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Old
10-01-2012, 07:27 AM
  #26
Hurt
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Originally Posted by LeafErikson View Post
Fingers crossed for the Burke era picks. I feel like there's a distinct improvement in the quality of the picks. A lot of depth on defense. You also have to remember how few times the Leafs picked top five, or even top ten in that time frame. A lot of those picks start in the bottom third of the first round, and later. No excuse for the traded picks.
The difference with the Burke era has been that it feels like (none of us knows for sure) that there is more quality picks being made in the later rounds. All the players are being allowed to develop at their own pace, no one is being rushed.

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10-01-2012, 07:58 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
This team is supposedly one of the most prestigious teams in all of major North American sports and I can guaranty you we have the worst drafting record.
Might be time to lay off the sauce.

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10-01-2012, 08:48 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
The difference with the Burke era has been that it feels like (none of us knows for sure) that there is more quality picks being made in the later rounds. All the players are being allowed to develop at their own pace, no one is being rushed.
The one thing i've liked about Burke's drafts is he has targeted mainly Canadian kids with grit and character. The previous regimes seemed to always draft these longshot Russians, Slovaks and Czechs, it never made much sense to me. After the first few rounds the talent level pretty much evens out, so I like the idea of drafting local kids at that point. If you have the choice between a kid from Mississauga or a kid from Zvolen at the same level, it should be a no-brainer.

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10-01-2012, 08:56 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
Just for fun, I've put together the best 20-man roster possible of players drafted only by the Leafs between 1998 and 2008:

Kulemin - Steen - Antropov
Stalberg - Wellwood - Tlusty
Ponikarovski - Boyes - Frattin
Mitchell - Stajan - Hayes

Gunnarsson - White
Colaiacovo - Schenn
Stralman - Holzer

Rask
Reimer

Looking at this roster shows just how bad the Leafs have been at the draft in recent history (obviously too early to tell what Burke's picks will turn out to be). Don't get me wrong, there is some talent in that line up, but it is completely void of star power. It seems that most teams have had no trouble drafting stars, even in the mid to late rounds. The Leafs first round picks don't even work out for them, and with the amount of picks they have made in this time span you would think they would have at least lucked out with a diamond in the rough.
Okay, you now have to add the top 3 picks for the past 4 years to the prospect pool.

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10-01-2012, 09:03 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Hurt View Post
The difference with the Burke era has been that it feels like (none of us knows for sure) that there is more quality picks being made in the later rounds. All the players are being allowed to develop at their own pace, no one is being rushed.
Frattin, Gunnarsson, Stalberg, Komarov, Holzer, Reimer, Stralman, Mitchell, White, Wellwood.

Let's hope the Leafs can get some of the same out of the recent late round picks.

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10-01-2012, 09:09 AM
  #31
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What an absolutely abysmal decade of drafting. Honestly, TEN years, Rask is probably the best piece, followed by a 2nd/3rd line player in Steen. Absolutely pathetic, no wonder this team sucks.

At least it appears that we've recently improved our drafting, but until a franchise player or at least a top line player gets produced, I won't exactly be holding my breath. We've still only had 29 draft picks in the last four drafts, which is pretty bad for a "rebuilding" team, especially considering we didn't have our own 1sts in two of those drafts. It would have been nice if we had kept those 1sts, sold off a few more assets and had closer to ~35+ draft picks over the last four years.

But still, even though it's not perfect, it still looks like the drafting is better than it was in the early 2000s. But I still want to start seeing some results in the somewhat near future.

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10-01-2012, 10:18 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
If you have the choice between a kid from Mississauga or a kid from Zvolen at the same level, it should be a no-brainer.
Why?

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10-01-2012, 10:24 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
I don't know if you remember but I made a huge deal about our terrible drafting dating back 20 years + or maybe even more.

