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Old
10-04-2012, 02:31 PM
  #1
Houston Red Winger
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The Lockout

Now that the first 82 games of the season have been cancelled, I am walking out on the NHL. Only sport I really watched (and loved). I said if they spit on us fans again like this, to mention nothing of what they are doing to the tens of thousands of people whose livelihoods depend on the NHL, I am giving up on hockey. NHL, that is - might see some non-NHL games this year.

Good bye, NHL!

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10-04-2012, 02:36 PM
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Did you intend for your topic title to be slightly misleading if someone read it the wrong way?

Anyway.............not surprised. Players think that holding out will help them get a better deal in the long run. They are very, very wrong.

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10-04-2012, 03:23 PM
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Incredibly misleading, seriously don't do that...

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10-04-2012, 06:26 PM
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Here's the thing that really annoys me: the owners have gone the lockout route three times now and the previous two times they signed off on a new deal believing it would solve all their financial problems. So they obviously have no freaking idea how to come up with a viable economic model. Every single time the labor deal ended the past three times they have to go back with their hands out to the players because they have no idea what it will take to make their league successful.

If they can't figure out how to run their business I honestly don't give a crap. Keep locking the players out and eroding interest in the game and then wonder why so many of your franchises completely suck ass and so few people follow and support the sport.

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10-04-2012, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Here's the thing that really annoys me: the owners have gone the lockout route three times now and the previous two times they signed off on a new deal believing it would solve all their financial problems. So they obviously have no freaking idea how to come up with a viable economic model. Every single time the labor deal ended the past three times they have to go back with their hands out to the players because they have no idea what it will take to make their league successful.

If they can't figure out how to run their business I honestly don't give a crap. Keep locking the players out and eroding interest in the game and then wonder why so many of your franchises completely suck ass and so few people follow and support the sport.
^THIS. (Weiserhood clap)

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10-04-2012, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Here's the thing that really annoys me: the owners have gone the lockout route three times now and the previous two times they signed off on a new deal believing it would solve all their financial problems. So they obviously have no freaking idea how to come up with a viable economic model. Every single time the labor deal ended the past three times they have to go back with their hands out to the players because they have no idea what it will take to make their league successful.

If they can't figure out how to run their business I honestly don't give a crap. Keep locking the players out and eroding interest in the game and then wonder why so many of your franchises completely suck ass and so few people follow and support the sport.
Pretty much how I feel.

And what bothers me the most is that when someone suggests a semi-radical change, like axing a few bottom-feeder teams, people are like "well, that's not a solution". ********, it's a good start.

If they're going to cancel a good portion of the season, I'm fine with the whole thing being cancelled. Winning a cup in a partially locked-out season wouldn't even have the same esteem.

But to be honest, I don't care about the financial success of the NHL. I actually like that it's a niche sport that the masses don't understand or have interest in. I just want the league to maintain (or regain) it's integrity as a sport.


Last edited by crashman: 10-04-2012 at 10:13 PM.
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10-05-2012, 02:49 AM
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I've already posted my feelings on this (canceled Center Ice, won't go to any games, won't buy any merchandise, won't support the league with even a single dollar). But yeah, I'm done with the NHL too, for at least a full year, and probably longer. I'll follow the Wings progress and the prospects, catch games when they are nationally televised, but I play hockey 2-3 times a week, and I'm a big college hockey fan, so I get my hockey fix, even without the NHL. Eventually, these labor disputes just encroach on principles. And mine are such that the league has pushed me away.

I don't blame anyone who doesn't feel this way though. We're all free to spend our time and money as we choose, and I understand that for a lot of people it's 'NHL or bust.'

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10-05-2012, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Here's the thing that really annoys me: the owners have gone the lockout route three times now and the previous two times they signed off on a new deal believing it would solve all their financial problems. So they obviously have no freaking idea how to come up with a viable economic model. Every single time the labor deal ended the past three times they have to go back with their hands out to the players because they have no idea what it will take to make their league successful.

If they can't figure out how to run their business I honestly don't give a crap. Keep locking the players out and eroding interest in the game and then wonder why so many of your franchises completely suck ass and so few people follow and support the sport.
Because the owners can perfectly predict how the league is going to work financially years down the road and plan for every possible pitfall in the American and Canadian economy, player contracts, and fan demand.

