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2012 CBA & Re-alignment: Lockout in Effect. Thanks Gary/Donald! PART II

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Old
10-12-2012, 01:45 AM
  #151
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**** man, just fix this **** so we don't get screwed out of another year of hockey.

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10-12-2012, 03:35 AM
  #152
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I don't even know what to say.

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10-12-2012, 11:52 AM
  #153
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I was watching "That's Hockey" last night and they did a segment about how no major league sports fans have been taken for granted like NHL fans. Our loyalty, etc.

Then went on to say that is exactly why the owners forced yet another lockout and now both sides don't have any urgency. They know the fans will be back and so they continue to pull this **** because the owners and players know they can get away with it.

Basically the league abuses their fans loyalty like no other.

It's such a disgrace and I still can't believe they had the stones to do this AGAIN. I keep thinking they will realize what fools they are, how badly they are embarrassing themselves, then I read tweets that they can't even agree on wtf they talked about...

It's unreal how far this stupidity has gone.

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10-12-2012, 12:18 PM
  #154
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Yep. Most fans still don't get that they're a big part of the problem (just like in politics). When fans start boycotting owner products en masse and making some racket, and skipping games after they start again, we might get somewhere. Right now the league sees its fans as a bunch of suckers, who will come back no matter what. For die-hards they're right, but I hope this time the league loses a ton of casual fans and TV ratings suffer over the next 2 or 3 years. That's the only way these a-holes will learn. Make them lose money.

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10-12-2012, 12:30 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Yep. Most fans still don't get that they're a big part of the problem (just like in politics). When fans start boycotting owner products en masse and making some racket, and skipping games after they start again, we might get somewhere. Right now the league sees its fans as a bunch of suckers, who will come back no matter what. For die-hards they're right, but I hope this time the league loses a ton of casual fans and TV ratings suffer over the next 2 or 3 years. That's the only way these a-holes will learn. Make them lose money.
The point is not that we are the problem, it's that the league and player's union are exploiting us more than other leagues. Do you really think that if the NFL pulled this **** that the fans wouldn't come back? They'd come running back just as hard as we will to hockey. We are not the problem. We are the victims. It's not similar to politics in this sense because we don't get a vote in how the league is run. You can argue we vote with our dollars, but to do otherwise is going against our self interest (to watch hockey).

Should we boycott when hockey comes back? If we do, we are just hurting ourselves from enjoying the game we love. If we were to do anything, the time to do it is now.

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10-12-2012, 12:35 PM
  #156
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I won't get into that "hurting ourselves" nonsense. I just see that in a different light / bigger picture but I accept people disagree with me. There are a million great ways we can spend our time and have fun and be entertained. Not watching / generating revenues for the owners hurts them a lot more than it hurts us, if we'll just "be a man" about it and find other cool stuff to do for a while until the owners get the message.

As for exploitation, I'm not sure I follow that logic. All lockouts in all leagues exploit fan loyalty. It is because of fan loyalty that owners are not afraid to have work stoppages in the first place; there's no consequences for them other than losing game revenues long term. But how is it exploiting more (or less for that matter)? It's all the same behavior / same pattern.

You can say more because it's more often but that's just a function of how long a duration they set for each CBA. If they made 15 year agreements, we'd get abused every 15 years....

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10-12-2012, 12:52 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I won't get into that "hurting ourselves" nonsense. I just see that in a different light / bigger picture but I accept people disagree with me. There are a million great ways we can spend our time and have fun and be entertained. Not watching / generating revenues for the owners hurts them a lot more than it hurts us, if we'll just "be a man" about it and find other cool stuff to do for a while until the owners get the message.

As for exploitation, I'm not sure I follow that logic. All lockouts in all leagues exploit fan loyalty. It is because of fan loyalty that owners are not afraid to have work stoppages in the first place; there's no consequences for them other than losing game revenues long term. But how is it exploiting more (or less for that matter)? It's all the same behavior / same pattern.