This team is supposedly one of the most prestigious teams in all of major North American sports and I can guaranty you we have the worst drafting record. Even if its unfair to compare a hockey draft to that of baseball or basketball but its laughable how bad our draft is comparing to our original six counter parts in hockey going 20 or even 30 years back.

And surprisingly, I actually saw people making positive cases for our scouting.

You know me MaddY, I'm a draft junkie, as I love scouting amateur players extensively before they're even drafted, and make my own rankings pre-draft. I've even attended a amateur scouting course put on by the Central Scouting years ago for people interested in the profession as a career potentially just for informative purposes.

I have been very critical of Leafs drafting over the years, even at the time of the draft itself and whom they selected and whom I believed they should have instead IMO.

My boy Kulemin, was one of the few I had selected personally and also saw the Leafs draft him in the same round and spot I had predicted. Wellwood years ago selected in the later rounds was also a player I liked and expected to carve out an NHL career was also a Leaf selection.

Leafs scouts worst enemy is their own GM as "draft schmaft" as early picks are regularly dealt for instant help for decades.. When one realizes the sacrifices made by dealing those picks it really hurts.. Case in point the 2003 draft where Leafs acquired Owen Nolan, but passed up the opportunity to draft Corey Perry, Mike Richards, Shea Weber, Ryan Kesler, Patrice Bergeron etc. for 79 games and 60 points of Nolan over two seasons, before they bought him out.

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10-01-2012, 10:25 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
It really is amazing how bad it's been. Just based on the law of averages, the Leafs have to have a star in the current prospect pool, or at least will draft on in the next few years.
I don't think that the amount of PPG players is that good of a way to evaluate how good the Leafs drafted. Not saying they drafted well, though, but that is a flawed way to evaluate any team's draft record. Let's say a team drafts some good d-men but they will never be PPG players because they are d-men. So you're going to say they have a bad drafting record because they did not draft any PPG players?

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10-01-2012, 11:17 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Suntouchable13 View Post
I don't think that the amount of PPG players is that good of a way to evaluate how good the Leafs drafted. Not saying they drafted well, though, but that is a flawed way to evaluate any team's draft record. Let's say a team drafts some good d-men but they will never be PPG players because they are d-men. So you're going to say they have a bad drafting record because they did not draft any PPG players?
Who are these Leaf drafted Dmen you're referring to Carlo Colaiacovo, Ian White, Carl Gunnarsson, Luke Schenn ?

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10-01-2012, 11:24 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by crump View Post
Here are the picks lost in those trades....(prospects involved in trades already selected by leafs in brackets)

Francis - Jared Boll
Leetch- Michael Sauer, Kris Chucko (, Kondratiev, Immonen)
Nolan - Mark Stuart (McCauley, Boyes)
Housley -Chris Porter and Karel Hromas

Clearly, the one that stung was the Nolan trade. Boll is a useful player right now. But you rent hall of famers, you have to give up something.
In my opinion the only major losses was McCauley & Boyes.

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10-01-2012, 11:36 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Why?
1) Already adapted to the North Amercian style of hockey.
2) Likely developed in better/more competitive hockey system.
3) No language issues.
4) Would likely be fulfilling a kid's dream to play for their hometown team.
5) Make Don Cherry happy.

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10-01-2012, 11:40 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Suntouchable13 View Post
I don't think that the amount of PPG players is that good of a way to evaluate how good the Leafs drafted. Not saying they drafted well, though, but that is a flawed way to evaluate any team's draft record. Let's say a team drafts some good d-men but they will never be PPG players because they are d-men. So you're going to say they have a bad drafting record because they did not draft any PPG players?
I didn't use the PPG reference, I just mentioned how the Leafs haven't been able to draft a "star player" in recent history.

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10-01-2012, 11:42 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
I didn't use the PPG reference, I just mentioned how the Leafs haven't been able to draft a "star player" in recent history.
They chose not to.

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10-01-2012, 12:03 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
They chose not to.
While it seems odd for you to state it that way, in fact it bears a lot of truth also.

