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When will this lockout end? (all lockout talk here)

View Poll Results: When will the lockout end?
Sometime between Oct-nov 49 18.08%
Sometime between Dec-jan 90 33.21%
Season canceled 132 48.71%
Voters: 271. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
11-03-2012, 12:49 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
That's what I thought, just wanted to make sure. That's fair. Cant say I have a burning desire to support the product by attending live games either.
Me and my Dad bought a flex pack this year, can't say we'll be doing it again any time soon.

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11-03-2012, 01:02 PM
  #752
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I feel like the only hockey fan in the world who doesn't take this personally.

I'll be excited when it's back, and my habits will not change one iota.
And that is your prerogative. I don't want another lockout in 6-7 years and a significant drop in revenue is the only way to make sure that doesn't happen.

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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
Question for every one. Again Fehr said the other day that NHL was willing to keep playing. I am surprised that the NHL doesn't call the NHLPA out on this more as a bluff. They keep saying it but was that even a option?? is there any remote way they could have played with out a CBA? I mean janitors aren't legally allowed to work with out a contract. From what I understand it is essentially legally impossible. Does any one bleive it is anything more than a giant bluff to win fans over?
They could have played again under the old CBA rules. But it is a smoke screen. Fehr pulled that with MLB as well, played most of the year and then shut down the season before the playoffs. Baseball still hasn't recovered fully from that.


Last edited by s7ark: 11-03-2012 at 01:07 PM.
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11-03-2012, 01:09 PM
  #753
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In my opinion, Donald Fehr has no genuine desire to get a deal done.

I would be shocked if we see hockey this season.

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11-03-2012, 01:13 PM
  #754
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And that is your prerogative. I don't want another lockout in 6-7 years and a significant drop in revenue is the only way to make sure that doesn't happen.



They could have played again under the old CBA rules. But it is a smoke screen. Fehr pulled that with MLB as well, played most of the year and then shut down the season before the playoffs. Baseball still hasn't recovered fully from that.
I didn't realize that was Fehr, that was terrible, way better to miss the start of a year than shut a season down. playing the first part and missing the playoffs is a huge crime. I can see it now, the idea being that once the season is going the owners will cave. IT is just a huge smoke screen. I didn't even realize it was legally possible, but I guess it technically is.

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11-03-2012, 01:30 PM
  #755
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In my opinion, Donald Fehr has no genuine desire to get a deal done.

I would be shocked if we see hockey this season.
Agree 100% with the bolded.
Fehr has no interest in getting a deal done for the sake of the game, and he doesn't care about the fans interest at all. And lets face it, we as the fans, are the group that is really suffering.

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I didn't realize that was Fehr, that was terrible, way better to miss the start of a year than shut a season down. playing the first part and missing the playoffs is a huge crime. I can see it now, the idea being that once the season is going the owners will cave. IT is just a huge smoke screen. I didn't even realize it was legally possible, but I guess it technically is.
This was an incredibly shady tactic because it ensured that all the MLB players made their full yearly salary, and the owners all missed out on the insane $$$ that the World Series brings in.

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11-03-2012, 01:50 PM
  #756
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Agree 100% with the bolded.
Fehr has no interest in getting a deal done for the sake of the game, and he doesn't care about the fans interest at all. And lets face it, we as the fans, are the group that is really suffering.
To be fair to Fehr, neither does Bettman. The leaders of both sides are only concerned with "winning" for the sake of their legacy. And they'll let the NHL burn to the ground around them in order to do so.

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11-03-2012, 02:16 PM
  #757
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And that is your prerogative. I don't want another lockout in 6-7 years and a significant drop in revenue is the only way to make sure that doesn't happen.



They could have played again under the old CBA rules. But it is a smoke screen. Fehr pulled that with MLB as well, played most of the year and then shut down the season before the playoffs. Baseball still hasn't recovered fully from that.
The NHLPA pulled that one off in the 90's as well, threatening to go on strike after nearly a full season of paychecks, forcing the owners to cave to get the playoffs in. From that day forward, you can bet the owners said there is no way they would ever start playing another season without a CBA in place and lose every bit of bargaining power they had.

