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Leaf fans: would you trade kadri for luongo?

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Old
10-03-2012, 11:01 AM
  #801
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Exactly, so why pay a premium for a non guarantee?

Hossa is far more important to Chicago than an elite goalie. Teams can win the cup without an elite goalie, but hard to win a cup without solid forward depth. Chicagos team defense is terrible already, and now you think they will improve when they trade away their 2nd best defensive forward?

Nuck fans say the reason Luongo was terrible in a lot of games was because the defense let up great oppurtunities, well that won't change when he comes to Chicago.

We are still a 1st or 2nd round fodder with Luongo instead of Hossa, because our team defense would be terrible, and Luongo isn't any kind of saviour.
I guess it boils down to whether you think Chicago would be better off after that trade. Personally I think the upgrade in goaltending is worth the loss of firepower up front. The past two cup winners have had elite goaltenders, and the only reason why you won the cup is because you had a stacked team, as well as the fact you weren't facing good goaltending in the finals. It's almost impossible to win the cup without a good goaltender, unless you want to tank again and get loads of talent before being capstrated again.

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10-03-2012, 11:03 AM
  #802
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
No, and No.

Dont want anything to do with Booth and his lousy contract, and there is no way in hell we are giving up Hossa for Luongo in ANY deal. Most Hawk fans dont even want to give up promising futures for Luongo let alone our 2nd best forward.
Fair enough, just spitballing anyway.

I don't think Hossa is your second most valuable forward...maybe best though like you say.

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10-03-2012, 12:17 PM
  #803
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Originally Posted by CanuckLuck View Post
You're right, there's really no CAP. It's equally as likely he shoots 7% as it is he shoots 17%.

I think it's fair to conclude Kulemin is a physical two-way 20G scorer. Very valuable player. The likelihood of Burke trading him for Luongo is pretty low.
To be fair, even if you increase his shooting percentage last year to 12% that's still 12/13 goals. But I agree in general with your assessment. 15-20 goals for him. Not an upgrade for us.

Re: Chicago. If Hossa is the number 2 forward there, then I'd be happy with whoever is deemed number 4. Either Toews, Kane, or Sharp in a deal for Luongo works for me too.

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10-03-2012, 01:00 PM
  #804
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
What does that have to do with a team having to adhere to a contract for a player no longer playing?

For example, for the 35+ clause, did it retroactively apply to contracts given to players over 35 before it happened? Of course not.
Actually, the 35+ clause was retroactively applied to contracts signed before the 2005 CBA went into effect.

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10-03-2012, 01:05 PM
  #805
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I guess it boils down to whether you think Chicago would be better off after that trade. Personally I think the upgrade in goaltending is worth the loss of firepower up front. The past two cup winners have had elite goaltenders, and the only reason why you won the cup is because you had a stacked team, as well as the fact you weren't facing good goaltending in the finals. It's almost impossible to win the cup without a good goaltender, unless you want to tank again and get loads of talent before being capstrated again.
Pittsburgh had Fleury (not elite)
Detroit had Osgood (not elite)
Anaheim had Giguere (not elite)
Carolina had Ward (wasn't elite)
etc

It's possible to win without elite goaltending, you jsut need a hot goaltender. And if Luongo was elite as you say, Vancouver would have won a cup in the past 3 or 4 years. But every season he falters at some point and it costs his team, he's not worth Hossa.

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10-03-2012, 01:16 PM
  #806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Pittsburgh had Fleury (not elite)
Detroit had Osgood (not elite)
Anaheim had Giguere (not elite)
Carolina had Ward (wasn't elite)
etc

It's possible to win without elite goaltending, you jsut need a hot goaltender. And if Luongo was elite as you say, Vancouver would have won a cup in the past 3 or 4 years. But every season he falters at some point and it costs his team, he's not worth Hossa.
Cam Ward won the Conn Smythe. Those playoffs are the only reason people see him as something more than a 15-20 goalie. Bad example.

Anaheim had Pronger and Niedermayer. Something that I don't see any team having today.

Fleury had a very strong year as solid playoff. Probably the best goalie of the bunch that you listed. Pittsburgh also had Crosby and Malkin. Something no other team in the league has the luxury or having.

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10-03-2012, 01:18 PM
  #807
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Originally Posted by Ag925 View Post
Figured some might find this funny...