If you take a strong draft like 2008 and have a top 5 pick and select Luke Schenn a known defense first Dman, with known limited offensive skills then you get what you drafted and paid for.. If you gamble on players like you (Colin Wilson) or me (Cody Hodgson) or I wanted, and would have stayed put at #7 overall and made more selections with the 2nd and 3rd round picks used to move up to #5 we would also have had 3 prospects for 1 by our strategy instead.

Also if a team is drafting for "pugnacity, testosterone, truculence and belligerence" and drafting a Jamie Devane in the 3rd round and a whole 2009 draft focused on NA only players as your GM confirms was not by accident but design. Then you are only going to get what you where fishing for and are intentionally selecting a limited player at the starting point of the entire process.

This is unlike teams like Detroit, who believe in drafting skill and often find Euro gems in later rounds as a result of swinging for the fences at the draft, and not trying to lay down bunt singles with your selections. You can't teach skill so its best to draft it, and then start development into NHLers thereafter.

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10-01-2012, 12:14 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
I didn't use the PPG reference, I just mentioned how the Leafs haven't been able to draft a "star player" in recent history.
But to me it seemed like you did correlate "star player" with being a "PPG player". You can draft star goalies and d-men but they will never be PPG players. Anyway, just irked me a bit that Mess would evaluate the Leafs drafting record just based on how many (or lack thereof) PPG players the Leafs drafted. How many PPG players there in the league right now anyway? Many teams have not drafted any PPG players in the last little while. There were only 7 players who finished the season with a PPG or higher last season.


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10-01-2012, 12:26 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Suntouchable13 View Post
But to me it seemed like you did correlate "star player" with being a "PPG player". You can draft star goalies and d-men but they will never be PPG players. Anyway, just irked me a bit that Mess would evaluate the Leafs drafting record just based on how many (or lack thereof) PPG players the Leafs drafted. How many PPG players there in the league right now anyway? Many teams have not drafted any PPG players in the last little while.
What should irk Leaf fans is Leafs actual limited success at the draft table, not how they're being classified.

You make it sound like Leafs have been drafting these great Dmen and Goalies over the past 20 years, and their scouting is being unfairly criticized and eliminated by the "star player PPG" tag here, to define a high-end/top line performer here.

How many top 3 forwards, top pairing defenders, or elite starting goalies that would qualify as Star NHL players have the Leafs drafted from 1998-2008?

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10-01-2012, 12:36 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
What should irk Leaf fans is Leafs actual limited success at the draft table, not how they're being classified.

You make it sound like Leafs have been drafting these great Dmen and Goalies over the past 20 years, and their scouting is being unfairly criticized and eliminated by the "star player PPG" tag here, to define a high-end/top line performer here.

How many top 3 forwards, top pairing defenders, or elite starting goalies that would qualify as Star NHL players have the Leafs drafted from 1998-2008?

1st round picks 1985-2007

2007 Jiri Tlusty
2006- traded for Toskala who returned us nothing
2005- Rask who got us Raycroft who we bought out
2004 traded for Leetch who returned us nothing.
2003 traded for Nolan who returned us nothing.
2002, 2001 Steen and Cola got us Stempniak who got us nothing
2000 Boyes traded for Nolan who got us nothing
1999 Luca Cereda, nothing
1998 Nik antropov traded for Kenny Ryan
1997 4th overall (Luongo) traded for Wendel Clarke and Matt Schneider, nothing in return
1996 traded for Dmiotri Yuskevic (became Robert Svehla)
1995 Jeff Ware
1994 Eric Fichaud
1993 Kenny Johnson, Landon Wilson
1992 Brandon Convery, Grant Marshall
1991 (Scott Neidermeyer) for I can't say it....
1990 Drake Berehowsky
1989 Thornton, R Pearson, Bancroft
1988 Scott Pearson
1987 Luke Richardson
1986 Vince Damphouse
1985 Wendel Clarke

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10-01-2012, 12:42 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess View Post
What should irk Leaf fans is Leafs actual limited success at the draft table, not how they're being classified.

