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11-03-2012, 05:55 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
I completely disagree. Martin, Michalek, Orpik, Letang...these guys were all considered number 1 D-men until we put this asinine system in place. I'm sorry but I'm not afraid to call Bylsma out for his short comings & zone defense is one of them. I know it's still popular to go "It was all Paul Martin. Even when he was in the press box" but seeing what we do compared to what the better defensive team do you can see we are constantly chasing players out of position instead of sticking to their zone. There is no reason we should have Defense men chasing guys to the point & we did on a consistent basis last year.
The only one of that bunch really that was a number 1 defenseman ever was Martin, and that was in a very strict trapping system, unlike our defensive system. Letang is still coming into his own as a top pairing defenseman. Michalek played a trap too in Phoenix. Orpik was never a number 1 defenseman, and he is undoubtedly on the downswing of his career, and has been for a year or two.

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11-03-2012, 06:45 PM
  #652
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I agree that D was a problem, but I'm not so sure we should automatically blame Dan. If he was running some kind of man-to-man, then yeah I'd be on board. I've never heard, seen or played that ever. But if he's teaching the basic zone and guys are blatantly ignoring it (D chasing guys to the blue line, wingers below the faceoff dots, etc.) then that's on the players.

Regardless, The whole team needs to be more disciplined in the d zone. Too many breakdowns last year.
Regardless of whose fault it was there was way too much chasing players out of position. I don't think the remedy for it is more chasing.

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11-03-2012, 07:24 PM
  #653
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Regardless of whose fault it was there was way too much chasing players out of position. I don't think the remedy for it is more chasing.
I don't think the chasing was as much of a problem as the lack of physicality. You can't chase a guy down and then love tap him when you get there. You can't just follow a guy around the ice either. When you get him, you have to take him out of the play. That's what our defense lacks. Just ridiculously soft in the top of it, especially now considering that Orpik is sort of the wrong side of 30.

As I've said before, luckily we have big defensemen coming who are very strong skaters, who are physically imposing, and can really move the puck from the back end. That's what this system needs.

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11-03-2012, 07:24 PM
  #654
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Add to that, WBS plays a defensive scheme similar to the one the Pens do, if not exactly the same, and it is notoriously hard to learn. A big reason why Dumoulin is probably looking pretty good in it is that BC played a very similar style the whole time he was there...right from Dumoulin's mouth actually.
Well it didn't seem to help Sneep.

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11-03-2012, 07:27 PM
  #655
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Well it didn't seem to help Sneep.
Sneep sucks. That's why.

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11-03-2012, 08:09 PM
  #656
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I can tell you right now that if we lose Bortuzzo to waivers, I'll be really pissed off.

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11-03-2012, 08:25 PM
  #657
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Last game, everyone he hit blew up. I was highly impressed with his strength.

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11-03-2012, 08:47 PM
  #658
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
I can tell you right now that if we lose Bortuzzo to waivers, I'll be really pissed off.
Many teams have valuable ''prospects'' that will be going through waivers, so my bet is that there shall be a non written rule that noone gets claimed.

Don't claim mine if you dont want me to claim yours. Something like that.

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11-03-2012, 09:53 PM
  #659
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Sneep sucks. That's why.

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11-03-2012, 11:00 PM
  #660
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I don't see Bort going on waivers.

Martin, Letang, Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland, Strait, Bortuzzo and Lovejoy on the NHL roster. If they wanna keep 14 forwards, we'll waive Lovejoy.

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11-04-2012, 06:37 AM
  #661
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I don't see Bort going on waivers.

Martin, Letang, Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland, Strait, Bortuzzo and Lovejoy on the NHL roster. If they wanna keep 14 forwards, we'll waive Lovejoy.
I have a feeling once the lockout ends that there still will be a trade to thin the waiver pool. I do agree if anyone is waived it'd be, Lovejoy.

Man, do we really keep MacIntyer on the roster and loose a possible future player over him?

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Old
11-04-2012, 08:21 AM
  #662
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Sneep sucks. That's why.
Well we know that now but we obviously didn't think that when we drafted him in the second round.

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11-04-2012, 08:33 AM
  #663
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Well we know that now but we obviously didn't think that when we drafted him in the second round.
Not sure the point you're trying to make.

Sneep just never progressed. It happens sometimes. He was a forward for most of his hockey career, if I remember correctly. He did fine at BC, and he'll probably do fine in the AHL. He's now 7th or 8th on the depth chart here though. He should buy a house in WB and set down some roots.

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11-04-2012, 08:42 AM
  #664
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if there's a black market feed for today's game I'd appreciate a link via DM.

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11-04-2012, 08:44 AM
  #665
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Sneep has always been a defenseman IIRC, at least he always was in college. Looked like a promising pick on paper: he had size, skills and apparently was pretty (book-) smart. But like you said, he never really put it together, doesn't stand out at any one thing, and now looks like a waste of a 32nd overall pick. Probably the worst draft choice in Shero's tenure (considering he managed to dump Esposito in a trade before his value hit rock bottom).

