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Leaf fans: would you trade kadri for luongo?

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Old
10-02-2012, 04:31 PM
  #651
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Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
All depends on the new CBA, for all we know a contract like his becomes even more of a handcuff making it impossible to trade him. Even if the new CBA doesn't impact his contract's value, Luongo will have lost another year (if it is a full year lockout) of elite playing status, and put him one year closer to retirement. Hard to argue that his value will increase as a result of the lockout.

I think Gillis made a huge mistake holding on to him, and although I wanted Luongo for the right price on the Leafs, it appears not acquiring him could have been a great move by Burke due to the potential changes to the CBA.
I doubt that the CBA will affect it much to be honest. In any event we will know by then. I really don't see much downside in Gillis hanging onto Luongo if there were no good offers. Teams were likely unwilling to make a fair trade without knowing what the CBA was going to say. Once that gets resolved then we should see pretty quick movement, IMO. I only see Luongo's value going up as a number of teams with questionable goaltending inevitably struggle out of the gate. In a shortened season most GM"s will have to move quickly or they could be out of the playoff race by the end of the first month.

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10-02-2012, 04:33 PM
  #652
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
He's a high level offensive prospect. Glad that I could help to educate you but that should be common knowledge.
I guess that depends on your definition of a high level prospect. If a player who has not had success in the NHL yet creates a hole in your team then you have more holes than a piece of Swiss cheese!

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10-02-2012, 04:35 PM
  #653
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I could live with that, although there's nothing we need Crawford for. If we're giving up a legit top 6 winger in Booth then we should at least get a 1st instead of Crawford.

Although I definitely prefer it to Leafs fans offers.

But Chicago fans will say no.
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Luongo
Booth

Hossa
Crawford

???
We would not mind having Booth, but he is overpaid for the production that he brings. He is by no means a bad player but he has only hit 30 once and hasn't come close since. And no way is that worth a 1st either.
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
The difference between Luongo and Crawford is noticeably bigger than between Hossa and Booth, imo.

All the reasons why Luongo`s value should be low(Age, contract, etc) apply to Hossa as well, and Luongo plays a more important position.

Valuewise something around that would be close, but most Chicago fans don`t want to give up anything of value for Luongo.
You are wrong, Hossa is one of the best wingers in the game. Crawford sucked last year and I wont deny that Luongo is a huge upgrade. Despite that Hossa to Booth is just as big a downgrade. If you cannot see that then I am not sure you have watched him play enough.
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
To be fair, we're not asking for Toews.
And Vancouver is not going to fill the biggest hole that Chicago has without getting something back in return.
My mistake I meant to say last season. With Toews injured Hossa was our best forward last season.

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10-02-2012, 04:35 PM
  #654
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It only makes sens to trade Kadri and Gunnarsson for Luongo if other teams are offering deals like that or more. I doon't see anyone equaling that.

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10-02-2012, 04:36 PM
  #655
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Luongo
Booth

Hossa
Crawford

???
No, and No.

Dont want anything to do with Booth and his lousy contract, and there is no way in hell we are giving up Hossa for Luongo in ANY deal. Most Hawk fans dont even want to give up promising futures for Luongo let alone our 2nd best forward.

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10-02-2012, 04:42 PM
  #656
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Originally Posted by vanwest View Post
I doubt that the CBA will affect it much to be honest. In any event we will know by then. I really don't see much downside in Gillis hanging onto Luongo if there were no good offers. Teams were likely unwilling to make a fair trade without knowing what the CBA was going to say. Once that gets resolved then we should see pretty quick movement, IMO. I only see Luongo's value going up as a number of teams with questionable goaltending inevitably struggle out of the gate. In a shortened season most GM"s will have to move quickly or they could be out of the playoff race by the end of the first month.
The only downside (if you can call it that) is wasted cap on the Canucks. Two goalies of that caliber have been found the best teams, and cup winners, so holding on to him doesn't 'harm' the team, unless it turns into a media circus when hockey does get back. The only harm would be preventing the Canucks from spending the cap somewhere else where they may need it.

A cap decrease, and/or his cap remaining on the books even if he retires are two things that could impact his value which I have heard mentioned from CBA discussions. Considering the NHL has warned teams from signing players to deals like this, grandfathering may not occur in specific cases.

Furthermore Luongo isn't a stop gap at the prices many Nuck fans are suggesting. No team who struggles out of the gate is paying a premium for Luongo if they have a starter who is just struggling. Also most of the teams who are struggling will not be on Luongo's list.