You can say more because it's more often but that's just a function of how long a duration they set for each CBA. If they made 15 year agreements, we'd get abused every 15 years....
I'm not sure what any of this means to be honest. Hockey has had more lockouts than any other sport. There is a sense that the owners take fans for granted in the NHL more than other leagues. That's what Jiggy said and it makes sense. Your response is "Yep. A lot of this is the fan's fault". I call ******** on that claim. It's not our fault and that was my point.

Also, I'm not one to truly let this lockout affect my happiness or satisfaction with life. Actually, it will likely lead to me being more productive in other areas. That said, I am a hockey fan and not a sports fan. I don't want to replace my time watching the NHL with any other sporting past time. So for me, by purposely not watching the Pens play when hockey is back does nothing positive to end this situation in the future. If we all did it then sure it would matter but try telling thousands of NHL crazed fans that after X months of not watching hockey they now should boycott it to send a message to the league in 7 years.

You are a moderator on a Pittsburgh Penguins fan message board telling other hockey obsessed fans to be a man and stop watching. That just seems odd to me. The average fan doesn't join this board and the average fan sure as hell isn't a moderator on this board. I guess what I'm getting at is I just don't believe that you would be willing to stop watching the Penguins when the season starts when you (I did this as well) spent hours of your summer clicking refresh to see if the Penguins signed Parise or Suter.

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Old
10-12-2012, 03:53 PM
  #158
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As fans you keep watching and going to games, but re-frame yourselves from spending on all the food, gear, and trinkets for a season and watch them squirm when the bottom line gets smaller.

Most of us already have sufficient amounts of this stuff already and I'll do my part in not purchasing anything with a NHL affiliation other than tickets to see a game, but really....I'm fine with the tv. watching the games.

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10-12-2012, 04:08 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Yep. Most fans still don't get that they're a big part of the problem (just like in politics). When fans start boycotting owner products en masse and making some racket, and skipping games after they start again, we might get somewhere. Right now the league sees its fans as a bunch of suckers, who will come back no matter what. For die-hards they're right, but I hope this time the league loses a ton of casual fans and TV ratings suffer over the next 2 or 3 years. That's the only way these a-holes will learn. Make them lose money.
I can't boycott because I don't have cable anymore to give them TV ratings, I don't fill out radio ratings, I generally don't buy myself memorabilia or apparel, and I rarely go to games.

As for products I usually buy everything used (except food, hygiene products, socks, and underwear)

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10-12-2012, 05:28 PM
  #160
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I've come to the conclusion the players will give in after that November supposed deadline. Under Fehr they are playing hardball and the waiting game to see if the voting majority of the owners cave and they get some free cash out of it.

Once that deadline passes the PA will play ball and get it done.
Season starts sometime in December or late November. Maybe this is the booze talking...

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Old
10-13-2012, 09:14 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I'm not sure what any of this means to be honest. Hockey has had more lockouts than any other sport. There is a sense that the owners take fans for granted in the NHL more than other leagues. That's what Jiggy said and it makes sense. Your response is "Yep. A lot of this is the fan's fault". I call ******** on that claim. It's not our fault and that was my point.

Also, I'm not one to truly let this lockout affect my happiness or satisfaction with life. Actually, it will likely lead to me being more productive in other areas. That said, I am a hockey fan and not a sports fan. I don't want to replace my time watching the NHL with any other sporting past time. So for me, by purposely not watching the Pens play when hockey is back does nothing positive to end this situation in the future. If we all did it then sure it would matter but try telling thousands of NHL crazed fans that after X months of not watching hockey they now should boycott it to send a message to the league in 7 years.

You are a moderator on a Pittsburgh Penguins fan message board telling other hockey obsessed fans to be a man and stop watching. That just seems odd to me. The average fan doesn't join this board and the average fan sure as hell isn't a moderator on this board. I guess what I'm getting at is I just don't believe that you would be willing to stop watching the Penguins when the season starts when you (I did this as well) spent hours of your summer clicking refresh to see if the Penguins signed Parise or Suter.
Hockey is just in my blood. Has been since I was a kid. The NHL is the reason I started playing hockey and while the sport has done physical damage to my body (especially my back ), it has given me way more than it has taken from me. I was the kid who didn't want to leave the ice, sport court, etc after practice. I would take the bus to Manchester, stick and skates in hand, to skate agt. all of the older kids on Lake Elizabeth in the Winter. I would be on that ice until I lost feeling in my feet.

