and is one of the five best at his position in MLB history.

Sure, Jeff Skinner has done more in the NHL than Ryan Johansen. That doesn't mean he will this year, or for the next...I 'unno, 17 years of their careers. Sure, Logan Couture has done more than Jakub Voracek, but that doesn't mean that people remember than Couture had mono and a knee injury in his draft year and dropped because of that while Voracek was a consensus top-3 pick the entire season. We can even talk about Nikita Filatov, particularly since several of those 2008 draft picks either just finished up their rookie season or haven't even cracked the NHL full-time yet.

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10-24-2012, 12:54 PM
  #260
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This music they're playing before the press conference starts kinda blows.

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10-24-2012, 12:55 PM
  #261
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This music they're playing before the press conference starts kinda blows.


Fire Priest.

*Had to get one in before the Davidson era officially begins.

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10-24-2012, 12:58 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by ClevelandJacketFan View Post


Fire Priest.

*Had to get one in before the Davidson era officially begins.
It's just really generic watered down hard rock/metal riffing with no real production values. It bothers me that someone likely got paid money for it. It honestly sounds like rejected tracks from the Dynasty Warriors games if anyone has ever played those.

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10-24-2012, 01:12 PM
  #263
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Where's the sound?

So I've got sound now, but it's choppy as hell.

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10-24-2012, 01:15 PM
  #264
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"...the competition side of our business..."

That's some crazy BS-speak right there.

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10-24-2012, 01:17 PM
  #265
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"...the competition side of our business..."

That's some crazy BS-speak right there.
Trying to cover Priest's arse.

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10-24-2012, 01:23 PM
  #266
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And the big-time thanks to Rims. Old friend, helped sell us on coming here, etc.

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10-24-2012, 01:23 PM
  #267
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Rimer gets a shout out from John Davidson during the press conference.

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10-24-2012, 01:27 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Interesting theory, considering that a good 90% of the anti-Howson group is convinced that this team is in much worse shape in every way than the day that he took over. The idea that the cupboard was bare, which to me seems plainly obvious, is still very much a minority opinion.
Not to put too fine of a point on it, but it is entirely possible that the cupboard was bare...and still is. These aren't mutually exclusive. But, now I'm parsing I suppose.

Quote:
I enjoy historical "what-ifs" though. Let's say that Howson came in and announced a rebuild. The team had been suffering from four straight years of falling attendance; would a rebuild announcement have caused a hemorrhage of STHs and other hardcore fans? Would it have caused the value of players on the roster and in the farm system to plummet? Would it have damaged the team's ability to sign free agents, knowing that they were simply depth and wouldn't be around to see anything resembling contention? I say "yes, yes, and yes". In other words, it would have crippled (possibly irreparably) the franchise.
1. I don't think the hemorrhage of fans would have been as bad as it has been over the last couple years, so pick your poison. If they had been honest and discounted tickets, maybe the pain would have been less. Regardless, a statement either way is total conjecture.

2. No, it wouldn't have caused value to plummet because when you do a fire sale, no one really knows which pieces you value for your rebuild and which you don't. Completely different from holding out one specific asset (Nash). And, remember, the real thing with Nash that cost Howson was disclosing that Nash DEMANDED the trade. Other teams then knew Howson had no leverage. Again, completely different from stating you are rebuilding and then listening to whatever offers you get but not diclosing who you value going forward and who you don't.

3. The difference in ability to sign UFA's would have been entirely marginal. Do you remember who we signed that first off-season? We weren't exactly shooting for the stars. UFAs want to see a concerted effort to improving. As such, some likely would have been intrigued by a plan to rebuild over a period of, say, 3 years. Look at when Jovanovski signed as a free agent with Florida a couple years back. John Leclaire and Mark Recchi signing with the Crosby-led Pens (when they were still a struggling team), etc. Good GM's can sell veterans on a rebuild...if they can get those guys to believe in the plan and to think they'll be there when the team gets to the top of the mountain.

With all that as prologue, are we better off now when it is clear because of the failure to build a team since Day 1 of Howson's tenure that we now HAVE to rebuild? Was it easier to attract free agents this past summer when we were rebuilding and the people in place were the same as they were the prior season?

Davidson now has to be the guy to bring back fans and free agents and convince them things have changed. It is in some way a more difficult task than the one Howson had on his arrival. But, unlike any of the prior people in Jackets management, JD has previously done this task elsewhere.

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10-24-2012, 02:17 PM
  #269
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Rimer gets a shout out from John Davidson during the press conference.
I hate being right all the time!

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10-24-2012, 02:20 PM
  #270
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Wasn't Davidson supposed to be our good news? Look at how argumentative things are!

Clearly he's failed. Fire Davidson.