If it is a full season lockout Luongo has lost another year in his prime and considering he won't have played a year, doesn't seem like that many teams will be jumping to snag him.

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10-02-2012, 04:47 PM
  #657
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Originally Posted by AlmightyPO View Post
The only downside (if you can call it that) is wasted cap on the Canucks. Two goalies of that caliber have been found the best teams, and cup winners, so holding on to him doesn't 'harm' the team, unless it turns into a media circus when hockey does get back. The only harm would be preventing the Canucks from spending the cap somewhere else where they may need it.

A cap decrease, and/or his cap remaining on the books even if he retires are two things that could impact his value which I have heard mentioned from CBA discussions. Considering the NHL has warned teams from signing players to deals like this, grandfathering may not occur in specific cases.

Furthermore Luongo isn't a stop gap at the prices many Nuck fans are suggesting. No team who struggles out of the gate is paying a premium for Luongo if they have a starter who is just struggling. Also most of the teams who are struggling will not be on Luongo's list.

If it is a full season lockout Luongo has lost another year in his prime and considering he won't have played a year, doesn't seem like that many teams will be jumping to snag him.
I agree that if there is another full season lockout his value would decrease a little. But if the season starts Jan 1st I think a number of teams who have been waiting for the CBA to get resolved will be much more interested in Luongo as a long term solution, particularly if their goalies struggle.
As far as cap space goes, it only becomes an issue if there are other assets available that can improve the team. Right now I don't see any likely deals so I'd rather hold onto him.
I like the idea of Gillis waiting this one out. The threat of a new CBA and the uncertainty it creates has amed these type of trades very difficult even if Gillis wanted to tarde him right after the end of the season. GM's like certainty and once the new CBA gets settled will be much more comfortable trading, IMO.

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10-02-2012, 04:48 PM
  #658
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I guess that depends on your definition of a high level prospect. If a player who has not had success in the NHL yet creates a hole in your team then you have more holes than a piece of Swiss cheese!
All sorts of players who haven't had success at the NHL level yet that I would like to have on my team.

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10-02-2012, 04:52 PM
  #659
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
All sorts of players who haven't had success at the NHL level yet that I would like to have on my team.
Me too. Some are high end prospects and some are mid level to lower prospects. I'd put Kadri in the mid level category right now. Certainly not the type of player who creates holes in a team but a player who still has some upside.

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10-02-2012, 05:01 PM
  #660
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That does'nt make sense, you can't trade anyone during the playoffs as the deadline has passed.
I know this is like 3 pages back, but you are really slow, man.

Read carefully.

At the trade deadline there was no chance Cory Schneider was going to be traded. Mike Gillis needed the assurance in net in case something happened to Roberto Luongo. Gillis was not going to walk in to the post-season with Eddie Lack as a back-up goaltender. Still keeping up?

Because Schneider wasn't on the block at the trade deadline, Vancouver fans believed he was going to be traded in the off-season when he became an RFA. THAT ALL CHANGED when in game 3 against the Kings, AV and Mike Gillis decided to start Cory Schneider, despite strong efforts in both games 1 and 2 from Roberto Luongo. This was the turning point. This is when all Canuck fans realized Luongo's days were numbered. It all happened within a game-time decision. Ask any Canuck fan about it. This was the realization.

At this point the speculation of trading Luongo began. It was blatantly obvious Luongo knew his time was over in Vancouver. He even said so himself in an interview. Shortly after this, Gillis extended Cory Schneider's contract.

The only scenario where Cory Schneider was getting traded at the trade deadline would have been an offer that was simply impossible to refuse. And at the time the goaltending market wasn't exactly stifling hot so the chances looked bleak.

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10-02-2012, 05:02 PM
  #661
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
It only makes sens to trade Kadri and Gunnarsson for Luongo if other teams are offering deals like that or more. I doon't see anyone equaling that.

As in you don't see HFboards fans offering that value?

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10-02-2012, 05:02 PM
  #662
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Originally Posted by Intense Rage View Post
We would not mind having Booth, but he is overpaid for the production that he brings. He is by no means a bad player but he has only hit 30 once and hasn't come close since. And no way is that worth a 1st either.

You are wrong, Hossa is one of the best wingers in the game. Crawford sucked last year and I wont deny that Luongo is a huge upgrade. Despite that Hossa to Booth is just as big a downgrade. If you cannot see that then I am not sure you have watched him play enough.