You make it sound like Leafs have been drafting these great Dmen and Goalies over the past 20 years, and their scouting is being unfairly criticized and eliminated by the "star player PPG" tag here, to define a high-end/top line performer here.

How many top 3 forwards, top pairing defenders, or elite starting goalies that would qualify as Star NHL players have the Leafs drafted from 1998-2008?
None.....do I get a prize for the correct answer?

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10-01-2012, 12:48 PM
  #45
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1st round picks 1985-2007

2007 Jiri Tlusty
2006- traded for Toskala who returned us nothing
2005- Rask who got us Raycroft who we bought out
2004 traded for Leetch who returned us nothing.
2003 traded for Nolan who returned us nothing.
2002, 2001 Steen and Cola got us Stempniak who got us nothing
2000 Boyes traded for Nolan who got us nothing
1999 Luca Cereda, nothing
1998 Nik antropov traded for Kenny Ryan
1997 4th overall (Luongo) traded for Wendel Clarke and Matt Schneider, nothing in return
1996 traded for Dmiotri Yuskevic (became Robert Svehla)
1995 Jeff Ware
1994 Eric Fichaud
1993 Kenny Johnson, Landon Wilson
1992 Brandon Convery, Grant Marshall
1991 (Scott Neidermeyer) for I can't say it....
1990 Drake Berehowsky
1989 Thornton, R Pearson, Bancroft
1988 Scott Pearson
1987 Luke Richardson
1986 Vince Damphouse
1985 Wendel Clarke
Yup Leafs "drafting and building through draft" reads like a Stephen King horror novel for Leaf Nation.

Not really a surprise that Leafs are one of the weakest NHL teams with the longest non playoff string in existence.

Heck from the 1998-2008 drafts inclusive the Leafs have 4 total players on the NHL roster Kulemin, Frattin, Gunnarsson & Reimer and little else left in the entire organization predating the 2006 entry draft.

Its doesn't get much worse than that for any NHL team.

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10-01-2012, 12:52 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Yup Leafs "drafting and building through draft" reads like a Stephen King horror novel for Leaf Nation.

Not really a surprise that Leafs are one of the weakest NHL teams with the longest non playoff string in existence.

Heck from the 1998-2008 drafts inclusive the Leafs have 4 total players on the NHL roster Kulemin, Frattin, Gunnarsson & Reimer and little else left in the entire organization predating the 2006 entry draft.

Its doesn't get much worse than that for any NHL team.
Acquired/Drafted since 2007:

Phil Kessel, Joffrey Lupul, Dion Phaneuf, JVR, these 4 players alone probably outscored all those draft picks (while playing as Leafs)

And Prospects:
Kadri, Ashton, Gardiner, Colborne, Biggs, Percy, Rielly

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10-01-2012, 12:57 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Acquired/Drafted since 2007:

Phil Kessel, Joffrey Lupul, Dion Phaneuf, JVR, these 4 players alone probably outscored all those draft picks (while playing as Leafs)

And Prospects:
Kadri, Ashton, Gardiner, Colborne, Biggs, Percy, Rielly

We only drafted 4 of these players so we can not take credit for them.

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10-01-2012, 01:00 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by smoke meat pete View Post
Acquired/Drafted since 2007:
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
We only drafted 4 of these players so we can not take credit for them.
What does "take credit" really mean?

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10-01-2012, 01:01 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Drew311 View Post
It really is amazing how bad it's been. Just based on the law of averages, the Leafs have to have a star in the current prospect pool, or at least will draft on in the next few years.
Gambler's fallacy. Our chances won't go up or down in any given year based solely on this.

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10-01-2012, 02:48 PM
  #50
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So basically what you're saying is trade Kadri?

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