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MLB off-season news and notes thread (Yankees re-sign Ichiro)

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:44 PM
  #326
Static
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Triple Crown IS a good enough reason to win.

I'm wrong because MATH!! right??? other stats surely more important??? who CARES

the man did something who hasn't been done since 1973

COME OF IT SabreCLOWNS
Volley

Better Storyzz!!

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:44 PM
  #327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Triple Crown IS a good enough reason to win.

I'm wrong because MATH!! right??? other stats surely more important??? who CARES

the man did something who hasn't been done since 1973

COME OF IT SabreCLOWNS
Told you he would come in and rant against Sabremetrics

Fire Sather never disappoints

Good lad

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:47 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
I'm sorry, but a 10.2 WAR player not getting the MVP is an absolute joke. That is historic level of dominance that results in zero hardware. This is worse than Jim Joyce botching Gallaraga's perfect game call.
Its really not.

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:53 PM
  #329
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It's a subjective award, who cares. Everyone knows who objectively had the better season

I declare this thread OVER







until the next response

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:54 PM
  #330
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Let's focus on what is really important. There is currently a baseball game underway featuring Ruben Rivera. This is your last chance to make jokes about the time he stole Derek Jeter's glove.

http://web.worldbaseballclassic.com/...nt_id=25484773

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Old
11-15-2012, 09:55 PM
  #331
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All the "traditionalists" wanna come in here and " told you so stat nerds! Cabrera FTW!!!11" But not surprised Cabrera won. We all saw it coming, not ******** about it one bit. There have been much bigger robberies. (I wouldn't even classify this as a robbery though.) And it's not like Cabrera was undeserving it was just Trout deserved it more.

Most voters either voted for the story (Triple Crown), used playoffs as a tiebreaker (even though Angels won more games in a tougher divison) or are just ignorant to advanced stats.

Cabrera had an amazing year, no question about, I don't think anyone in their right mind would deny that. My question is, had Granderson or Hamilton hit 2 more HR does he still win MVP? IMO, no. He still has the same season, just no Triple Crown.
He won because he won the Triple Crown plain and simple. Now that's a great accomplishment that hasn't been done in a while but I don't think it should guarantee an MVP. (And it hasn't in the past.)

Trout was the better OVERALL player. The slightly better offensive season Cabrera had doesn't make up for how much Trout obliterates him in defense and base running. Trout also had the higher OBP and he created more runs. OBP isn't even a sabremetric and has been around forever.

People like to dismiss WAR, and that's fine but really you don't even need WAR to make an argument for Trout. People wanna dismiss defensive stats that's fine too, but even in the eye test you can see Trout is probably the best CF in the game and saves his team runs whereas Cabrera is one of the worst at 3B and costs his team runs. (I don't care that he changed positions.)

Listen being pro-Trout does not mean we're hating on Cabrera it's just that taking every thing into account we feel Trout was the more Valuable player.

Although, I gotta say, even being a Trout supporter I did enjoy Keith Law's explosion.

Congrats to Miggy, he had a great year.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:05 PM
  #332
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Holy God Carlos Lee is fat nowadays.

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:45 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Triple Crown IS a good enough reason to win.

I'm wrong because MATH!! right??? other stats surely more important??? who CARES

the man did something who hasn't been done since 1973

COME OF IT SabreCLOWNS
You know how many times 30HR, 45 SB and OPS+ of 170 has happened?

Once.

HISTORY!

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:47 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
You know how many times 30HR, 45 SB and OPS+ of 170 has happened?

Once.

HISTORY!
But, those numbers don't have a shiny crown around them!!

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Old
11-15-2012, 10:51 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Clowe Me View Post
But, those numbers don't have a shiny crown around them!!
I would easily argue those numbers are far more important to winning a baseball game than a Triple Crown as well.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:12 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
Its really not.
Please elaborate. I assure that you take Vladimir Guerrero in his prime over Ozzie Smith too? After all, he did have more rbis, hrs and better BA. Therefore he is the superior player.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:15 PM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
The first two thought Weaver was better than Verlander and Davison somehow thought Fernando Rodney was the best pitcher in the AL.
Meh. Rodney had the best year as a reliever ever. Was a shutdown guy. I approve his first place vote and I think Price was the better pitcher. Had he had consistent run support, dude would have won about 25 games. Lost a few games giving up 1 or 2 runs. Good job by the writers on that one.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:20 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snowden View Post
Meh. Rodney had the best year as a reliever ever. Was a shutdown guy. I approve his first place vote and I think Price was the better pitcher. Had he had consistent run support, dude would have won about 25 games. Lost a few games giving up 1 or 2 runs. Good job by the writers on that one.
You approve a Rodney first place vote? He only pitched 74 innings; I personally hate the idea of a reliever winning a Cy Young myself.