My mistake I meant to say last season. With Toews injured Hossa was our best forward last season.
I know hawks fans wouldn't do it, but Luongo is an elite goalie replacing your awful one. Hossa is an elite forward replacing our decent one.(Basically Booth>Crawford, and Luongo = Hossa in terms of talent, in my eyes at least).

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10-02-2012, 05:04 PM
  #663
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Me too. Some are high end prospects and some are mid level to lower prospects. I'd put Kadri in the mid level category right now. Certainly not the type of player who creates holes in a team but a player who still has some upside.
You don't get to see Kadri play that often so your opinion doesn't mean all that much.

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10-02-2012, 05:11 PM
  #664
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
You don't get to see Kadri play that often so your opinion doesn't mean all that much.
My opinion is based on watching him play with the Leafs and reading what hockey scouts say about him. Obviously, the comments from the Marlies' coach also raise some red flags.
I could also state that your opinion on Luongo doesn't mean that much.

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10-02-2012, 05:19 PM
  #665
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I know hawks fans wouldn't do it, but Luongo is an elite goalie replacing your awful one. Hossa is an elite forward replacing our decent one.(Basically Booth>Crawford, and Luongo = Hossa in terms of talent, in my eyes at least).
Booth's contract makes him much less appealing. I see your reasoning I just dont agree with it. Crawford may have had a bad year last season but I don't think we are ready to give up on him. I know to Vancouver fans goalies like Crawford may end up seeming like crap but that does not mean he is viewed the same by the Hawks. I think Bowman believes that Crawford can be a better goalie than he has been thus far. So we will be keeping our "awful" goalie for better or worse.

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10-02-2012, 05:21 PM
  #666
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My opinion is based on watching him play with the Leafs and reading what hockey scouts say about him. Obviously, the comments from the Marlies' coach also raise some red flags.
I could also state that your opinion on Luongo doesn't mean that much.
I've never said anything bad about Luongo.

If you consider Eakins' opinion of Kadri to be important then please listen to this interview:

http://pmd.fan590.com/audio_on_deman...-Interview.mp3

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10-02-2012, 05:22 PM
  #667
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Booth's contract makes him much less appealing. I see your reasoning I just dont agree with it. Crawford may have had a bad year last season but I don't think we are ready to give up on him. I know to Vancouver fans goalies like Crawford may end up seeming like crap but that does not mean he is viewed the same by the Hawks. I think Bowman believes that Crawford can be a better goalie than he has been thus far. So we will be keeping our "awful" goalie for better or worse.
Fair enough.

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10-02-2012, 05:23 PM
  #668
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
I've never said anything bad about Luongo.

If you consider Eakins' opinion of Kadri to be important then please listen to this interview:

http://pmd.fan590.com/audio_on_deman...-Interview.mp3
I never said anything bad about Kadri either. I said he's a mid level prospect with some upside. I know that Eakins tried to retract his comments but I also read Don Cherry's reaction. To me it seems like the Leafs are not as high on him as some of their fans and are trying to give him a wakeup call. Again, I'm not saying that he doesn't have value and upside.

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10-02-2012, 05:25 PM
  #669
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No, and No.

Dont want anything to do with Booth and his lousy contract, and there is no way in hell we are giving up Hossa for Luongo in ANY deal. Most Hawk fans dont even want to give up promising futures for Luongo let alone our 2nd best forward.
Agreed that deal is terrible for the Hawks

Hossa is far far far superior of a player than Booth and I don't think Chicago has to many issues with his long term contract

And although Luongo is the far superior goalie as compared to Crawford - he still tends to crack under the pressure and has that terrible long term contract meaning the gap between these two goalies and their respective baggage isn't that huge

Edit: I also thing Hossa is better that Luongo in terms of value so

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10-02-2012, 05:28 PM
  #670
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After reading a few pages of this thread I started to feel like I was high and drunk at the same time.

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10-02-2012, 05:31 PM
  #671
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Agreed that deal is terrible for the Hawks

Hossa is far far far superior of a player than Booth and I don't think Chicago has to many issues with his long term contract

And although Luongo is the far superior goalie as compared to Crawford - he still tends to crack under the pressure and has that terrible long term contract meaning the gap between these two goalies and their respective baggage isn't that huge

Edit: I also thing Hossa is better that Luongo in terms of value so
For the record, there are only two teams he's ever "cracked" against: The Hawks, which obviously wouldn't be a problem, and Boston, which occured after playing out of his mind for 2 games despite our entire team being injured and playing badly or missing all together(like Hamhuis, our only good shut-down defenseman) after a momentum changing hit that ignited a fire under Boston's players.