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11-04-2012, 08:53 AM
  #666
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Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
Sneep has always been a defenseman IIRC, at least he always was in college. Looked like a promising pick on paper: he had size, skills and apparently was pretty (book-) smart. But like you said, he never really put it together, doesn't stand out at any one thing, and now looks like a waste of a 32nd overall pick. Probably the worst draft choice in Shero's tenure (considering he managed to dump Esposito in a trade before his value hit rock bottom).
In college he was, but if I remember right, before he got to BC, he only played defense for a year.

At the time, it wasn't a bad pick. Lot's of upside to him, and a year removed from the "New NHL," a 6'4 defensemen with puck moving ability and good skating was something you wanted to invest in. What are you going to do?

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if there's a black market feed for today's game I'd appreciate a link via DM.
Ditto

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11-04-2012, 08:58 AM
  #667
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Originally Posted by Burgs View Post
Sneep has always been a defenseman IIRC, at least he always was in college. Looked like a promising pick on paper: he had size, skills and apparently was pretty (book-) smart. But like you said, he never really put it together, doesn't stand out at any one thing, and now looks like a waste of a 32nd overall pick. Probably the worst draft choice in Shero's tenure (considering he managed to dump Esposito in a trade before his value hit rock bottom).
Sneep was a Craig Patrick draftee

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11-04-2012, 09:21 AM
  #668
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Originally Posted by stefanh View Post
Sneep was a Craig Patrick draftee
2006 was the first year of Shero...although, he was still using the scouting staff that was in place.

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Old
11-04-2012, 09:21 AM
  #669
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Originally Posted by stefanh View Post
Sneep was a Craig Patrick draftee
No he wasn't. The 2006 draft with Staal/Sneep/Strait was Shero's first as Pens GM.

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11-04-2012, 09:33 AM
  #670
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If Keven Veilleux turns out to be a Michael Rupp type player, I'll take it at this point.

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Old
11-04-2012, 09:49 AM
  #671
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No he wasn't. The 2006 draft with Staal/Sneep/Strait was Shero's first as Pens GM.
hasn't it been pretty well documented that his only real input in that first draft was Staal? The rest was mostly left up to the scouting staff.

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11-04-2012, 10:54 AM
  #672
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Not sure the point you're trying to make.

Sneep just never progressed. It happens sometimes. He was a forward for most of his hockey career, if I remember correctly. He did fine at BC, and he'll probably do fine in the AHL. He's now 7th or 8th on the depth chart here though. He should buy a house in WB and set down some roots.
My point is that just because he knows the system doesn't mean he will be able to play it well. Most of these guys have gone through enough prospect camps and training camps that they should be familiar with the system by now. Morrow has been through two, he should have the defensive assignments down by now. I just haven't seen what all the hype has been about so far with Morrow. Ya, he's got an NHL shot, but he hasn't shown much else yet. He has all the tools but he still has some in his bag that he's not quite sure how to use. I'm just saying that going to BC doesn't really give anyone a leg up. Dumuolin {sp} looks like the real deal to me. I'd rather have an all around good D-man with size like him than a one dimentional guy like Morrow.

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11-04-2012, 10:56 AM
  #673
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hasn't it been pretty well documented that his only real input in that first draft was Staal? The rest was mostly left up to the scouting staff.
I don't believe that for one minute. And where was this documentation, HF?

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11-04-2012, 11:20 AM
  #674
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My point is that just because he knows the system doesn't mean he will be able to play it well. Most of these guys have gone through enough prospect camps and training camps that they should be familiar with the system by now. Morrow has been through two, he should have the defensive assignments down by now. I just haven't seen what all the hype has been about so far with Morrow. Ya, he's got an NHL shot, but he hasn't shown much else yet. He has all the tools but he still has some in his bag that he's not quite sure how to use. I'm just saying that going to BC doesn't really give anyone a leg up. Dumuolin {sp} looks like the real deal to me. I'd rather have an all around good D-man with size like him than a one dimentional guy like Morrow.
It's WAY too early to pass judgement on Morrow. He's 19 years old, and is 1 year removed from being drafted, is playing in a league that is a pretty large step up from what he played last season (which may even be more than a step higher due to the fact that the AHL is souped up right now), and is learning a brand new system. A prospect camp or two is not going to make a guy an expert on a system that is as intricate as one that the Pens play.

Dumoulin is 21, and has had 3 years of college hockey to bulk up. Dumoulin is a man. He's physically mature. Morrow is not. Playing 3 years at BC under a very similar system to what we play will help Dumoulin. You can bring up Sneep and how he hasn't been as good as Dumoulin coming from the same system, but Dumoulin is a vastly better hockey player.

I think Morrow will be just fine after he gets some pro experience under his belt. I can agree that defensively he hasn't looked great, but what he's lacking can be coached. From what I've seen, a lot of it is positional.

I really like both players, but I don't think one should be compared to the other, as one is clearly ahead in terms of development right now.

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Old
11-04-2012, 11:20 AM
  #675
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I don't believe that for one minute. And where was this documentation, HF?
ok, documented was a bad word to use. I think I've heard that said before

I meant that to be more of a question.

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