Heck, I could argue that Craig Kimbrel was a better reliever this year.

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Old
11-15-2012, 11:49 PM
  #339
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Would have voted Trout but I was hoping Miguel would win just to see the whine fest.

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:04 AM
  #340
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Miggy deserved the MVP. The triple crown trumps advanced stats and puts statboi's back in pocket. This is a breath of fresh air for baseball that a season such as the one Miggy just had gets not only the respect such a feat deserves, but also the justification that stat crunching is just a bunch of numbers when the bottom line is, and always should be, the main statistical categories.


I enjoy this, its refreshing, like mint.

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:22 AM
  #341
Brad Tolliver
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Originally Posted by newfy View Post
And until WAR can be unified and not be a flawed stat, voters wont take it seriously. Its a good way to gauge value, but isnt definitive
It's a good way to gauge value, but you can't take it seriously to determine the Most Valuable Player.

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:23 AM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Brad Tolliver View Post
Triple crown winners were 5 for 9 in winning MVP before this season.

The stats must not have been that important.
eh, I dont think that is relevant now. Back when guys were winning the triple crown with more regularity you had baseball writers who held some serious grudges against players. See Ted Williams.
he won the triple crown twice(42,47) and did not win the MVP either year. Mainly because he hated baseball writers. Things were much different before Yaz won it in 67

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:30 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
eh, I dont think that is relevant now. Back when guys were winning the triple crown with more regularity you had baseball writers who held some serious grudges against players. See Ted Williams.
he won the triple crown twice(42,47) and did not win the MVP either year. Mainly because he hated baseball writers. Things were much different before Yaz won it in 67
Did they hate Gehrig too?

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:34 AM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
eh, I dont think that is relevant now. Back when guys were winning the triple crown with more regularity you had baseball writers who held some serious grudges against players. See Ted Williams.
he won the triple crown twice(42,47) and did not win the MVP either year. Mainly because he hated baseball writers. Things were much different before Yaz won it in 67
I know the feeling..

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:36 AM
  #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Miggy deserved the MVP. The triple crown trumps advanced stats and puts statboi's back in pocket. This is a breath of fresh air for baseball that a season such as the one Miggy just had gets not only the respect such a feat deserves, but also the justification that stat crunching is just a bunch of numbers when the bottom line is, and always should be, the main statistical categories.


I enjoy this, its refreshing, like mint.
What about a feat like the one I mentioned earlier?

The group of one that have 30+HR, 45+SB and an OPS+ above 170

Just so you know, OPS+ isn't really "stat crunching"; all it's saying is that not all ballparks are equal (because they're not).

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:39 AM
  #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Tolliver View Post
Did they hate Gehrig too?
Williams was a jerk to the baseball writers. Or so I have been told haha. I am old but not that old. Lou Gehrig by all accounts was a complete opposite of Williams as a person with the media. Of course Gehrig was a great player in his own right as well.
I was just making a point that baseball writers did hold grudges back in the day and that it is well documented.

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Old
11-16-2012, 12:51 AM
  #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Miggy deserved the MVP. The triple crown trumps advanced stats and puts statboi's back in pocket. This is a breath of fresh air for baseball that a season such as the one Miggy just had gets not only the respect such a feat deserves, but also the justification that stat crunching is just a bunch of numbers when the bottom line is, and always should be, the main statistical categories.


I enjoy this, its refreshing, like mint.
10 or so years ago, Cabrera would have gotten every single 1st place vote. Trout most likely wouldn't have come in 2nd.

Despite the fact that the Triple Crown is worthless (I mean, if Hamilton gets a few more home runs, Cabrera suddenly deserves the MVP less?) and I think the BBWAA is filled with a bunch of idiots (and have since they robbed Pedro Martinez of an MVP), they do take into account more stats now than they used to (Just look Hernandez winning the Cy Young -- they ignored a win-loss record for once).