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11-03-2012, 02:27 PM
  #758
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To be fair to Fehr, neither does Bettman. The leaders of both sides are only concerned with "winning" for the sake of their legacy. And they'll let the NHL burn to the ground around them in order to do so.
I agree, I think the big question is who has more influence over who they represent and is using that to their own ends more. Well I think Bettman does have some influnece over the owners. I am coming to believe Fehr has much more influence over the players. I think Bettman is given a pretty strict directive from the owners as to what he needs to accomplish for the league to be viable. I think Fehr is manipulating the players a lot more. the players are a much bigger and easier to influence group.

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11-03-2012, 03:23 PM
  #759
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To be fair to Fehr, neither does Bettman. The leaders of both sides are only concerned with "winning" for the sake of their legacy. And they'll let the NHL burn to the ground around them in order to do so.
With all due respect, that's utter nonsense.

If Bettman cared about his "legacy", there wouldn't be a third lockout in his reign and it would bother him more than every time he does anything public, he gets booed out of the building. A lot of what he does goes against "fan" interest for the betterment of the business from the owners perspective. He's their lawyer, and he's good at it - that's his perspective on the matter.

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11-03-2012, 03:37 PM
  #760
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Usually once we get secret locations, it's a sign that real negotiations are going to take place.

The next step is secret meetings and prolonged negotiating sessions, which I expect to happen within the next two weeks.

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11-03-2012, 04:03 PM
  #761
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With all due respect, that's utter nonsense.

If Bettman cared about his "legacy", there wouldn't be a third lockout in his reign and it would bother him more than every time he does anything public, he gets booed out of the building. A lot of what he does goes against "fan" interest for the betterment of the business from the owners perspective. He's their lawyer, and he's good at it - that's his perspective on the matter.
Is it nonsense? For Bettman legacy meant how the owners see him. He'll be the guy that broke the union and under whom revenues skyrocketed. That's what Bettman cares about. Not whether the fans like him. Same with Fehr.

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11-03-2012, 04:13 PM
  #762
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Only way a deal gets done is if Fehr is put under pressure by the NHLPA members, otherwise I don't believe Fehr has any intention of negotiating a settlement, he has been nothing but obstructive.

Not a fan of Bettman either, he is a weasel but I think he he negotiating based on the owners instructions. Fehr on the other hand has his own agenda.

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11-03-2012, 04:38 PM
  #763
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Is it nonsense? For Bettman legacy meant how the owners see him. He'll be the guy that broke the union and under whom revenues skyrocketed. That's what Bettman cares about. Not whether the fans like him. Same with Fehr.
Well, yes. Bettman cares about doing his job to the best of his ability.

I don't see the point in applying some weird personal motivation over it, because that's not apparent. He knows the owners can wait out the players, and as long as the players are being this stubborn, the only reason he has to negotiate or concede at all is for the fans.

Fehr, I suspect, has marching orders. He doesn't need a legacy win, he'll always be the guy who crushed the MLB (and, IMO, that victory is the reason that sport has suffered from disparity ever since).

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11-03-2012, 04:44 PM
  #764
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I feel like the only hockey fan in the world who doesn't take this personally.

I'll be excited when it's back, and my habits will not change one iota.
Last time out I reacted and made subsequent decisions not to continue to support high ticket prices of the Edmonton Oilers. Out of principal I can't see spending my money on this financially out of control product.

That hasn't changed. The new lockout, and refusal of players to accept terms makes me even less likely to want to pay to support them in the future.

But that aside there doesn't need to be any reaction, or reactivity, or emotion, for the NHL to lose market share in these lockouts. All that it requires is people essentially forgettting to care about the product, turn to other entertainment products, or simply find something else to do with their time which then perhaps becomes their new ingrained behavior.

What the NHL, and NHLPA are engaging in is dangerous behavior for a league that is already highly leveraged, that has owners with many new arena's and massive debtload, and has few teams already that are quoting any kind of operating profit. The NHL is by its nature not can't miss entertainment in many of its markets. It is on the otherhand surpassed by several other sports in several of its markets. It could easily become more irrelevant than it already is in many of those markets and even those that are presently considered as solid hockey markets.

By not having, or producing a product, its easy for the consumer to learn not to consume the product. Now, or in the future.

I can think of few if any business models that would be comfortable with such moratoriums on not producing a product.