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10-24-2012, 02:23 PM
  #271
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I hate being right all the time!
Yeah, I threw up a little in my mouth when I saw the post you quoted. I knew it was quite possible that Rimer would have an impact, but I now know my second worst nightmare has come to pass. Rimer is here for as long as Davidson is, at least. The fact that Davidson mentioned him confirms that piece of vile news. If Davidson does a good job, I guess I will suck it up and tolerate Rimer. But if things don't improve within 5 years, I'll call from Rimer's head for helping to persuade this guy joining us... :p

As far as you being right, I don't remember anyone questioning if you were right. I can pretty much take this one up as I think I was the only one that didn't like the news.

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10-24-2012, 02:39 PM
  #272
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The past five years have been pretty much a disaster. Anybody who has to resort to saying it was better than MacLean's tenure is presenting a dubious case kind of like that an overweight person who goes from 300 to 290 saying, hey its better than it was.

I'm really glad JD is here. Hopefully he can do here what he accomplished in St L. (and more). Although lets remember it took him 7 years (I think to do so) and a very talented organization to do so. So even though he acknowledges that he is starting from a better base, it will take a few years to really begin to see his impact.

Now all we need is a season.

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10-24-2012, 02:43 PM
  #273
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Are we seriously going to be passing ultimate judgment on guys drafted since 2007 who still have an awful lot to prove? Maybe it's just me, but I've seen a hell of a lot of "future stars" come and go across all sports, and know full well that in a sport like hockey, unless the guy is a sure-fire HOFer, five or six years post-draft is usually way too early to start deciding who's made it and who hasn't.

I say this only because I've spent the better part of 20 years needling one of my friends (a longtime Atlanta Braves fan) for his 1990-94 declarations that Atlanta was run by a bunch of fools for passing on Alex Fernandez to take "some crap 3rd baseman". And that crap 3rd baseman is named Chipper Jones, and is one of the five best at his position in MLB history.

Sure, Jeff Skinner has done more in the NHL than Ryan Johansen. That doesn't mean he will this year, or for the next...I 'unno, 17 years of their careers. Sure, Logan Couture has done more than Jakub Voracek, but that doesn't mean that people remember than Couture had mono and a knee injury in his draft year and dropped because of that while Voracek was a consensus top-3 pick the entire season. We can even talk about Nikita Filatov, particularly since several of those 2008 draft picks either just finished up their rookie season or haven't even cracked the NHL full-time yet.
My questions were not loaded. I am not passing judgement on Johansen. I'm asking you if you believe Howson took the right guy more often than not.

Here's an example- MacLean took Zherdev when most observers would have taken him, but he was wrong. Most would have taken Brule and Brassard. Individually, it's hard to argue with each pick but taking a step back it's easy to see the MacLean era CBJ consistently took the wrong guy.

With the exception of Johansen in the first round, Howson has often taken the guy many observers might have selected. If you step back, is he taking the right guy more often than not?

I will drop this discussion here. This thread is about JD.

I am hopeful he is a great hire. There are those from Saint Louis who believe their success was due to their head scout, not John Davidson. I want to believe their scouting was so good because JD made sure they had the right people.

If the CBJ have had a consistent failing, it may very well be scouting and/or development.

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10-24-2012, 02:47 PM
  #274
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Yeah, I threw up a little in my mouth when I saw the post you quoted. I knew it was quite possible that Rimer would have an impact, but I now know my second worst nightmare has come to pass. Rimer is here for as long as Davidson is, at least. The fact that Davidson mentioned him confirms that piece of vile news. If Davidson does a good job, I guess I will suck it up and tolerate Rimer. But if things don't improve within 5 years, I'll call from Rimer's head for helping to persuade this guy joining us... :p

As far as you being right, I don't remember anyone questioning if you were right. I can pretty much take this one up as I think I was the only one that didn't like the news.
And, if Davidson doesn't work out, we fire Rimer and we already have his replacement in house. Win-win if you ask me.

Today really has been a mixed bag. Thrilled about Davidson (and for that matter the news about the Isles staying in New York), disappointed about what is going on with the lockout. The ASG was the one bright moment that came out of last season and these idiots are on the brink of killing it. If they don't play the ASG, I hate to say, but I'd almost rather they don't play this season at all. Let them hand us the #1 draft pick as compensation and send Bettman and Fehr to the unemployment line never to ruin another sports season.

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10-24-2012, 03:01 PM
  #275
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Today really has been a mixed bag. Thrilled about Davidson (and for that matter the news about the Isles staying in New York), disappointed about what is going on with the lockout. The ASG was the one bright moment that came out of last season and these idiots are on the brink of killing it. If they don't play the ASG, I hate to say, but I'd almost rather they don't play this season at all. Let them hand us the #1 draft pick as compensation and send Bettman and Fehr to the unemployment line never to ruin another sports season.
Ditto, ditto, ditto. I think the Brooklyn market is going to flourish with NBA and NHL teams now. This should be a net gain for the league in terms of revenue as well. Sometimes it almost seems like the powers that be know wtf they are doing...then you check in on the lockout and realize the same morons are still running the show.

Happy with the Davidson move. Now lets play some freakin hockey.

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