I would sneak a little radio into my room at night to listen to the Pens. Go to the library each chance I got so I could read every book and magazine they had on the NHL. I would get the PG after every game on my way to school and read Tom McMillian's breakdowns of the game.

I used to call the damn Donnelly Directory "up to the minute sports line" to get recorded updates on the team.

This isn't something I can turn off. I already admitted I will watch the first game, no matter how long their stupidity lasts. I just think it is a total disgrace they use my love for the league, this sport, to line their pockets further. I think the players are being fools now, but I've made no bones about how I feel the owners are at fault here.

I keep asking myself this question: under Bettman this league has had a strike and three lockouts... There has never been labor peace under his watch. He uses lockouts as a form of intimidation to get what he wants from the players, yet he and the league after all of these years still claim a majority of teams are losing money. When will he get it right? How many more lockouts will he need?

If he has had all of these years to fix this league, but supposedly most teams are still losing money and now the league has completely embarrassed itself once again because of his lack of foresight, why does Bettman still have a job?

Seriously? Can't say it is because he is making owners money... Most of them claim they are bleeding red... Can't be because of how he has forged a great reputation for the league. It's still a joke in most of the US and now will be looked down upon even more after he decided to have another lockout. I haven't seen one article defending this lockout... Not one.


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10-13-2012, 02:14 PM
  #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Hockey is just in my blood. Has been since I was a kid. The NHL is the reason I started playing hockey and while the sport has done physical damage to my body (especially my back ), it has given me way more than it has taken from me. I was the kid who didn't want to leave the ice, sport court, etc after practice. I would take the bus to Manchester, stick and skates in hand, to skate agt. all of the older kids on Lake Elizabeth in the Winter. I would be on that ice until I lost feeling in my feet.

I would sneak a little radio into my room at night to listen to the Pens. Go to the library each chance I got so I could read every book and magazine they had on the NHL. I would get the PG after every game on my way to school and read Tom McMillian's breakdowns of the game.

I used to call the damn Donnelly Directory "up to the minute sports line" to get recorded updates on the team.

This isn't something I can turn off. I already admitted I will watch the first game, no matter how long their stupidity lasts. I just think it is a total disgrace they use my love for the league, this sport, to line their pockets further. I think the players are being fools now, but I've made no bones about how I feel the owners are at fault here.

I keep asking myself this question: under Bettman this league has had a strike and three lockouts... There has never been labor peace under his watch. He uses lockouts as a form of intimidation to get what he wants from the players, yet he and the league after all of these years still claim a majority of teams are losing money. When will he get it right? How many more lockouts will he need?

If he has had all of these years to fix this league, but supposedly most teams are still losing money and now the league has completely embarrassed itself once again because of his lack of foresight, why does Bettman still have a job?

Seriously? Can't say it is because he is making owners money... Most of them claim they are bleeding red... Can't be because of how he has forged a great reputation for the league. It's still a joke in most of the US and now will be looked down upon even more after he decided to have another lockout. I haven't seen one article defending this lockout... Not one.
Dude that must have been an epic long bus ride from the Northside to Rostraver....

Goodenow and Fehr are possibly the two most militant union heads in the history of sports. It's not all on Bettmen. Just saying.

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Old
10-13-2012, 02:35 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Yep. Most fans still don't get that they're a big part of the problem (just like in politics). When fans start boycotting owner products en masse and making some racket, and skipping games after they start again, we might get somewhere. Right now the league sees its fans as a bunch of suckers, who will come back no matter what. For die-hards they're right, but I hope this time the league loses a ton of casual fans and TV ratings suffer over the next 2 or 3 years. That's the only way these a-holes will learn. Make them lose money.
So, then how do we make the players feel pressure?

There are no guarantees in life... except a NHL player's salary.

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10-13-2012, 02:59 PM
  #164
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Jiggy you keep referring to Bettman as though he isn't the figurehead of the owners. Lets not act like he's the problem...the owners are the ones calling the shots. He's a mouthpiece.