Both sides are at fault, here. It's not just on the owners.

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10-05-2012, 10:48 AM
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The problem that most people aren't seeing is this:

Unless you have significant revenue sharing, the quickly growing disparity in revenues between the top teams and bottom teams means that simple things, like salary roll backs and reductions in HRR, do NOTHING to solve the problem.

People will say, well why should rich teams spend their own money on poor teams... But once you agree to linkage and a salary floor, revenue sharing becomes vital to solving the problem.

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10-05-2012, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post
Because the owners can perfectly predict how the league is going to work financially years down the road and plan for every possible pitfall in the American and Canadian economy, player contracts, and fan demand.

Both sides are at fault, here. It's not just on the owners.
Sorry, but that's not the case at all. No other professional sports league has to lock their players out every time their CBA expires. The NHL is alone in this regard. They have gotten everything they reasonably wanted from the players the last two negotiations to the point of ending the lockout. The only reason to end those lockouts was because they felt comfortable that the new economic arrangement would work out better for them.

They have failed. Miserably. Three times in a row.

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10-05-2012, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
Sorry, but that's not the case at all. No other professional sports league has to lock their players out every time their CBA expires. The NHL is alone in this regard.
The NHL makes the least out of all those sports leagues, so I'm not sure why you think comparing the two would mean anything. As far as the NBA, they have a completely different CBA structure than the NHL, and they were locked out for half a season last year.

The fact that the owners are willing to lose out on revenue should say enough about how the previous CBA escalated against their favor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
They have gotten everything they reasonably wanted from the players the last two negotiations to the point of ending the lockout. The only reason to end those lockouts was because they felt comfortable that the new economic arrangement would work out better for them.

They have failed. Miserably. Three times in a row.
Everything? How many teams are making money?

Once again, you act like once you choose a CBA nothing out of your control changes. It is an economical situation. They can't always prevent every possible pitfall, and it is up to both the owners and the players to take the time to make a deal before this happens. Every freaking professional sports league has done that. The NHLPA is as much at fault for the lack of talk between the two parties as the owners and NHL is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
The problem that most people aren't seeing is this:

Unless you have significant revenue sharing, the quickly growing disparity in revenues between the top teams and bottom teams means that simple things, like salary roll backs and reductions in HRR, do NOTHING to solve the problem.

People will say, well why should rich teams spend their own money on poor teams... But once you agree to linkage and a salary floor, revenue sharing becomes vital to solving the problem.
I think it would do the league well to utilize the NFL model as far as revenue sharing goes. Split the pot that comes from the TV revenue evenly to all parties, as well as share some of the gate revenue. That and reduce the player percentage a bit every year to 52-54%, and I think it could work.

The players can't possibly think they are entitled to 57% if the owners can prove they aren't viable with another strategy. The problem there is the owners haven't shown that, yet.


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10-05-2012, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ArGarBarGar View Post

The players can't possibly think they are entitled to 57% if the owners can prove they aren't viable with another strategy. The problem there is the owners haven't shown that, yet.
The owners certainly thought the players were entitled to 57% or they never would have agreed to the amount! Gary Bettman crowed about cost certainty being the key this time around.

The owners have plenty of viable other strategies, they just won't utilize them. The most obvious is lowering the salary cap floor and engaging in significant revenue sharing, which is what successful sports leagues do.

The NHL is not a successful sports league, not by a long shot. But the players are going to be the ones who are responsible for changing that.

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10-08-2012, 02:36 PM
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Found this and it is pretty anti-NHLPA but interesting and made me laugh. I think it is actually re-tread from 2004 by the figures but here you go.


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10-08-2012, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Found this and it is pretty anti-NHLPA but interesting and made me laugh. I think it is actually re-tread from 2004 by the figures but here you go.

This seriously made you laugh? Well then I guess you have a pretty major stiffy for incredibly bad management that over-pays for jit players and then cries for help to stop them from signing jit players. Those poor owners must have a gun pressed against their temples forcing them to sign those players.

I totally pay for hockey tickets and buy Center Ice and own hockey jerseys just to see Charles Wang make the sport all it can be.

