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Leaf fans: would you trade kadri for luongo?

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Old
10-01-2012, 03:51 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
based on y2kcanucks logic you can't possibly know that
Weird how he seems to know Gillis has 29 teams to deal with.

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10-01-2012, 03:52 PM
  #252
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No I wouldn't. You know why? There's talk the new CBA will make it so every NHL contract counts against the cap during it's entire time. Regardless if the player retires.

If that happens, Gillis will never be able to move Luongo.

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10-01-2012, 03:53 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by bzer View Post
I would argue that Gunnarsson is much more valuable than Gardiner at this moment. Of course, Gardiner is projected to be better in the future but Canucks are at a win-now stage.
That doesn't make Gunnar more valuable as a player.

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10-01-2012, 03:55 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by CSimpson18 View Post
As an outsider, Kadri and Gunnarson for Luongo seems reasonable but favors TO slightly.

While it would be difficult to replace Gunnarson in the short term, players of his talent level are available most years in FA, plus Gardiner and Rielly will soon be able to take over his minutes.

Kadri is a good prospect but has some hurdles to overcome. He is unlikely to be more than a decent top 6 forward. Not to mention the questions surrounding his commitment level.

Luongo is a top 15 goalie in the league who's value has never been lower. He's got his warts as well. His contract sucks (too long) and he's been sub-par in the last couple playoff runs. Nonetheless, high end goaltenders don't come along every day as Toronto fans are painfully aware of.

I think Toronto would be foolish to turn the offer down. The only way they lose this trade is if a) Kadri becomes more than a decent top 6 (unlikely given current development curve) or b) Luongo's play falls off a cliff (unlikely given his consistently good performance over the last 7 or 8 years).

Then why is there so little interest in Luongo? The fact is, very few teams have a need for a goalie. That sinks Luongo's value as well as the contract.

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10-01-2012, 03:55 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
This is wrong. Columbus has absolutely no qualms about committing money. The question would be one of committing assets in a trade.

At full requested value, there isn't much of a market for Luongo. Drop the price as a result and suddenly a lot more teams are interested.

* * *


We were in fact seeking to acquire another goaltender, per Howson's remarks shortly after the Bob acquisition. The implication was that Mason was going to be the one leaving.

* * *


Again, this is incorrect. We're just insisting on paying pennies on the dollar.

* * *


Please. The bag of pucks was one of several parts of the deal. Erixon insisted because otherwise he'd pout again. That's why he left Calgary; they didn't get him the right kind of pucks.

Ultimately, while we didn't replace him straight up, we got the best alternative we were insisting on - multiple reliable top-6 forwards who'll motivate the whole damn team. We didn't get the precise kinds of futures we wanted either, but oh well.

* * *


Yeah, that's crazy talk. The market is limited for Luongo as much as it was for Nash; the difference is that it's not as limited as folks are desperately trying to assume (read: there's more than two teams ).

It may not be limited by Luongo providing a list, but there's still many, many teams that have no need for him. (And who's to say Luongo wouldn't reject some teams regardless?)
Valid points indeed

However from everything I have read and heard - I doubt Luongo waives his NTC to go to Columbus so take them off the list anyway

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10-01-2012, 03:55 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
No I wouldn't. You know why? There's talk the new CBA will make it so every NHL contract counts against the cap during it's entire time. Regardless if the player retires.

If that happens, Gillis will never be able to move Luongo.
Then we move Schneider. I'm fine with that.

Not to mention Gillis would probably deal Luongo to Florida or another cap floor team just before he retires so that they can keep his cap hit on the books and not have to pay the salary.

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10-01-2012, 03:57 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
No I wouldn't. You know why? There's talk the new CBA will make it so every NHL contract counts against the cap during it's entire time. Regardless if the player retires.

If that happens, Gillis will never be able to move Luongo.
Avatar bet that previously signed contracts would be grandfathered in if that happened? For 1 month after new CBA is signed?

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10-01-2012, 03:57 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
The asset is only "toxic" if the CBA decides to punish everyone who signed a retirement contract(Weber, Parise, Kovalchuk, Luongo, Hossa, Suter, etc, and their respective teams). While they may prevent new ones from being signed, the owners wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot by punishing contracts that were legal at the time of the signing.
Teams will only be punished if they intended to circumvent the cap. If they expect these players to play out the deals then they have nothing to worry about.

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10-01-2012, 03:58 PM
  #259
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With some of the concerns being raised about Kadri's conditioning, I wonder if this cut hurt the perception of him and also impact his value in any trade. If Gillis had some interest he may see this as a bit of a red flag. The Canucks are adamant that all of their players be in top shape. This is one area where Kassian was told to improve on when he came from Buffalo. According to reports Kassian took this to heart and is in great shape right now.