Best post of this thread!




Quote:
Originally Posted by SmythesMinions View Post
Nazem Kadri is slowly turning into the Leafs version of Jordan Schroeder.....
Except Schroeder actually works out hard in the summer.

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10-03-2012, 02:47 PM
  #808
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Originally Posted by TOGuy14 View Post
Can we stop with the "Luongo will make any team he goes to an instant contender" rhetoric?

He played five seasons in Florida of very good hockey, some of it even better than he could be reasonably expected to play wherever he goes next, and they did not make the playoffs even once during his tenure there.

Luongo only makes you an automatic contender when the rest of the roster is stacked
Have you forgotten there's a salary cap in place? There's a reason every single team in the league except one has made it to the playoffs post lockout. Parity exists now.

Maybe being a Leafs fan its hard to see parity working, but back in those days teams with money ran the league. Luongo and Schneider carried Vancouver to not only the playoffs last year, but the Presidents Trophy. The team was terrible yet they finished at the top.

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10-03-2012, 02:54 PM
  #809
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Except Schroeder actually works out hard in the summer.
Guess that he wasn't on the Gary Roberts Pleasure Cruise like Kadri was.

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10-03-2012, 03:07 PM
  #810
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Cam Ward won the Conn Smythe. Those playoffs are the only reason people see him as something more than a 15-20 goalie. Bad example.

Anaheim had Pronger and Niedermayer. Something that I don't see any team having today.

Fleury had a very strong year as solid playoff. Probably the best goalie of the bunch that you listed. Pittsburgh also had Crosby and Malkin. Something no other team in the league has the luxury or having.
Cam Ward won the Conn Smythe, yes. But he was not an elite goalie or even close to it going into the playoffs. = not elite

Anaheim had a good team yes, still won a cup without an elite goalie, was my point.

Again, Pittsburgh won the cup without an elite goalie, Fleury was good, but was not elite.

You keep bringing up the players in front of those goalies, Chicago has Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, not a lot of teams have that either.

All you need is a hot goalie, not an elite one. 09-10 Hawks got to the cup final behind strong goaltending in 2 of the 4 rounds, If thje Niemi of round 1 showed up in round 2 or 3, Chicago wouldn't have won the cup.

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10-03-2012, 03:24 PM
  #811
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Guess that he wasn't on the Gary Roberts Pleasure Cruise like Kadri was.
Guess not.

I actually think he works out with Parise during the summer.

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10-03-2012, 03:28 PM
  #812
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Cam Ward won the Conn Smythe, yes. But he was not an elite goalie or even close to it going into the playoffs. = not elite

Anaheim had a good team yes, still won a cup without an elite goalie, was my point.

Again, Pittsburgh won the cup without an elite goalie, Fleury was good, but was not elite.

You keep bringing up the players in front of those goalies, Chicago has Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, not a lot of teams have that either.

All you need is a hot goalie, not an elite one. 09-10 Hawks got to the cup final behind strong goaltending in 2 of the 4 rounds, If thje Niemi of round 1 showed up in round 2 or 3, Chicago wouldn't have won the cup.
There is merit in what you are saying, but recent history is not in your favour. The last two champions did have high level goaltending. That being L.A. and Boston.

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10-03-2012, 03:30 PM
  #813
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who do people think is better

Schroeder or Kadri?

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10-03-2012, 03:36 PM
  #814
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
who do people think is better

Schroeder or Kadri?
Don't think that there is enough Leaf hate around for Kadri to lose that poll.

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10-03-2012, 03:38 PM
  #815
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Don't think that there is enough Leaf hate around for Kadri to lose that poll.
topchowda will tell you otherwise. Nazem's apparently a carbon copy of Rob Schremp.

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10-03-2012, 03:39 PM
  #816
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Don't think that there is enough Leaf hate around for Kadri to lose that poll.
Just a question, If Gillis views Schroeder as better then Kadri might not be an attractive trade target, he might go for a winger or larger center.

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10-03-2012, 03:40 PM
  #817
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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
who do people think is better

Schroeder or Kadri?
Kadri should be considered better at this point, but I think people have the wrong idea about Schroeder.

His point totals may be lower, but this may be deceiving since the teams he has played on have been low scoring. But the biggest thing that people may overlook is his improvements made away from the puck and his improved work ethic. You won't see anyone slagging his work off the ice or on it anymore, he has completely bought in to what the coaches have told him.