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10-08-2012, 09:35 PM
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
This seriously made you laugh? Well then I guess you have a pretty major stiffy for incredibly bad management that over-pays for jit players and then cries for help to stop them from signing jit players. Those poor owners must have a gun pressed against their temples forcing them to sign those players.

I totally pay for hockey tickets and buy Center Ice and own hockey jerseys just to see Charles Wang make the sport all it can be.
I agree with you.
Except it needs to be said the the moronic owners also locked out the players to get a salary cap and then, stupidly, included a salary floor that does, in deed, put a gun to the owners' head to pay players more than they can afford.

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10-08-2012, 09:53 PM
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This seriously made you laugh? Well then I guess you have a pretty major stiffy for incredibly bad management that over-pays for jit players and then cries for help to stop them from signing jit players. Those poor owners must have a gun pressed against their temples forcing them to sign those players.

I totally pay for hockey tickets and buy Center Ice and own hockey jerseys just to see Charles Wang make the sport all it can be.
Wow nice over-reaction there buddy. I have trouble with both sides, I do lean more toward the owners but calm down.

Also would do better to list someone that doesn't hover at the forced cap floor as your owner. Probably not the best example even if he is a terrible owner. He does in fact have to sign players to well over market value just to reach the cap floor. He is forced to by rule.

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10-08-2012, 10:03 PM
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Wow nice over-reaction there buddy. I have trouble with both sides, I do lean more toward the owners but calm down.

Also would do better to list someone that doesn't hover at the forced cap floor as your owner. Probably not the best example even if he is a terrible owner. He does in fact have to sign players to well over market value just to reach the cap floor. He is forced to by rule.
It seriously wasn't funny at all so you deserve to get called out for considering it funny. Also there are plenty of franchises that can eat a bad contact, say Toronto signing Jeff Finger for $3.5 million per year or Wade Redden being signed by the Rangers for $6.5 million per year. Our hearts are seriously supposed to bleed when a crap franchise like Florida has to sign Ed Jovanovski for $5.7 million per year or the Phoenix Coyotes can't afford Shane Doan?

100% truth: those franchises shouldn't exist. Just look at the Minnesota Wild - lost their team to the Dallas Stars, a hotbed of hockey dontchyaknow - but were able to sign Ryan Suter and Zach Parise this offseason.

If the NHL wants to lower the salary cap floor well that would make a lot of sense but that isn't the centerpiece of their negotiations for this third CBA with a lockout, now is it? How about revenue sharing, the owners seem pretty keen on getting that set up anytime soon?

So YES, let's rip on the players for holding a gun to the heads of the owners to get the last two lockouts solved.

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10-08-2012, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
This seriously made you laugh? Well then I guess you have a pretty major stiffy for incredibly bad management that over-pays for jit players and then cries for help to stop them from signing jit players. Those poor owners must have a gun pressed against their temples forcing them to sign those players.
I do not have a stiffy for those things, and while the video isn't comedy gold, I still found it funny. Then again, I just don't care about the lockout anymore, I've checked out, so making fun of the players doesn't offend me.

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10-08-2012, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fabricoh View Post
It seriously wasn't funny at all so you deserve to get called out for considering it funny. Also there are plenty of franchises that can eat a bad contact, say Toronto signing Jeff Finger for $3.5 million per year or Wade Redden being signed by the Rangers for $6.5 million per year. Our hearts are seriously supposed to bleed when a crap franchise like Florida has to sign Ed Jovanovski for $5.7 million per year or the Phoenix Coyotes can't afford Shane Doan?

100% truth: those franchises shouldn't exist. Just look at the Minnesota Wild - lost their team to the Dallas Stars, a hotbed of hockey dontchyaknow - but were able to sign Ryan Suter and Zach Parise this offseason.

If the NHL wants to lower the salary cap floor well that would make a lot of sense but that isn't the centerpiece of their negotiations for this third CBA with a lockout, now is it? How about revenue sharing, the owners seem pretty keen on getting that set up anytime soon?

So YES, let's rip on the players for holding a gun to the heads of the owners to get the last two lockouts solved.
I guess you are missing the part where my heart doesn't bleed for either side. Hence why I find it funny that guys that make 700 dollars per day on average are really doing this. Cry me a river on either side.

