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Leaf fans: would you trade kadri for luongo?

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Old
10-03-2012, 12:42 AM
  #776
Oshie97
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
If you count Dustin Penner as a legitimate top 6 forward then you should really be counting MacArthur as well.
Very good point, Penner is not consistent enough to be considered a legit top 6. Regarding trading Lou for an all star forward, good luck. How do you think he's worth that? Goalies are not worth a lot, add that to having a horrible contract and your getting pick and prospect,a player like MacArthur, or a forward on a not so great contract. I just don't see how others look at this situation any different from that.

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10-03-2012, 12:49 AM
  #777
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Originally Posted by Oshie97 View Post
Very good point, Penner is not consistent enough to be considered a legit top 6. Regarding trading Lou for an all star forward, good luck. How do you think he's worth that? Goalies are not worth a lot, add that to having a horrible contract and your getting pick and prospect,a player like MacArthur, or a forward on a not so great contract. I just don't see how others look at this situation any different from that.
If it's a 1st round pick and a solid prospect, I'd agree. I'd say it's unlikely we get a star forward, but we'd certainly get solid value on our goalie one season removed from Vezina nomination.

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10-03-2012, 12:49 AM
  #778
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
He's still considered a "legitimate top 6 forward" in the same sense David Booth is.

If Booth is the worst top 6er because we acquire a clear cut better winger then we're in great shape.
It seems pretty clear at this point that no GM was willing to offer one for Luongo. If instead of getting one good top 6 guy we got two solid middle 6 guys we could probably still be considered in great shape. Especially if AV would actually play Kesler with Higgins, the only winger outside of Burrows that he has shown good chemistry with.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Higgins
MacArthur-Kadri/Schroeder-Kassian
Raymond/Malhotra-Lapierre-Hansen

It could obviously have another undisputed top 6 guy to play next to Kesler, but that depth looks outstanding from my POV

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10-03-2012, 01:01 AM
  #779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
It seems pretty clear at this point that no GM was willing to offer one for Luongo. If instead of getting one good top 6 guy we got two solid middle 6 guys we could probably still be considered in great shape. Especially if AV would actually play Kesler with Higgins, the only winger outside of Burrows that he has shown good chemistry with.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Higgins
MacArthur-Kadri/Schroeder-Kassian
Raymond/Malhotra-Lapierre-Hansen

It could obviously have another undisputed top 6 guy to play next to Kesler, but that depth looks outstanding from my POV
It's still too much quantity for quality, imo. I'd want a 1st in any deal that doesn't include a star or star prospect. In general the going rate for elite players has been top prospect + 1st + roster player, given the unique situation, I'd be willing to change the roster player to a salary dump, but to accept just a solid prospect and an overpayed tweener is too low for me to stoop.

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10-03-2012, 01:02 AM
  #780
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
If instead of getting one good top 6 guy we got two solid middle 6 guys we could probably still be considered in great shape.
Problem is neither MacArthur or Kadri are solid guys AV would depend on.

MacArthur is a great banger who can set up people well (probably a better fit for Kesler than Higgins.) Problem is he can't play defense at the level of our other players.

Kadri hasn't shown the ability to play in the NHL (on the defensive side of the puck). He's looking more like a top 6 or bust winger. Not a rookie who's ready to step in as contributor on a contender.

Not to mention AV who loves giving our #3C the d-zone starts.

I'd much rather have Kulemin who isn't an UFA and is defensively responsible winger with size whom AV/Gillis/NHL loves.

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10-03-2012, 01:10 AM
  #781
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It's still too much quantity for quality, imo. I'd want a 1st in any deal that doesn't include a star or star prospect. In general the going rate for elite players has been top prospect + 1st + roster player, given the unique situation, I'd be willing to change the roster player to a salary dump, but to accept just a solid prospect and an overpayed tweener is too low for me to stoop.
Elite players, not goalies. Luongo will make whatever team he goes to an instant playoff contender. But he isn't Patrick Roy either.

The thing is Vancouver can certainly wait. But what happens if the Canucks miss Kesler more than expected and the team is middling in the 8-12 spot in the conference (not too far fetched)? If Luongo is still on the team it would be an enormous distraction.

