theres only 2 things you can be if you dont think Forsberg deserves some credit.
Youre either: A) Stupid, or B) a blind homer
No one. NO ONE! Is denying Forsberg from credit. You just have to understand that if you are not on par with Jagr does NOT mean that you are not given credit.
Forsberg was great. He was considered one of the best players in a game for a moment. He won the Hart and Art. Not many players do that.
Now, Jagr was on a different level. These two players are not comparable. Jagr is the superior talent, any way you slice the cake. Don't you think so?
Yeah, one thing is that Forsberg was great player, but there is a bunch of elite players who put together similar career... There is not more than 9 forwards (probably less) who were better than Jagr.
Forsberg is more in Clarke, Stastny, Trottier, Hawerchuk category and noobody is arguing them for TOP10 forward. Jagr is in very elite group of players.
Is possible that Forsberg could be one of them? Yes, sure. But I can't give him credit for games which he didn't play.
Even if Jagr was a little bit worse (I don't believe he was), I could put him on my team's roster two times in two games. Forsberg could play only in one game of mentioned two. Even half of a player of Forsberg caliber in a game is better than Forsberg on IR.
Yeah, one thing is that Forsberg was great player, but there is a bunch of elite players who put together similar career... There is not more than 9 forwards (probably less) who were better than Jagr.
Forsberg is more in Clarke, Stastny, Trottier, Hawerchuk category and noobody is arguing them for TOP10 forward. Jagr is in very elite group of players.
.
Putting Forsberg in with those players is overrating him, Clarke and Trottier are considered better then Yzerman and Sackic.
Putting Forsberg in with those players is overrating him, Clarke and Trottier are considered better then Yzerman and Sackic.
Not sure about that.
Trottier and Clarke probably have better peaks outside Yzerman and Sakic's one huge year each, but they make up a ton of ground with longevity.
Trottier and Clarke came up during a generation of star players that seemed to be done as top offensive players by 30ish.
Depending on how you value peak vs. consistency etc. you could rank them in almost any order.
Forsberg has the issue that his peak is high but his peak and career is very short due to injuries. So he is probably behind these guys for most people.
EDIT: Also just as an aside. Bryan Trottier was awesome. Forsberg is like Trottier-lite.
Last edited by BraveCanadian: 10-01-2012 at 09:40 AM.
Pretty similar in that they were both great playmakers who dominated on the boards and controlled the play. Still, we're talking about a guy who is one of the greatest forwards of his generation vs one of the greatest forwards of all time. Definitely Jagr.
Jagr has fifteen seasons scoring 30+ goals. Forsberg has two.
Dont give more credit then is due, he didnt have two 30+ goal seasons. He hit thirty dead on twice and that was it
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syrinx
There is no good reason, on a hockey board where people are supposed to know the sport, for Jaromir Jagr not to have 100% of the vote. And it's not even close.
Agreed, I'm in the group who finds Forsberg very overrated on HF, but I'm also not a huge Jagr fan overall. But the people who voted Foppa need to give their head a shake big time
Trottier and Clarke probably have better peaks outside Yzerman and Sakic's one huge year each, but they make up a ton of ground with longevity.
Trottier and Clarke came up during a generation of star players that seemed to be done as top offensive players by 30ish.
Depending on how you value peak vs. consistency etc. you could rank them in almost any order.
Forsberg has the issue that his peak is high but his peak and career is very short due to injuries. So he is probably behind these guys for most people.
EDIT: Also just as an aside. Bryan Trottier was awesome. Forsberg is like Trottier-lite.
If Forsberg was a "lite" version of anyone, that players must be the most dominant player ever, considering Forsberg skated around whole teams from time to time to time
If Forsberg was a "lite" version of anyone, that players must be the most dominant player ever, considering Forsberg skated around whole teams from time to time to time
Go and look on history board, there is quite recent topic about Trottier vs. Forsberg. Conclusion? Trottier is slightly but clearly better.. And yes, Forsberg is lite version of Trottier due to fact Trottier can match Forsberg's achievments three times in average. SCs, goals..from the top of my head.
Overratedness of Forsberg is career high. Hope this will stop soon....
Forsberg was the best player in a world just for a while, exactly one season is arguable and even that season is really weak. Winning Art Ross agains such greats like Naslund, Hejduk, Demitra, Bertuzzi or Murray is really uncomparable to Jagr's late 90s competition. He was good during playoffs, unfortunately, he neither led his teams to glory nor won Conn Smythe Trophy and every his playoff without Sakic was sooner exit than expected. Sakic constantly outscored him , even during Forsberg's very best years i.e. 2003. Not to mention fact, that Forsberg faced easier competition, because opposite team's #1 target was always Sakic. And not every team was Detroit which was build to face Sakic/Forsberg combo (C's: Yzerman, Fedorov, Larionov, Primeau, Draper etc.)