All the while we care about the fans, that was the funny part about it for me and accurate. Both sides claim this but they don't give a rats ***. Glad they have hoodwinked you into taking a side though.

If it wasn't funny for you, oh well, didn't know I needed your approval to go on with my daily life or post around here. A lot of people find different things interesting, thought this summed up how I feel about the players right now. If they did one of these and said billionaires that own novelty items that don't produce money, need people to sit around until they come up with a new solution that probably won't produce money, I would laugh at that as well. Both sides are screwed up, but I think the owners will eventually win. I also won't claim that I won't be right back watching. Why fake empty threats or get riled up over something I have no control over?


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10-08-2012, 11:42 PM
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Fabrioch is taking this way too personally right now.

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10-08-2012, 11:44 PM
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day 171 without hockey. While watching the Tigers is getting me by Laylands poor management of the team has me close to a break down. Only chance is to make it to college hockey as college football is over for me now as a Michigan fan. As a LIons fan they are dead also.

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10-08-2012, 11:55 PM
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day 171 without hockey. While watching the Tigers is getting me by Laylands poor management of the team has me close to a break down. Only chance is to make it to college hockey as college football is over for me now as a Michigan fan. As a LIons fan they are dead also.
Why is that? The Big Ten is so horrible that Michigan can still win the conference and go to the Rose Bowl. And certainly your expectations weren't any higher than that going into this year, were they?

Lions are dead though, I agree. I knew there'd be a dropoff, but they are barreling right towards a last place finish in the division at this point.

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10-09-2012, 01:59 AM
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Wow nice over-reaction there buddy. I have trouble with both sides, I do lean more toward the owners but calm down.

Also would do better to list someone that doesn't hover at the forced cap floor as your owner. Probably not the best example even if he is a terrible owner. He does in fact have to sign players to well over market value just to reach the cap floor. He is forced to by rule.
Not true.
With some planning, you shouldn't have to knowingly pay anyone more than what they are worth.

Nobody is forced to pay Kopecky $4M. But if you don't plan and you $10 mill under and you need to sign two guys and there is nobody good left...

Even then,.. You could trade fro someone's 'bad' contract, like they did with Brian Campbell.

The one thing the owners are forced to do is, in cases where teams are really broke, they're forced to spend a up to the salary floor and lose money.

Maybe nobody is overpaid... but as a whole, the floor does make owners lose money.

But that's part of the price of parity.

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10-09-2012, 02:07 AM
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I guess you are missing the part where my heart doesn't bleed for either side. Hence why I find it funny that guys that make 700 dollars per day on average are really doing this. Cry me a river on either side.

All the while we care about the fans, that was the funny part about it for me and accurate. Both sides claim this but they don't give a rats ***. Glad they have hoodwinked you into taking a side though.

If it wasn't funny for you, oh well, didn't know I needed your approval to go on with my daily life or post around here. A lot of people find different things interesting, thought this summed up how I feel about the players right now. If they did one of these and said billionaires that own novelty items that don't produce money, need people to sit around until they come up with a new solution that probably won't produce money, I would laugh at that as well. Both sides are screwed up, but I think the owners will eventually win. I also won't claim that I won't be right back watching. Why fake empty threats or get riled up over something I have no control over?
I thought the video was pretty lame.

Whatever.

I get riled up because a lot of the attitude I see from pro-owner people is the sort of top-down, no-respect for employees approach we see in the real world -- even thought Owners vs PA isn't really relatable to most people.

Secondly, I don't trust billionaire owners.
They lie to the fans. They try to squeeze out every god damn penny they can out of us. And then they shut the league down.
And who does it hurt? Not them. Not the players ...

But it hurts the people they're squeezing for money.

At the end of the day, if the players had launched their third strike in 17 years, I'd have a lot less sympathy for them..

These owners have decided to screw over the fans once again. Three times now in 4 CBAs.

That's pathetic. And I don't understand how anyone can side with these guys.

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10-09-2012, 07:02 AM
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Fabrioch is taking this way too personally right now.
So you've given up on adding anything meaningful to the conversation and instead just take shots at me? I can't say any more otherwise I'll have moderators all over me. I'll just leave it at the fact I have an opinion and have backed it up. Sorry you can't do the same.

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