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Lockout Fallout (MOD: blow up roster or what if season lost?)

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Old
09-22-2012, 08:55 PM
  #1
CommanderShepard15
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Lockout Fallout (MOD: blow up roster or what if season lost?)

if this entire season is lost, should we throw in the towel and deal off pieces like boyle who are old and may have lost a step due to the lockout or try one last kick at the can?

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09-22-2012, 09:13 PM
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I don't see why Boyle would lose a step by taking the year off. If anything, I'd think he'd be better after the rest. It does suck losing 1 year of Couture and Pavelski's contracts.

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09-27-2012, 10:13 AM
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do players lose a year on their contracts if the entire year is lost? I don't recall what happened last time ...

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09-27-2012, 10:29 AM
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Yes. I think that this year is (was?) our last year. I know everyone considers 13-14 to be the end of the window, but realistically, how effective if 37-year-old Dan Boyle going to be? If we do lose the whole season, we can only hope the Hockey Gods smile upon us like they did last time and grant us a top-10 pick, and then start selling guys at the trade deadline for tons of futures.

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09-27-2012, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighthock View Post
do players lose a year on their contracts if the entire year is lost? I don't recall what happened last time ...
As far as I understand; yes. This "lost" year still counts as a year on the contracts.

So, going into the next "offseason", Clowe, Handzus, Murray and Greiss will all be UFAs. Demers, Desi and Galiardi are RFAs. We might never see guys like Clowe suit up in teal again.

Then, if that news wasn't shocking enough, DW will have his work cut out for him as after next season, Joe, Patty, Pavs, Couture and Boyle will be finished their current contracts.

Basically, my point is that we're inevitably in for changes. Soon.

That said, if there is a shortened season rather than a full cancelled season, you have to think that this extra time off would help our (aging) squad.

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09-27-2012, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by RammsteinGT View Post
As far as I understand; yes. This "lost" year still counts as a year on the contracts.

So, going into the next "offseason", Clowe, Handzus, Murray and Greiss will all be UFAs. Demers, Desi and Galiardi are RFAs. We might never see guys like Clowe suit up in teal again.

Then, if that news wasn't shocking enough, DW will have his work cut out for him as after next season, Joe, Patty, Pavs, Couture and Boyle will be finished their current contracts.

Basically, my point is that we're inevitably in for changes. Soon.

That said, if there is a shortened season rather than a full cancelled season, you have to think that this extra time off would help our (aging) squad.
Problem is the top aging player on the sharks, the one who doesnt actually have a replacement on the team as we speak is still playing games during the lockout.

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09-27-2012, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by RammsteinGT View Post
As far as I understand; yes. This "lost" year still counts as a year on the contracts.

So, going into the next "offseason", Clowe, Handzus, Murray and Greiss will all be UFAs. Demers, Desi and Galiardi are RFAs. We might never see guys like Clowe suit up in teal again.

Then, if that news wasn't shocking enough, DW will have his work cut out for him as after next season, Joe, Patty, Pavs, Couture and Boyle will be finished their current contracts.

Basically, my point is that we're inevitably in for changes. Soon.

That said, if there is a shortened season rather than a full cancelled season, you have to think that this extra time off would help our (aging) squad.
Supposedly, the org wants to re-sign Clowe. I wonder if Greiss will be retained. Handzus won't, Murray probably won't.

It would help if we had any major injuries to heal from. But we don't.

Personally, I'm fed up to the point of advocating a total rebuild.

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09-27-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
Problem is the top aging player on the sharks, the one who doesnt actually have a replacement on the team as we speak is still playing games during the lockout.
I'm not terribly concerned about that. He's essentially living at his summer home and putting up 4 points a game on a small schedule with his buddy on large ice. But I do see your point.

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09-27-2012, 11:14 AM
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Supposedly, the org wants to re-sign Clowe. I wonder if Greiss will be retained. Handzus won't, Murray probably won't.

It would help if we had any major injuries to heal from. But we don't.

Personally, I'm fed up to the point of advocating a total rebuild.
Greiss will be gone, but not because the org doesn't like him; they need to make room for those who are NHL-ready and have shown greater upside.

I agree, I see Clowe being retained. His type doesn't come around very often, and the fact that he got an "A" over someone like Pavs tells us a lot. Let's brace ourselves for a Havlat-esque contract, though.

As for the re-build, I wager that the first few months of the 13-14 schedule will determine much of the franchise's direction. Selling off Boyle and Marleau could sure help with recruiting talent to play with #'s 8 & 39.