If Forsberg was a "lite" version of anyone, that players must be the most dominant player ever, considering Forsberg skated around whole teams from time to time to time
If Forsberg was a "lite" version of anyone, that players must be the most dominant player ever, considering Forsberg skated around whole teams from time to time to time
Kovalev could skate around whole teams from time to time too and with a lot more authority and skill than Forsberg did.
That doesn't mean that I'm going to start a poll over who was better, Kovalev or Jagr though
And just for the record, Jagr could not only skate around whole teams, he could also skate THROUGH whole teams from time to time.
On another note, it really saddens me to see so many people that do not know (are so uninformed) just how good Trottier was
Last edited by Rhiessan71: 10-01-2012 at 10:54 AM.
So he is equal or better than Howe/Hull/Richard? Doesn't sound right to me.
How many years did Howe play to put up his point totals? He's not the juggernaut everyone wants to make him out to be. Yes, sometimes, aside from Mario and Wayne, you can have modern day era players in the convo for top 5 forwards.
Messier reminds me of a Howe type, and well tbh, I'd take Jags over Messier.
How many years did Howe play to put up his point totals? He's not the juggernaut everyone wants to make him out to be. Yes, sometimes, aside from Mario and Wayne, you can have modern day era players in the convo for top 5 forwards.
He was playing in a league with less game/season and much less goal by games for a long times.
He won artRoss by marging that only surpassed by Gretzky himself IIRC.
If Forsberg was a "lite" version of anyone, that players must be the most dominant player ever, considering Forsberg skated around whole teams from time to time to time
If he could skate around whole teams with eyes closed, why didn't he put up more than 30g in his career? Or why did he only win Art Ross once in his career against 2nd place Markus Naslund in career yr while Lemieux injured and Jagr playing for crap system?
Jagr was a bigger speciemen than Forsberg too. Look at his tree trunk legs. You can't get the puck off of him.
He was the better physical player and actually conditioned himself well enough to stay healthy his whole career.
How many years did Howe play to put up his point totals? He's not the juggernaut everyone wants to make him out to be.
You can't be serious. Howe was top 5 in scoring in the NHL for two decades straight! He wasn't a middle of the pack compiler by any stretch of the imagination.
20 years! In. a. row.
Quote:
Messier reminds me of a Howe type, and well tbh, I'd take Jags over Messier.
Jagr/Messier is debatable depending on team need. Jagr is better offensively - Messier at practically everything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MadLuke
He was playing in a league with less game/season and much less goal by games for a long times.
He won artRoss by marging that only surpassed by Gretzky himself IIRC.
Thank you.
Last edited by BraveCanadian: 10-01-2012 at 02:30 PM.
As my post in the thread says, Trottier was more effective at every aspect of the game.
Forsberg was a great player but he is definitely overrated around here.
The "History of hockey"-board... full of people swearing that they lived in the 30s and watched Eddie Shore play, the "best defensmen except Orr"... and thats like sayiing that the Nokia 3310 is better than iPhone 5. So no, they dont help me that much.
Yes Trottier scored 40+ a few times, but that was when people scored goals like it was nothing.
The "History of hockey"-board... full of people swearing that they lived in the 30s and watched Eddie Shore play, the "best defensmen except Orr"... and thats like sayiing that the Nokia 3310 is better than iPhone 5. So no, they dont help me that much.
Yes Trottier scored 40+ a few times, but that was when people scored goals like it was nothing.
What an absolutely ignorant post. I guess we should just disregard history then?
The answer to the poll is Jagr. There is no question about it. Beyond what the stats show, anyone who watched the two players in their primes can see the clear difference. It blows my mind that people are actually voting Forsberg.
The "History of hockey"-board... full of people swearing that they lived in the 30s and watched Eddie Shore play, the "best defensmen except Orr"... and thats like sayiing that the Nokia 3310 is better than iPhone 5. So no, they dont help me that much.
1) Research, have you heard of it?
2) Human beings don't evolve like hardware. Horrible analogy. We are still almost exactly the same as we were 100ish years ago when hockey started outside of better nutrition making the average person bigger in developed countries. Even that isn't really evolution.
Any other advances like nutrition, training methods, medical advances and the player pay raises to afford them would be just as available to a theoretical Eddie Shore today as they are to Sidney Crosby.
Quote:
Yes Trottier scored 40+ a few times, but that was when people scored goals like it was nothing.
5 times 40+, including a 50 goal season as well.
Forsberg hit exactly 30 twice. Somewhat due to a lack of finishing and somewhat due to injuries.
Yes, Trottier played in a higher scoring era. If you want to look at goals adjusted for goals per game Trottier checks in with a career high of 41 goals and Forsberg 34. Trottier has 4 seasons better than Forsberg's best. So much for that theory.
Trottier also placed top 10 in goals 3 times. Forsberg 0.
This is well off topic now so I won't get into it any further.
Forsberg was compared to Lindros more (probably due to the trade, bit it is what it is). I'd pick Lindros back then too, but at least that one is debatable. Jags and Foppa isn't.
Forsberg is like Trottier-lite.