On the other hand, as much as I hate Burke, he can simply roll with Reimer and Scrivens. If either of them actually start playing well consistently for at least half a season then Gillis might not be able to get ANYTHING if value..

Dangerous game of chicken for Vancouver.

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10-03-2012, 01:29 AM
  #782
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
Elite players, not goalies. Luongo will make whatever team he goes to an instant playoff contender. But he isn't Patrick Roy either.

The thing is Vancouver can certainly wait. But what happens if the Canucks miss Kesler more than expected and the team is middling in the 8-12 spot in the conference (not too far fetched)? If Luongo is still on the team it would be an enormous distraction.

On the other hand, as much as I hate Burke, he can simply roll with Reimer and Scrivens. If either of them actually start playing well consistently for at least half a season then Gillis might not be able to get ANYTHING if value..

Dangerous game of chicken for Vancouver.
Luongo and Schneider have an excellent relationship, and there's been absolutely no signs of tensions between them, there is no real "distraction" by keeping Luongo; Gillis has said it, and Luongo has said it.

And as likely as it is that Toronto's goaltending situation resolves itself, it is at least as likely that one of Lindback, Holtby, Crawford, Bobrovsky, etc, collapse and require a team to find a replacement. We are in no hurry to trade Luongo, and there's also a chance that if Luongo outplays Schneider towards the end of the season that he's the one who's dealt instead.

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10-03-2012, 01:31 AM
  #783
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Figured some might find this funny...


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10-03-2012, 01:53 AM
  #784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
Elite players, not goalies. Luongo will make whatever team he goes to an instant playoff contender. But he isn't Patrick Roy either.

The thing is Vancouver can certainly wait. But what happens if the Canucks miss Kesler more than expected and the team is middling in the 8-12 spot in the conference (not too far fetched)? If Luongo is still on the team it would be an enormous distraction.

On the other hand, as much as I hate Burke, he can simply roll with Reimer and Scrivens. If either of them actually start playing well consistently for at least half a season then Gillis might not be able to get ANYTHING if value..

Dangerous game of chicken for Vancouver.
Hardly a dangerous game at all. Our team played horribly from mid-late January through to the playoffs with the exception of our goalies, who basically dragged us to the presidents trophy by themselves. Kesler played hurt all of last year and it was very obvious, I doubt we'll miss him more than we already did last year when we won the president's trophy.

Vancouver is not a bubble team yet, even without Kesler, and certainly not so long as we have both goalies.

The real dangerous game is for Burke. If Reimer and Scrivens are unable to take a giant leap in development and the team finishes bottom 10 again, he's almost certainly gone and he knows it. What happens when his job is on the line?

There are also lots of other teams with questionable goaltending who would welcome perennial elite goaltending, particularly a contender like Washington.

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Figured some might find this funny...


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10-03-2012, 02:23 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by LuckyLager View Post
It seems pretty clear at this point that no GM was willing to offer one for Luongo. If instead of getting one good top 6 guy we got two solid middle 6 guys we could probably still be considered in great shape. Especially if AV would actually play Kesler with Higgins, the only winger outside of Burrows that he has shown good chemistry with.

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Higgins
MacArthur-Kadri/Schroeder-Kassian
Raymond/Malhotra-Lapierre-Hansen

It could obviously have another undisputed top 6 guy to play next to Kesler, but that depth looks outstanding from my POV
On a contending team it is not a good idea to have an almost rookie 3rd line. They need to be trusted to shut good players down.

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10-03-2012, 02:35 AM
  #786
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a prospect for a top 10 goalie, on a team starving for good goaltending.
obvious answer is yes

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10-03-2012, 02:41 AM
  #787
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Nazem Kadri is slowly turning into the Leafs version of Jordan Schroeder.....

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10-03-2012, 02:54 AM
  #788
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Oh funny funny. A thread about Luongo created one day ago is now at 32 pgs. We're either starved for hockey or Luongo is a hot topic in the hockey world. I'm guessing both is true.