Schroeder may end up being the more useful player in the end as well. Kadri if he makes it will be more of an offensive threat on his own, and certainly has better hands. Schroeder if played with talented players will put up points, if not than he has shown he can play a very reliable 2 way game. In pre-season last year Schroeder looked better than Hodgson, while playing with lesser linemates.

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10-03-2012, 03:56 PM
  #818
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in a heart beat id trade that useless kid faster then Cherry changes is suits

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10-03-2012, 03:56 PM
  #819
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People sure love to crap all over Luongo and it surprisingly seems to be coming from both sides in this argument. Yes, his deal isn't great, but he's still an above average goalie meaning he'd be an upgrade for at least half the league, especially Toronto. Consider the uncertainty the Leafs have in net right now with two completely unproven goalies. As much as the Leafs may need Gunnarson, there's no way he helps that team more than Luongo would in place of Reimer. Even if there was another defenseman from Toronto that was a better fit for both sides on the trade, Burke would be crazy to not take that deal.

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10-03-2012, 03:59 PM
  #820
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Originally Posted by TheLeastOfTheBunch View Post
topchowda will tell you otherwise. Nazem's apparently a carbon copy of Rob Schremp.
Always thought that was funny. Kadri carried the Knights on his back for one season while Schremp was only ever a PP specialist.

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10-03-2012, 04:41 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Pittsburgh had Fleury (not elite)
Detroit had Osgood (not elite)
Anaheim had Giguere (not elite)
Carolina had Ward (wasn't elite)
etc

It's possible to win without elite goaltending, you jsut need a hot goaltender. And if Luongo was elite as you say, Vancouver would have won a cup in the past 3 or 4 years. But every season he falters at some point and it costs his team, he's not worth Hossa.
from 02-03 to about 2009 he sure was.

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10-03-2012, 04:50 PM
  #822
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Cam Ward won the Conn Smythe, yes. But he was not an elite goalie or even close to it going into the playoffs. = not elite

Anaheim had a good team yes, still won a cup without an elite goalie, was my point.

Again, Pittsburgh won the cup without an elite goalie, Fleury was good, but was not elite.

You keep bringing up the players in front of those goalies, Chicago has Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp, Keith, Seabrook, not a lot of teams have that either.

All you need is a hot goalie, not an elite one. 09-10 Hawks got to the cup final behind strong goaltending in 2 of the 4 rounds, If thje Niemi of round 1 showed up in round 2 or 3, Chicago wouldn't have won the cup.
So what you're saying is teams should just hope their goalie goes on fire? If so the Leafs are taking the right approach. With the parity, I think goalies are becoming more and more important.

Conference finalists the last 2 seasons had:

Quick ( cup)
Brodeur ( finals)
Lundqvist
Smith

Thomas ( cup)
Luongo ( finals)
Niemi
Roloson

Not only were Quick and Thomas elite, they were also lights out. Neither of them were carrying the favorite team either. With teams being so even, a goalie can make a huge difference now.

Chicago had a deadly team when they won the cup. Why did they have to gut that team? After your ETC's ran out, the fun was over.

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10-03-2012, 05:08 PM
  #823
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
from 02-03 to about 2009 he sure was.
1.97 gaa
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In 06/07

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10-03-2012, 05:13 PM
  #824
Vankiller Whale
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Actually, the 35+ clause was retroactively applied to contracts signed before the 2005 CBA went into effect.
Did not know that. Thank you.

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10-03-2012, 05:19 PM
  #825
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Originally Posted by Lundface View Post
Kadri should be considered better at this point, but I think people have the wrong idea about Schroeder.

His point totals may be lower, but this may be deceiving since the teams he has played on have been low scoring. But the biggest thing that people may overlook is his improvements made away from the puck and his improved work ethic. You won't see anyone slagging his work off the ice or on it anymore, he has completely bought in to what the coaches have told him.

Schroeder may end up being the more useful player in the end as well. Kadri if he makes it will be more of an offensive threat on his own, and certainly has better hands. Schroeder if played with talented players will put up points, if not than he has shown he can play a very reliable 2 way game. In pre-season last year Schroeder looked better than Hodgson, while playing with lesser linemates.
What an odd point to make, and not really a selling point as Kadri would very likely put up much more points in the same situation...

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