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09-27-2012, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by RammsteinGT View Post
Greiss will be gone, but not because the org doesn't like him; they need to make room for those who are NHL-ready and have shown greater upside.

I agree, I see Clowe being retained. His type doesn't come around very often, and the fact that he got an "A" over someone like Pavs tells us a lot. Let's brace ourselves for a Havlat-esque contract, though.

As for the re-build, I wager that the first few months of the 13-14 schedule will determine much of the franchise's direction. Selling off Boyle and Marleau could sure help with recruiting talent to play with #'s 8 & 39.
Yeah, Greiss doesn't really have a place in the org once Stalock is healthy and back on track (which he seems to be). I wonder if he'll be traded for a decent pick. I think Ben Bishop got a 2nd round pick from Ottawa, maybe we could get a 3rd for Ein.

Clowe's going downhill fast. He's falling apart, he can't skate, he's King Giveaway, I honestly think we should trade him now.

You're looking at a retool (keeping Thornton). I'm looking at a total rebuild. Like Tank-for-McDavid kind of rebuild. Selling off Thornton, Marleau, Boyle, Clowe, Murray, Havlat, etc.

We've gotten some solid offers for those guys from fans on HF. I mean, Murray for a late 2nd, sure. But we've gotten Teravainen+ for Marleau, Paajarvi+ for Boyle, Grigorenko++ for Thornton. Those types of deals would give me a lot of faith in this organization. In my opinion, the window is closed.

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09-27-2012, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
You're looking at a retool (keeping Thornton). I'm looking at a total rebuild. Like Tank-for-McDavid kind of rebuild. Selling off Thornton, Marleau, Boyle, Clowe, Murray, Havlat, etc.

We've gotten some solid offers for those guys from fans on HF. I mean, Murray for a late 2nd, sure. But we've gotten Teravainen+ for Marleau, Paajarvi+ for Boyle, Grigorenko++ for Thornton. Those types of deals would give me a lot of faith in this organization. In my opinion, the window is closed.
I'm looking at a re-tool, because a re-tool is what will happen. Full-on tank mode won't sit well with ownership, and Jumbo is their golden boy. While I partially agree with you that a re-build is the better way to go, I'm simply playing to what I believe the reality of the situation is.

As it stands now, I don't think a division title is likely (let alone a Cup) which is why I'd like to dump some of our aging assets (Boyle & Marleau) for young help at forward. Personally, I think Boyle is excellent even at his age, but the return he'd garner is necessary, the cap savings are ideal and I think we have a decent blue-line even without him due to depth. As for Marleau, while I see his value, it's my opinion that you just don't build a winner with him. Thornton, sure. But Patty just doesn't have the passion or leadership that I want to see on my top lines.

I've needed a good Sharks chat for a while...

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09-27-2012, 12:10 PM
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I'm looking at a re-tool, because a re-tool is what will happen. Full-on tank mode won't sit well with ownership, and Jumbo is their golden boy. While I partially agree with you that a re-build is the better way to go, I'm simply playing to what I believe the reality of the situation is.

As it stands now, I don't think a division title is likely (let alone a Cup) which is why I'd like to dump some of our aging assets (Boyle & Marleau) for young help at forward. Personally, I think Boyle is excellent even at his age, but the return he'd garner is necessary, the cap savings are ideal and I think we have a decent blue-line even without him due to depth. As for Marleau, while I see his value, it's my opinion that you just don't build a winner with him. Thornton, sure. But Patty just doesn't have the passion or leadership that I want to see on my top lines.

I've needed a good Sharks chat for a while...
Why chain Thornton to a team that's not going to win? If you deal Boyle and Marleau, who's to say that Thornton doesn't demand out? He loves the Sharks (or so I gather), but he also really wants to win a Cup, and it doesn't seem fair to keep him hear on a re-tooling team. Realistically, we probably aren't going to get a return for Marleau and Boyle that will be able to contribute while Thornton is still in his prime. I want Joe to win a Cup somewhere, even if it's not here.

Does ownership want to see us become Calgary? A team who is constantly middling, the perpetual 9th seed, never making the playoffs, never getting a top-10 pick, handing out $5.5M contracts to Denis Wideman, drafting the likes of Mark Jankowski? Because that's what's going to happen if we don't eventually rebuild. Trading Thornton and co. for picks and prospects means that we'd have a much shorter rebuild time than if we let JT/PM/DB just trail off. And we might finally be able to get elite talent through the draft.