I'm not a leaf fan, so I can't speak from their side. I can't imagine it would make much sense from a Nucks perspective. For one, they already have 4 strong lefty d-men. Connauton (lefty) hasn't even been given a call up cause they're too deep on that side. Even if Ballard was traded (likely), there's still not enough room.

Kadri is a great prospect but with news of his potential training issues, you know Gillis only sees a red flag. Guys who don't conform to the Nucks aggressive nutritional/training regimes have either been shipped out (O'Brien/Wellwood), or sent across North America to conform (Kassian). I can definitely see a young centre coming the other way, just not sure Kadri makes sense.

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10-03-2012, 02:57 AM
  #789
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On a contending team it is not a good idea to have an almost rookie 3rd line. They need to be trusted to shut good players down.
I know what you are getting at here, but it is effectively an invalid point unless you are playing NHL 13 or something. Coaches are not bound to playing the lineup exactly as it is written, and obviously adjust for matchups. Remember last year how Hodgson was replaced by Malhotra on the third line for defensive zone starts? That seemed to work pretty well...

The whole point of my post was that we would have excellent depth. Playing two offensively talented kids 12 minutes a game alongside MacArthur on a 3rd scoring line is not a big issue. If you would prefer labelling the checking line as the 3rd line, and the 3rd scoring line as the 4th instead then by all means, go ahead. I just think it is important to get scoring from at least 3 lines, which we were unable to do after Hodgson cooled off and was traded.

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10-03-2012, 03:59 AM
  #790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhay1987 View Post
Elite players, not goalies. Luongo will make whatever team he goes to an instant playoff contender. But he isn't Patrick Roy either.

The thing is Vancouver can certainly wait. But what happens if the Canucks miss Kesler more than expected and the team is middling in the 8-12 spot in the conference (not too far fetched)? If Luongo is still on the team it would be an enormous distraction.

On the other hand, as much as I hate Burke, he can simply roll with Reimer and Scrivens. If either of them actually start playing well consistently for at least half a season then Gillis might not be able to get ANYTHING if value..

Dangerous game of chicken for Vancouver.
Considering we have two of the best players in the league, among a long list of solid players and two top tier goaltenders in the respective category. The probability of us middling in eight would be slim at best. Kesler, while a fantastic player, does not break this team. Evidently, our chances of topping out the conference or going far in the playoffs are worthy of debate but otherwise we will compete.

Perhaps, however when the alternate is to sell Luongo for pennies on the dollar. I would rather throw the dice and see what comes of it. There are a whole slew of teams with uncertainty in net. We can afford to play chicken.

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10-03-2012, 06:23 AM
  #791
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I did say "solid" top 6 forward, but I guess the teams we root for have given us different definitions of what's a solid top-6er.

Luckily what the majority of a fanbase is willing to offer(sometimes based on stereotypes, like "playoff choker", and "killer contract" when that is not the case, and certainly isn't the reason we're trading him) is not indicative of how a GM feels a player can change the dynamics of his team. Any team that gets Luongo will see an immediate improvement on the ice. If a GM feels that showing signs of being competitive may help him in the long run by signing free agents(*cough*Getzlaf) or re-signing other players(*cough* Kessel) he may decide that the team would be better off losing some futures that don't look to be an integral part of the future.

What fans feel is irrelevant, they may think that all their players love playing there, or that their GM could've signed top free agents, he was simply biding his time, but the GM knows whether or not that is actually true, and will act accordingly.
Improvement on the ice is great -- but it means nothing if it comes at a cost that prevents the team from improving in other areas.

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We've already got 4 top 6 wingers better than MacArthur. We don't need to get anyone.
No, you've got 3. Sedin, Burrows, Booth.

Vankiller asked for a top 6 forward, MacArthur is one. If you can do better then great, go do better with another team. You're not going to get more than Toronto's maximum willingness to pay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
If it's a 1st round pick and a solid prospect, I'd agree. I'd say it's unlikely we get a star forward, but we'd certainly get solid value on our goalie one season removed from Vezina nomination.
Does a 1st + Jesse Blacker appeal any more to you than Nazem Kadri + a 3rd?

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10-03-2012, 06:58 AM
  #792
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No, you've got 3. Sedin, Burrows, Booth.