Also, under Bettman one of those lockouts got us a salary cap. Are you against that

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10-13-2012, 04:10 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Florentino Ariza View Post
Jiggy you keep referring to Bettman as though he isn't the figurehead of the owners. Lets not act like he's the problem...the owners are the ones calling the shots. He's a mouthpiece.

Also, under Bettman one of those lockouts got us a salary cap. Are you against that
I used to believe he was just a puppet as well, not because he looks like one though...

However, the more I have read and seen over the last several years proved me wrong. He has a very heavy influence on what goes on and is very instrumental in the writing of the CBA.

There is simply no way I can refer to him as a puppet now that I know how much control he actually does have.


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10-13-2012, 04:11 PM
  #166
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Unlike the last lockout I really haven't cared that much & I don't know why. It's like I've become completely immune to this crap.

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10-13-2012, 04:24 PM
  #167
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Unlike the last lockout I really haven't cared that much & I don't know why. It's like I've become completely immune to this crap.
There is a limit to how much you can invest yourself emotionally (and financially, for that matter) into a gaggle of incompetent, dishonest, greedy and seemingly disinterested individuals.

It's difficult to care about those who have made it blatantly clear that they care nothing at all about you. You know... one of the individuals that makes their entire career possible.

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10-13-2012, 05:49 PM
  #168
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There is a limit to how much you can invest yourself emotionally (and financially, for that matter) into a gaggle of incompetent, dishonest, greedy and seemingly disinterested individuals.

It's difficult to care about those who have made it blatantly clear that they care nothing at all about you. You know... one of the individuals that makes their entire career possible.
I've definitely become a lot more jaded with all major sports in this town over the last couple of years. So many injuries to the Steelers and Penguins, the losing in the postseason, this lockout, the Pirates...

I haven't been able to bring myself to care as much about sports as I did in the past. Don't get me wrong though because I still love watching them and following them. It's just that I can't get so emotionally involved anymore.

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10-13-2012, 06:36 PM
  #169
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With all the random jibber jabber in here, I would like to take a moment to appreciate the things that are really important in life. We all love our hockey, but some things are just bigger than all of this CBA nonsense.





http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit.../news/?a=68651

carry on

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10-14-2012, 06:43 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I used to believe he was just a puppet as well, not because he looks like one though...

However, the more I have read and seen over the last several years proved me wrong. He has a very heavy influence on what goes on and is very instrumental in the writing of the CBA.

There is simply no way I can refer to him as a puppet now that I know how much control he actually does have.
I agree. While he does not have the final say, he for sure is one of the people coming up with the formulas and math and proposals. They pay him way too much to be a spokesperson and nothing more. If I had to guess I would say there are about 8-10 owners who have the most power, then Gary, then the rest of the owners... if you look at it individually. IOW if Gary suggests something that the top owners like and the bottom owners don't, they'll do what Gary suggests.

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10-14-2012, 08:07 PM
  #171
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If only Bettman was Nostradamus...

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10-15-2012, 09:38 AM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I agree. While he does not have the final say, he for sure is one of the people coming up with the formulas and math and proposals. They pay him way too much to be a spokesperson and nothing more. If I had to guess I would say there are about 8-10 owners who have the most power, then Gary, then the rest of the owners... if you look at it individually. IOW if Gary suggests something that the top owners like and the bottom owners don't, they'll do what Gary suggests.
I have been touching on this in the business forum, because there are still people who think he is simply the owner's puppet, but he is extremely powerful.

At one time I thought Uncle Gary was a figurehead, but he has become so powerful, that some suggest he is the most powerful man in the NHL.

Getting the 3/4 rule changed after he lost the majority vote in '95, was a huge coup. Now he has the right to veto any proposal he doesn't like, if he only has 8 votes in his favor. This essentially means that 3/4 of the owners have no voice.

It is very similar to have him fired as well... basically he needs to be caught with a bunch of hookers and coke before he can be fired.

Jonathon Gatehouse just spent four years researching and writing a book on Bettman. He spoke to a litany of people who work under and with Bettman. Here is what he said about who is responsible for this lockout:

Quote:
Q: If it goes ahead, this will be the third lockout under Bettman’s watch. How much of the responsibility for these can be placed on his slender shoulders.