You build a winner by drafting top-10 picks. Toews/Kane, Crosby/Malkin, Kopitar/Doughty, Getzlaf/Perry (the entire 2003 first round was top-10 caliber), etc. This team is not a Cup-caliber team, and won't be with Couture or a 40-year-old Thornton as our best player, plain and simple.

Just my two cents. I two need Sharks talk, I'm bored out of my mind.

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09-27-2012, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Why chain Thornton to a team that's not going to win? If you deal Boyle and Marleau, who's to say that Thornton doesn't demand out? He loves the Sharks (or so I gather), but he also really wants to win a Cup, and it doesn't seem fair to keep him hear on a re-tooling team.

You build a winner by drafting top-10 picks. Toews/Kane, Crosby/Malkin, Kopitar/Doughty, Getzlaf/Perry (the entire 2003 first round was top-10 caliber), etc. This team is not a Cup-caliber team, and won't be with Couture or a 40-year-old Thornton as our best player, plain and simple.

Just my two cents. I two need Sharks talk, I'm bored out of my mind.
I just don't see Thornton wanting out unless we're absolutely in the dumpster for a couple seasons. Even if Patty & Boyle were dealt, I bet he'd give it a shot to see what happens in the short term.

Heck, who knows? Maybe we even re-tool on the fly like Ottawa has done and Joe plays out his career like Alfie. They've got a promising team that (aside from 2011) hasn't drafted a whole lot in the first few picks. All it takes is one steal in a draft where we typically pick (15-25) like a Karlsson or Giroux and this discussion takes a dramatic shift for the better. Couture was an excellent pick and perhaps Hertl will be just as good.

Basically, DW is going to have to earn his pay in the next 3 years. By 2015, I wager we will barely recognize our team.

Oh, and another thought: the hiring of Larry Robinson could be a god-send. He was (in my opinion) one of the most important moves this franchise has made since we won the President's trophy. That said, this is all speculation, but I think the tandem of he and McLellan running the show could be incredible.

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09-27-2012, 12:39 PM
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I just don't see Thornton wanting out unless we're absolutely in the dumpster for a couple seasons. Even if Patty & Boyle were dealt, I bet he'd give it a shot to see what happens in the short term.

Heck, who knows? Maybe we even re-tool on the fly like Ottawa has done and Joe plays out his career like Alfie. They've got a promising team that (aside from 2011) hasn't drafted a whole lot in the first few picks. All it takes is one steal in a draft where we typically pick (15-25) like a Karlsson or Giroux and this discussion takes a dramatic shift for the better. Couture was an excellent pick and perhaps Hertl will be just as good.

Basically, DW is going to have to earn his pay in the next 3 years. By 2015, I wager we will barely recognize our team.

Oh, and another thought: the hiring of Larry Robinson could be a god-send. He was (in my opinion) one of the most important moves this franchise has made since we won the President's trophy. That said, this is all speculation, but I think the tandem of he and McLellan running the show could be incredible.
Joe isn't stupid. If Marleau and Boyle are traded, he knows that the team isn't putting in an honest effort to win a Cup. If you're 34 y/o Joe Thornton and you want to win a Cup, that isn't a team you wanna be on.

Ottawa is the exception, not the rule. Drafting Karlssons and Girouxs is so exceedingly rare, those are the only two worth naming (don't bring up Eberle with me). Re-tools take time. It could be 4-6 more years before the team is ready to compete again, even if it's just a retool, not a rebuild. That puts Thornton at almost age 40. It's not worth it keeping Joe through a re-tool to give him maybe 1-2 shots at a Cup with the Sharks. Better to send him somewhere with a young and improving supporting cast, like Buffalo or St. Louis, where he can actually win a Cup. The Sharks owe him that much.

I like the Robinson move too, but I'm not sure he's the answer to all of our problems. Only time will tell on that one.

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09-27-2012, 12:39 PM
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Send Bettman a gift for his hat-trick lockout!
http://poopsenders.com/order/

Seriously though, Marleau, Havlat, Clowe and hate to say it, Boyle could be moved. (duh, hate to say it for all our vets ) If that happens might as well let Thornton go too, just like Juxtaposer mentioned. Wait any longer and we'll see the Sharks turn out like the Detroit Red Wings of recent. Many Vets on the team but they keep losing out of the playoffs. Teams like the Oilers, due to there youth&talent, are going to be very dominate in the coming seasons.