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10-02-2012, 05:32 PM
  #672
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So many people say Crawford is awful because of 1!!!!!! bad season.

The year prior he completely out played Luongo in the playoffs and had VERY reasonable numbers. And sure, Luongo still is an improvement even if Crawford returns to that, its still not worth committing 9yrs to Lu. If Crawford doesnt return to 10-11 Crow, then we stil have 8 more years to find a better goalie, and goalies come around quite often.

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10-02-2012, 05:36 PM
  #673
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So many people say Crawford is awful because of 1!!!!!! bad season.

The year prior he completely out played Luongo in the playoffs and had VERY reasonable numbers. And sure, Luongo still is an improvement even if Crawford returns to that, its still not worth committing 9yrs to Lu. If Crawford doesnt return to 10-11 Crow, then we stil have 8 more years to find a better goalie, and goalies come around quite often.
Crawford was pretty bad last season, IMO. He could bounce back or the first decent season could have been a fluke. Who knows at this point. To me he looks like he has some pretty big holes in his game. Mind you, you guys won with Niemi so maybe there's more than one way to build a good team. As for goalies coming around quite often, I don't think that good ones do come around very often. Certainly as a long suffering Canucks' fan I can state that they are not as easy to acquire as some claim. I am sure that a few Flyer fans would agree with me.

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10-02-2012, 05:39 PM
  #674
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I have no doubt Burke thinks he's offering one of the best deals. It's why he's in constant contact with Gillis. The CBA doesn't prevent them negotiating asset value. Only the execution will be delayed due to an unknown landscape.



Fans of opposing teams here (FLA and TO) have taken the "pennies on the dollar" approach. Is this indicative of reality? No. In fact fans of unrelated teams have came into this thread to point this out, to no avail. But then fan perception really doesn't matter. In the end, it's between Gillis and Burke, and the former isn't about to give anything away to the latter (Given their history). I am comforted by this fact alone.







Or you can look at it as Lu not blocking anything at all. If Burke ultimately doesn't believe in Reimer, so much so that he's willing to bring in an established solution with a long-term deal, then he's not blocking a young goaltender, he's instead fixing a problem.






Van is a rich team, and they structured Lu's contract to allow them the maximum benefit possible. TO is another rich team. They will like that his cap hit is about 2mil lower than it should be. This is a positive. And the CBA will ultimately decide the impact of the length of the deal. If it's a detriment, Lu's value declines. But if it declines to the point of having to accept negative value in return, the Canucks should waive him.



Which means that if he is dealt, he's dealt with positive value. This, coupled with his resume, and his ability, should be enough to garner more than just superfluous pieces in return. Thankfully GMs know this, even if fans do not.





You mean there's a price at which the model gets thrown out. Again, he doesn't fit the age group or the contract length, so why does Burke still want him?
The CBA doesn't prevent them from negotiating, but it also makes negotiating relatively pointless, because player values can swing wildly based on what the NHL's and NHLPA's latest proposals are. You get a ballpark on what each team wants to accomplish, and sit on it.

You talk about the "pennies on the dollar approach" -- again, that's meaningless. Fans are offering what it makes sense for their teams to do. You don't like the offer? Go to another team's fans. That's how a market works. You don't like any of the offers? that's a sign that you're overvaluing your player, so then you have to ask, "is there a good reason why my team should value that player higher than any other?"

There's very little concern about Luongo's immediate performance relative to cap hit / salary beyond basic cap affordability for the Leafs, and at what point it makes sense to go with $2.5m between Reimer/Scrivens versus $6m+ with Luongo. What is of concern is how that cap hit affects the long term plan that the Leafs need to operate with.

Barring a decrease into the $50s, the immediate cap hit won't be an issue. That being said, if his value does drop to the point of having to accept negative value in return, what do you think the Canucks have to gain from waiving him??

You seem to be under this ridiculous impression that just because Burke is interested in Luongo, that he's going to pay any price and has zero faith in James Reimer. Any team with questionable goaltending is going to be interested.

It would take a real big win by the NHL to lower Luongo's value to the point where the Leafs wouldn't put in a waiver claim (i.e. insufficient interest even at no asset cost), but it's not like his value becomes infinite from there. At every possible CBA outcome, there will be a price that the Leafs are prepared to pay, and a price at which the Leafs aren't; and that holds true to every other team.

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10-02-2012, 05:44 PM
  #675
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Funny how Hossa has huge value, but Luongo's value is hurt by his contract. They have nearly identical contracts

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