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10-01-2012, 04:00 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Teams will only be punished if they intended to circumvent the cap. If they expect these players to play out the deals then they have nothing to worry about.
And how is this determined? If Luongo got a career ending injury right now, would his cap hit only start counting when he's 39, because those are the "cheating" years? It's impossible to determine what people's intentions are. If an owner says, I thought my star player would end up like Brodeur/Selanne/whoever, howw do you prove him wrong?

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10-01-2012, 04:04 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
And how is this determined? If Luongo got a career ending injury right now, would his cap hit only start counting when he's 39, because those are the "cheating" years? It's impossible to determine what people's intentions are. If an owner says, I thought my star player would end up like Brodeur/Selanne/whoever, howw do you prove him wrong?
They all know that the percentage of players who stay in the league until 40 is extremely low.

If team sign players to extremely long contracts then they should also be liable for the cap hit to the end of the contract if a player gets injured. They took that risk and shouldn't get an advantage because the player got hurt.

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10-01-2012, 04:07 PM
  #262
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Smallish third line centers are available in free agency most years. 20 point dmen are available in free agency most years. Top-5 goaltenders in the NHL are not. Top-5 goaltenders are ALWAYS signed to long-term deals before they hit free agency because they are so valuable. (Just as Luongo is signed to a long term deal - the only reason he could be available is because it appears as though Vancouver has 2 top-10 goalies).


One other thing to add. Look at the other top-goalies.

Rinne 7.0 cap hit
Lundquist 6.9 cap hit
Price 6.5 cap hit
Ward 6.3 cap hit
Miller 6.3 cap hit
Kiprusoff 5.8 cap hit
Quick 5.8 cap hit

Luongo 5.3 cap hit


So people are saying Luongo has a bad contract, but he has a very nice cap hit. And it's been established (and confirmed by Luongo himself) that he will only play for the next 6 years and then retire. (And if he doesn't retire at that point than he can be sent down to the minors anyways, since he does NOT have a NMC).

So it's actually a really good contract. It's just a complicated contract.

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10-01-2012, 04:11 PM
  #263
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Is that what Toronto as a collective fan base wants? You don't think there is mass pressure to make the playoffs this year?
What Toronto wants is to keep our young players/picks for the future and develop them because it's more important then anything else as we're in a rebuild. Making the playoffs is just a bonus and contrary to popular belief we can make the playoffs without mortgaging more of our future for Luongo, not sure why Vancouver fans are stuck that Toronto (or any other team for the matter) must give Gillis want he wants for something they don't necessarily need.

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10-01-2012, 04:12 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by Socratic Method Man View Post
Smallish third line centers are available in free agency most years. 20 point dmen are available in free agency most years. Top-5 goaltenders in the NHL are not. Top-5 goaltenders are ALWAYS signed to long-term deals before they hit free agency because they are so valuable. (Just as Luongo is signed to a long term deal - the only reason he could be available is because it appears as though Vancouver has 2 top-10 goalies).


One other thing to add. Look at the other top-goalies.

Rinne 7.0 cap hit
Lundquist 6.9 cap hit
Price 6.5 cap hit
Ward 6.3 cap hit
Miller 6.3 cap hit
Kiprusoff 5.8 cap hit
Quick 5.8 cap hit

Luongo 5.3 cap hit


So people are saying Luongo has a bad contract, but he has a very nice cap hit. And it's been established (and confirmed by Luongo himself) that he will only play for the next 6 years and then retire. (And if he doesn't retire at that point than he can be sent down to the minors anyways, since he does NOT have a NMC).

So it's actually a really good contract. It's just a complicated contract.
I'm a Canucks fan, and I know exactly what interview you're talking about but he certainly did not say he'd play for only 6 more years. The exact wording was ""Maybe [the contract]'s a bit of a handicap for me right now to be able to decide as far as how many teams are really interested in my services," Luongo said. "There's a few teams on there that I'd be willing to look at."

"Obviously Florida is my home in the off-season and makes sense, [there are] family reasons why [but] at the end of the day it's hockey, also. There’s not many years left in my career even though I got a long contract; I want to be focused on a chance to do something."


So it could be 6, could be 8, could be 4. Who knows. But certainly doesn't sound like he'll run the whole contract.

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10-01-2012, 04:12 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by thebluemachine View Post
What Toronto wants is to keep our young players/picks for the future and develop them because it's more important then anything else as we're in a rebuild. Making the playoffs is just a bonus and contrary to popular belief we can make the playoffs without mortgaging more of our future for Luongo, not sure why Vancouver fans are stuck that Toronto (or any other team for the matter) must give Gillis want he wants for something they don't necessarily need.
Well if you want to keep your prospects, why balk at a Luongo for Lupul deal?