Vankiller asked for a top 6 forward, MacArthur is one. If you can do better then great, go do better with another team. You're not going to get more than Toronto's maximum willingness to pay.
If MacArthur counts toward our top six, then Higgins and arguably Hansen would too. The former is clearly superior while the latter is more defensive oriented compared to Mac being a one-dimensional fringe scorer. The only benefit he brings is possibly locking Higgins on the second line. In essence, he would be... a tweener.

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10-03-2012, 07:19 AM
  #793
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Oh lawd. We don't want luongo. We don't want to give up Kadri.

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10-03-2012, 08:00 AM
  #794
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Improvement on the ice is great -- but it means nothing if it comes at a cost that prevents the team from improving in other areas.



No, you've got 3. Sedin, Burrows, Booth.

Vankiller asked for a top 6 forward, MacArthur is one. If you can do better then great, go do better with another team. You're not going to get more than Toronto's maximum willingness to pay.



Does a 1st + Jesse Blacker appeal any more to you than Nazem Kadri + a 3rd?
Well, imo it should be a "solid" top 6 player(not Macarthur or even Kulemin), or a strong futures package. Blacker + 1st is slightly better, but it's still not enough value to make me want to trade him. Blacker is not at all needed on our depth chart, and his ceiling is too low to be considered a main piece.

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10-03-2012, 08:25 AM
  #795
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You still don't get that making teams adhere to the contracts they handed out in the first place isn't punishment. They're also not changing the actual contracts, only how they will reflect under the new CBA.
I think there is also talk of limiting contract length to 5 or 6 years under the new CBA. Wouldn't that make all long term contracts null & void? What do you do with all those long term deals already signed? Are Shea & co. suddenly UFA's? let the Weber to Vancouver posts begin

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10-03-2012, 08:34 AM
  #796
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Can we stop with the "Luongo will make any team he goes to an instant contender" rhetoric?

He played five seasons in Florida of very good hockey, some of it even better than he could be reasonably expected to play wherever he goes next, and they did not make the playoffs even once during his tenure there.

Luongo only makes you an automatic contender when the rest of the roster is stacked

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10-03-2012, 09:04 AM
  #797
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No goalie guarantees anything. Neither is a forward. All goalies have bad games, and all forwards have dry patches. I think Chicago + Luongo - Hossa is a better team that stands a better chance of success in the playoffs.
Exactly, so why pay a premium for a non guarantee?

Hossa is far more important to Chicago than an elite goalie. Teams can win the cup without an elite goalie, but hard to win a cup without solid forward depth. Chicagos team defense is terrible already, and now you think they will improve when they trade away their 2nd best defensive forward?

Nuck fans say the reason Luongo was terrible in a lot of games was because the defense let up great oppurtunities, well that won't change when he comes to Chicago.

We are still a 1st or 2nd round fodder with Luongo instead of Hossa, because our team defense would be terrible, and Luongo isn't any kind of saviour.

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10-03-2012, 09:10 AM
  #798
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I don't think anyone has said Luongo makes anyone an instant contender, but to a team like Toronto that already has some pieces they become a legitimate playoff challenger.

Also, neither Kulemin or MacArthur are upgrades on what the Canucks already have. We don't need anymore middle 6 players, we need legitimate top 6 wingers who can pick up some scoring slack when the rest of our scoring disappears in the playoffs.

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10-03-2012, 09:46 AM
  #799
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I think there is also talk of limiting contract length to 5 or 6 years under the new CBA. Wouldn't that make all long term contracts null & void? What do you do with all those long term deals already signed? Are Shea & co. suddenly UFA's? let the Weber to Vancouver posts begin
No it just means any new contracts going forward will have a limit of 5-6 years if that's the length they decide on. Contracts that are already signed (regardless if they're longer or shorter) will remain the way they are. What's likely to change is how cap hits are calculated and will reflect under the new CBA, as well as retirement outs.

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10-03-2012, 09:47 AM
  #800
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
a prospect for a top 10 goalie, on a team starving for good goaltending.
obvious answer is yes
The clarity in this post is refreshing.

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