A: Ultimately I think he bears all the responsibility. He’s the one who chooses the strategy, he’s the one who crafts the strategy, and if the strategy is to lock out the players in order to force a deal or foist a deal upon them, then that’s Bettman’s choice, especially this time around.
http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...s-love-to-hate

Bettman had the PA by the balls in the Summer of '05, the union was broken and BG was forced by the PA to accept a cap. Bettman ignored implementing meaningful revenue sharing, which BG and many members of the media kept insisting was needed WITH player cost control.

Bettman now wants to fix his mistakes using the only bargaining chip he knows how - a lockout.

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10-15-2012, 01:37 PM
  #173
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I forgot what hockey is.

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10-15-2012, 01:44 PM
  #174
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I have been touching on this in the business forum, because there are still people who think he is simply the owner's puppet, but he is extremely powerful.

At one time I thought Uncle Gary was a figurehead, but he has become so powerful, that some suggest he is the most powerful man in the NHL.

Getting the 3/4 rule changed after he lost the majority vote in '95, was a huge coup. Now he has the right to veto any proposal he doesn't like, if he only has 8 votes in his favor. This essentially means that 3/4 of the owners have no voice.

It is very similar to have him fired as well... basically he needs to be caught with a bunch of hookers and coke before he can be fired.

Jonathon Gatehouse just spent four years researching and writing a book on Bettman. He spoke to a litany of people who work under and with Bettman. Here is what he said about who is responsible for this lockout:



http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...s-love-to-hate

Bettman had the PA by the balls in the Summer of '05, the union was broken and BG was forced by the PA to accept a cap. Bettman ignored implementing meaningful revenue sharing, which BG and many members of the media kept insisting was needed WITH player cost control.

Bettman now wants to fix his mistakes using the only bargaining chip he knows how - a lockout.
Wow... sounds even worse than what I was envisioning. Interesting there's a book on the guy although the author doesn't have big credentials. Basically a beat writer for a Canadian tabloid AFAICT. Wonder how well documented his book is / if his quotes are attributed, etc. A lot of Canadian journalism is really crappy. They don't have the same standards for fact-checking etc as even our weak / lame / dead media down here.


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10-15-2012, 03:17 PM
  #175
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Wow... sounds even worse than what I was envisioning. Interesting there's a book on the guy although the author doesn't have big credentials. Basically a beat writer for a Canadian tabloid AFAICT. Wonder how well documented his book is / if his quotes are attributed, etc. A lot of Canadian journalism is really crappy. They don't have the same standards for fact-checking etc as even our weak / lame / dead media down here.
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/art...isher=carillon

Quote:
This is a crisply written, carefully researched and thought-provoking biography about a sports icon neither beloved nor athletic but who's arguably the most powerful figure pro hockey has ever known.
A lot of what is in the book (that I have read) jives with things I have read from other media members, heard in radio interviews, etc.

And he would be pretty stupid to make stuff up about an ego driven, little man who is a former lawyer.

This is the only commissioner in modern sports history to lose an entire season to a labor dispute,.. Then he has the stones to threaten to do it again eight yrs later.

Boggles my mind why ppl wonder why most hockey fans detest him. Someone on here asked the other day how can we not like Bettman when he saved the Pens?

First of all, any decent commissioner with half a brain would have been able to look at the situation in Pgh and see it was a very sustainable market with a new arena, but Baldwin put them in a mound of debt and they had an atrocious arena deal because of his bridge loan used to buy the team.

Who did he really stop from buying the Pens and moving them?

Balsille? Right... Because the most powerful org in the league was going to let him move the team to within an hour of their territorial rights. Please.

Delbaggio? Mario stopped the sale when they won the Crosby sweepstakes. Ironically, this guy slipped through Bettman's ramped up background checks he promised to implement after John Spano took Uncle Gary behind the woodshed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Spano

Seriously, how does Delbaggio become an owner in Nashville after the Spano incident? But he did.

The Las Vegas arena deal fell through and that was just a diversion, like KC. So I'm not exactly sure how I'm suppose to feel so indebted to Bettman. Lemieux is the one who bought the team, played poker and won.

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