And if you won't give up anything of value for Luongo then we just won't be trading him to Toronto, and I'm fine with that.

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10-01-2012, 04:13 PM
  #266
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They all know that the percentage of players who stay in the league until 40 is extremely low.

If team sign players to extremely long contracts then they should also be liable for the cap hit to the end of the contract if a player gets injured. They took that risk and shouldn't get an advantage because the player got hurt.
You realize how ridiculous that is. A team could lose 10% of their cap space for the better part a decade if one of their star player goes down. Not going to happen.

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10-01-2012, 04:15 PM
  #267
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If he's smart, stays patient and lets our kids develop into NHL roles in the next 6 months while moving expendable vets for higher quality or more youth, he can keep his job, whether he makes the playoffs or not.
"He can keep his job" is not the same as "he will keep his job". Again, if Burke does not trade for Lu, and TO misses the playoffs, is he finally fired?

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10-01-2012, 04:15 PM
  #268
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I'm a Canucks fan, and I know exactly what interview you're talking about but he certainly did not say he'd play for only 6 more years. The exact wording was ""Maybe [the contract]'s a bit of a handicap for me right now to be able to decide as far as how many teams are really interested in my services," Luongo said. "There's a few teams on there that I'd be willing to look at."

So it could be 6, could be 8, could be 4. Who knows. But certainly doesn't sound like he'll run the whole contract.
I recall him saying something to the effect of "Well, it's not about the money, I mean, my contract is set for a very long time, probably longer than I might want to play out."

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10-01-2012, 04:16 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I recall him saying something to the effect of "Well, it's not about the money, I mean, my contract is set for a very long time, probably longer than I might want to play out."
I accidentally copied only half the quote, I corrected it but after you quoted mine haha. I have it updated

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10-01-2012, 04:18 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Skead View Post
I'm a Canucks fan, and I know exactly what interview you're talking about but he certainly did not say he'd play for only 6 more years. The exact wording was ""Maybe [the contract]'s a bit of a handicap for me right now to be able to decide as far as how many teams are really interested in my services," Luongo said. "There's a few teams on there that I'd be willing to look at."

"Obviously Florida is my home in the off-season and makes sense, [there are] family reasons why [but] at the end of the day it's hockey, also. There’s not many years left in my career even though I got a long contract; I want to be focused on a chance to do something."


So it could be 6, could be 8, could be 4. Who knows. But certainly doesn't sound like he'll run the whole contract.
SHHHH you're ruining their come back!

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10-01-2012, 04:19 PM
  #271
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"He can keep his job" is not the same as "he will keep his job". Again, if Burke does not trade for Lu, and TO misses the playoffs, is he finally fired?
I'll give it a whirl.

No.

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10-01-2012, 04:20 PM
  #272
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You realize how ridiculous that is. A team could lose 10% of their cap space for the better part a decade if one of their star player goes down. Not going to happen.
Giving a team a free pass when they signed a player to a 10 year contract is what is ridiculous.

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10-01-2012, 04:21 PM
  #273
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I'm a Canucks fan, and I know exactly what interview you're talking about but he certainly did not say he'd play for only 6 more years. The exact wording was ""Maybe [the contract]'s a bit of a handicap for me right now to be able to decide as far as how many teams are really interested in my services," Luongo said. "There's a few teams on there that I'd be willing to look at."

"Obviously Florida is my home in the off-season and makes sense, [there are] family reasons why [but] at the end of the day it's hockey, also. There’s not many years left in my career even though I got a long contract; I want to be focused on a chance to do something."


So it could be 6, could be 8, could be 4. Who knows. But certainly doesn't sound like he'll run the whole contract.
Well after 6 years his salary drops off a cliff, so that seems like the most logical time for him to retire doesn't it? But I'll take your word, as my memory of the interview is a bit hazy at this point.

But the other point I made still stands: Luongo does not have a NMC so he can be sent to the minors at any point. Additionally, 6 years from now, Luongo has a clause in his contract which permits the team to trade Luongo. So in 6 years, Luongo could retire, could be sent to the minors, or could be traded.

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10-01-2012, 04:21 PM
  #274
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I'll give it whirl.

No.
I'd say Burke is more likely to be fired if he misses the playoffs than Gillis if e lose against Luongo in the playoffs. I'd also say its more liklely the Leafs miss the playoffs without Luongo than the Canucks losing against Edmonton/Chicago/Columbus/whoever in the playoffs.

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10-01-2012, 04:23 PM
  #275
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Giving a team a free pass when they signed a player to a 10 year contract is what is ridiculous.
It was legal, so why not? If you change the law, you can't punish someone for something that was permitted at that time.

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