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09-27-2012, 01:36 PM
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As far as I understand; yes. This "lost" year still counts as a year on the contracts.
Not necessarily. The CBA negotiation will determine if years are burned off contracts if the lockout goes for a year or more.

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09-27-2012, 01:42 PM
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If we lose a whole season, I vote we just go all out and get as many top free agents as possible. Go all out because we know it's going to blow up soon. Grab Iginla as a UFA on a cheap 1 year deal to play with his draft class rivals?

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09-27-2012, 01:52 PM
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If we lose a whole season, I vote we just go all out and get as many top free agents as possible. Go all out because we know it's going to blow up soon. Grab Iginla as a UFA on a cheap 1 year deal to play with his draft class rivals?
I think the UFA's might have something to say about that.

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09-27-2012, 03:19 PM
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Whether we lose the whole season or not, I say move JT, Boyle, Clowe, and Murray ASAP if we can get good assets. JT because I want to see him win a Cup and don't think he will in SJ, and because I think he'll net the greatest return.

Do a re-tool, not a rebuild, IMO. I'm just in favor of re-tooling around different parts than some others.

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09-27-2012, 04:02 PM
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It would've been cool to see what would've happened with a year of a healthy Havlat. Stuart added to the D helping out on the PK with Robininson teaching the Devils tricks of the trade.

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09-28-2012, 10:01 PM
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Well he's what id do given that the lost year counts as a contract year.

UFAs
- Clowe, depends on what he does in the off NHL season. He's a bigger player and they generally need to play to keep their skill sharp. If he plays at least 40 games some place, i'd resign him as he's our only real power forward. I'm not prepared to discuss the contracts cap or term would be.
- Handzus, let go via UFA.
- Murray, Clowe and worse on needing to play as a big guy. I'm really on the fence but am leaning towards let him go as a UFA unless we can get something for him. The new NHL is a speed game which he'll never have enough of with all due respect to his skills an talents. I'll agree that he's a smart player, plays position well, etc. No way to make up for lack of speed/quickness.
- Greiss, While i believe he's a solid NHL back up, it's not clear if he has upside from there. If Stalock or another goal tending prospect is ready for NHL duty next season,
id let him go via UFA unless we can get something for him. Only way i'd keep him is if Stalock or ?? just are not NHL ready for next season.

RFAs
- Demers, if he appears to continue to develop while playing this non NHL season, i'd sign him.
- Desi, hope he plays someplace. He's still a role / fringe player in the NHL. If he plays and continues to develop sign him to a cheap 2 way deal.
- Galiardi, he's kind of a project player for us. He really needs to play and re-gain his offensive confidence (see Jamie McGinn!) during this non NHL season. If he does, i'd sign him again to a 1 year deal.

Whats Next!
Given that DW was not able to really make any improvements to the core forwards this past off season and that the core group will have a year on their contracts it's time to make some changes. I really think DW should have made 2 changes to the top 9 forwards this past season. I think he'll need to make them and perhaps another 1 or 2 to keep the team competitive. We'll need younger, faster, skilled, puck control players for the current NHL model of success.

Good News
We have some interesting prospects whos games will develop and grow with the W Sharks this season. Hamilton, Groude, Tarasov, Oleksuk, etc. as AHL players as well as NCAA, CHL, etc. prospects will all be 1 year closer to playing in the NHL. What are the odds that some number of these develop and look really ready for the NHL next season? One or two players perhaps, if we are lucky could take those needed forward spots. They could mix well into the top 9 forward positions.

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09-28-2012, 10:34 PM
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Tarasov and Gourde aren't our prospects. And even without them, you have a very broad sense of the word "interesting".

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09-28-2012, 11:17 PM
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Tarasov and Gourde aren't our prospects. And even without them, you have a very broad sense of the word "interesting".
I know they are on AHL contracts, which does not make them Sharks prospects, technically. If they start to look good i'm sure they will get new contracts from the Sharks. And, yea i have a broad sense of "interesting" as it's the preseason, the time for optimistic thinking for prospects (no NHL hockey!!). For these two; 1) i'll be interested if either can make the W Sharks team, and 2) if they can stay in the line up and actually produce or show that they belong there.

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09-28-2012, 11:29 PM
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Have I made it clear that the Hertl is our savior and will be the face of the new NHL?!?

Give us the cup nowz! mmmk

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09-28-2012, 11:55 PM
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Have I made it clear that the Hertl is our savior and will be the face of the new NHL?!?

Give us the cup nowz! mmmk
Ok with me. Hope he has a great year and is playing in North America next season.

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