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11-03-2012, 05:15 PM
  #765
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I'm definitely going to avoid buying anything NHL wise. I wanted to get a Yakupov or RNH t-shirt, not going to do that anymore. I used to buy Oilers lighters every time I went to 7-11, not doing that anymore. I used to go to 2-3 games a year, and buy $30 of beer each time, not doing that anymore. I used to run across the street to buy stuff from Rexall during breaks at work, not doing that anymore.

It's not even that I'm especially bitter, I will still watch the games, it is just that they have made enough of a stink of the whole situation that I've lost any motivation to give them even a dime anymore.It will have a bit of a 1994 baseball strike effect on me. I will still be interested in the sport but I really don't feel like supporting the people that run the NHL anymore, especially our own owner Katz.

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11-03-2012, 05:29 PM
  #766
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To be fair to Fehr, neither does Bettman. The leaders of both sides are only concerned with "winning" for the sake of their legacy. And they'll let the NHL burn to the ground around them in order to do so.
I dunno. It seems like the league is doing more to get the lockout ended. Every time we see something positive (like the make whole concession from yesterday) we are treated to Fehr doing his best debbie downer impression.

The PA isn't working as actively to end the lockout, in my opinion.

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11-03-2012, 05:36 PM
  #767
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Originally Posted by Replacement View Post
Last time out I reacted and made subsequent decisions not to continue to support high ticket prices of the Edmonton Oilers. Out of principal I can't see spending my money on this financially out of control product.

That hasn't changed. The new lockout, and refusal of players to accept terms makes me even less likely to want to pay to support them in the future.
It did change. It changed dramatically. Massive rollbacks, revenue sharing, a hard cap at 39M - they wrangled salaries but good. The best players making $5-6M per - where a complimentary "star" like Doug Weight could make 9M+ in the old system.

It just broke itself again with unprecedented (and unpredicted) revenue growth. Which both weakens the argument against using a lockout as a tool for restructuring the market and weakens the rhetoric that a lockout hurts the bottom line long term.

The last one was, in hindsight, unquestionably good for the game of hockey.

Quote:
But that aside there doesn't need to be any reaction, or reactivity, or emotion, for the NHL to lose market share in these lockouts. All that it requires is people essentially forgettting to care about the product, turn to other entertainment products, or simply find something else to do with their time which then perhaps becomes their new ingrained behavior.

What the NHL, and NHLPA are engaging in is dangerous behavior for a league that is already highly leveraged, that has owners with many new arena's and massive debtload, and has few teams already that are quoting any kind of operating profit. The NHL is by its nature not can't miss entertainment in many of its markets. It is on the otherhand surpassed by several other sports in several of its markets. It could easily become more irrelevant than it already is in many of those markets and even those that are presently considered as solid hockey markets.

By not having, or producing a product, its easy for the consumer to learn not to consume the product. Now, or in the future.

I can think of few if any business models that would be comfortable with such moratoriums on not producing a product.
I don't doubt that there's something to your "out of sight, out of mind" argument, but I have one big issue with it. The people who are making threats are hardcore fans and will likely return to the product en masse. The other kind, the more casual fans who may find other products are easily replaced or lured back with a competitive product or a strong marketing hook.

If you're telling me that when Sam Gagner has an eight point game (or something comparable) that people will still be thinking about an annoying past labor dispute (as opposed to the next game), I'm kind of doubting it.

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I dunno. It seems like the league is doing more to get the lockout ended. Every time we see something positive (like the make whole concession from yesterday) we are treated to Fehr doing his best debbie downer impression.

The PA isn't working as actively to end the lockout, in my opinion.
I find it very interesting that players were on a conference call today, instructing the Fehr brothers to focus on negotiations and not working the media. This, after the Fehr brothers attempted to refute Dreger's report about the owners informal offer in a semantics filled media release.

It sounds like there's vocal frustration among the players about how the Fehr brothers are handling this right now.

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11-03-2012, 05:48 PM
  #768
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The people who are making threats are hardcore fans and will likely return to the product en masse. The other kind, the more casual fans who may find other products are easily replaced or lured back with a competitive product or a strong marketing hook.
It's another sport, and not a perfect comparison, but there can be incredible consequences for a strike. The Blue Jays averaged 50,000 or just shy of that once they moved into the sky dome. After the 1994 strike they have averaged about 25,000. A few years the attendance averaged in the low 30,000s but most were in the 20,000s and even one was as low as 18,000. The strike pretty much cut their attendance in half, and even though the sentiments against the strike have partially or largely gone away, they just haven't been able to keep the momentum they once had.