Although I don't know how a guy like Curt Schilling can see that the Triple Crown is worthless, yet the people voting on the MVP can't.


Last edited by PayItForward: 11-16-2012 at 01:00 AM.
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Old
11-16-2012, 12:57 AM
  #348
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Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Are wins in September worth more than wins in April?

I agree WAR's not definitive, but I don't think that's why Trout fans think he's more deserving.

Do you consider base-running and defense to be important when gauging value? I know I certainly do.
As a sport fan I hate how Trout supporters try to play dumb in the whole games in April are worth just as much. Obviously in the standings they are, but they don't have as much pressure in them. If a hockey player is great in the 1st round of the NHL playoffs, and disappears in the cup finals, is it ok because he helped get them out of the first round? No, he'll be considered a guy who cracked under pressure.

Trout supporters say Oh Miggy fans just say I told you so and run away but I rarely see a Trout fan acknowledge the difference in pressure. You honestly think the final games of the regular season dont have more pressure, thats fine. But youre just as bad as those old school guys who acknowledge no new stats
Quote:
Originally Posted by Static View Post
Trout had an above .800 OPS in September, when his team won more games than the Tigers.

But hey, Cabrera led a worse team to a worse record in a worse division against worse competition, better reward him for it.

No Tigers fan has come in here with any sort of logical argument for why Cabrera should have won, and that's ok, because one doesn't exist. The extent of their responses are either "Suck ITZZ", or "TRIPLE CROWNZZ" and then they disappear back under the rocks they live in, where math can't hurt them.
Trouts stats dropped off significantly in down the stretch, dont play dumb. From July onwards, Cabreras OPS didnt dip below 1.032 and was 1.5 in October, yeah .800 is still good but isnt on Miggys level.

After his extremely hot July Trouts offense was on the decline.

Now as for some things going against Cabrera, like I said WAR is good to ge an understanding but its a completely subjective stat and they cant even make one definition of it. And I wont get into the defense too much because this always turns into a **** storm but I dont think Miggy is nearly as poor defensively as Trout supporters try to make him out to be. Its partially through the eye ball test but stats like UZR also dont do him justice. Cabreras biggest strength is laying out his 6'4 body to catch hot line drives in the hot corner. UZR completely ignores this fact. He also plays very error free baseball with his fielding percentage. Yeah his UZR isnt great, but if you also take his supeior ability to take away those line drives based on his size it balances out a bit.

No pitcher was more scared than when Cabrera was at bat, he led in homers in Comerica, and one a triple crown which has value as well (although those stats arent the greatest). Obviously most guys who post on an internet forum are going to be into "nerdier" things, and I expect there to be a higher amount of people who buy into the pure stat bs here than in the general public. But there is also value in the eye ball test and in the leadership Cabrera showed. Taking Garcia under his wing, and shedding over 30 lbs I believe for the good of the team.

Trout was just as good of a candidate but sports do come down to what you do when it matters, and I think the only deciding factor in al of this was he did cool down when the pressure was on. Any true sports fan knows certain games carry more weight based on pressure and I think its idiotic of some of you to try and deny that to bolster your argument

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Old
11-16-2012, 01:01 AM
  #349
Gobias Industries
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newfy View Post
As a sport fan I hate how Trout supporters try to play dumb in the whole games in April are worth just as much. Obviously in the standings they are, but they don't have as much pressure in them. If a hockey player is great in the 1st round of the NHL playoffs, and disappears in the cup finals, is it ok because he helped get them out of the first round? No, he'll be considered a guy who cracked under pressure.
So it's not really about winning games, it's about how you play under pressure?

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Old
11-16-2012, 01:32 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
I assure that you take Vladimir Guerrero in his prime over Ozzie Smith too?
I would. Without blinking.

I know taking a guy who drives in between 2 and 3 times the runs is foreign to you, but yeah that pretty much trumps defense.

Ozzie Smith drove in over 60 runs once, hit .300 once, never had an OB% of .400 (Vlad did 4 times) , never slugged .400 (Vlad did it 15 times in 15 seasons, including 11 over .500 and 2 over .600), has a career high of 6 homeruns to Gurrero's average of 34, had an OPS+ of 100 4 times to Gurerrero's 14 straight. There's absolutely no justification for taking Smith. The offensive gap is bigger than the defensive gap.


Last edited by Machinehead: 11-16-2012 at 01:39 AM.
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