The Yankees of course rebounded as the Leafs or Canadiens (or Oilers) always will, but some markets are going to be devastated by a second strike in such a short span.

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11-03-2012, 05:53 PM
  #769
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It's another sport, and not a perfect comparison, but there can be incredible consequences for a strike. The Blue Jays averaged 50,000 or just shy of that once they moved into the sky dome. After the 1994 strike they have averaged about 25,000. A few years the attendance averaged in the low 30,000s but most were in the 20,000s and even one was as low as 18,000. The strike pretty much cut their attendance in half, and even though the sentiments against the strike have partially or largely gone away, they just haven't been able to keep the momentum they once had.

The Yankees of course rebounded as the Leafs or Canadiens (or Oilers) always will, but some markets are going to be devastated by a second strike in such a short span.
i think the obvious counter-argument (and likely the truth) is that the jays won 2 world series and had lots of fans at the games... they haven't won anything since, and therefore don't have as many fans at the games... this is pretty obvious no?

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11-03-2012, 05:53 PM
  #770
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It's another sport, and not a perfect comparison, but there can be incredible consequences for a strike. The Blue Jays averaged 50,000 or just shy of that once they moved into the sky dome. After the 1994 strike they have averaged at about 25,000. A few years in the 30,000s but most in the 20,000s and even one at 18,000. That strike pretty much cut their fan base in half.
The Blue Jays were the top team in their division, coming off two championship wins prior to that lockout. They were last in their division the year after, and haven't won much of anything since. Basically, it's hard to blame a work stoppage entirely (or even primarily).

The MLB strike is a unique beast in and of itself. The result of the strike damaged the game tremendously, and has created huge disparity. The NHL's post-2005 lockout success has come on the back of a level of parity that other sports can't claim.

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11-03-2012, 06:03 PM
  #771
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I find it very interesting that players were on a conference call today, instructing the Fehr brothers to focus on negotiations and not working the media. This, after the Fehr brothers attempted to refute Dreger's report about the owners informal offer in a semantics filled media release.

It sounds like there's vocal frustration among the players about how the Fehr brothers are handling this right now.
Yeah, it sounds like the players are getting sick of the cat and mouse going on.
Fehr told them all this morning via a public memo to take a verbal offer with a grain of salt. The media was quick to point out that the PA's offer to come down to 50/50 was a verbal offer.

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11-03-2012, 06:06 PM
  #772
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Actually the Blue Jays had very good attendance before their world series wins. In 1989, 1990, and 1991 they averaged just shy of 50,000 and then they did the same in the years that they did win in 1992 and 1993. It was just one season removed (1995) from their world series win that their attendance dropped dramatically.

Also they couldn't have averaged 50,000 before 1989 because they played in a small stadium, but even then averaged higher than they do now going back to about 1985.

The reason the Jays haven't had success is because their owners aren't willing to have an above average payroll due to low attendances. There is no denying that the Blue Jays took a huge hit because of that strike.

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11-03-2012, 06:55 PM
  #773
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Actually the Blue Jays had very good attendance before their world series wins. In 1989, 1990, and 1991 they averaged just shy of 50,000 and then they did the same in the years that they did win in 1992 and 1993. It was just one season removed (1995) from their world series win that their attendance dropped dramatically.

Also they couldn't have averaged 50,000 before 1989 because they played in a small stadium, but even then averaged higher than they do now going back to about 1985.

The reason the Jays haven't had success is because their owners aren't willing to have an above average payroll due to low attendances. There is no denying that the Blue Jays took a huge hit because of that strike.
The 1995 team was the worst Blue Jays team over that time period, though.

And while I agree the strike damaged the Jays, the result of the strike was many times worse for the sport than the work stoppage itself.


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11-03-2012, 09:34 PM
  #774
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By Tuesday, all NHL players will be heading back to their teams. Good to see these difficult times almost over.
I like the optimism but I'd say by the end of the month hopefully

@Real_ESPNLeBrun: I wouldn't read anything into it either way but Bill Daly and Steve Fehr still meeting ...

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11-03-2012, 10:07 PM
  #775
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