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2012 CBA Discussion II (Lockout Talk)

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Old
10-14-2012, 05:34 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Looch View Post
Com on. Opening night at the Garden is just 10 days from tomorrow!

Why haven't they cancelled more yet?

Meetings scheduled for Tuesday.....whoop whoop!!

Lets see what these idiots bring to the table this week!!!!

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Old
10-14-2012, 05:47 PM
  #252
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Alberta_OReilly_Fan, do you remember the Bruins prior to the Cap system? They were a joke, they usually had one line, one good D'man and weren't willing to pay to keep their good players let alone go after a UFA. I'm already a pissed off hockey fan but it they ever considered going back to a non-cap system where five teams collected all the best players I would be so done.
we didnt win a cup for the first 30 years i was a fan... but we did make the playoffs... we always had a 500 record... we went to the finals 4 times. Its easy to say cup or nothing... to always be unhappy... but we were always a top 1/3 team spending and really only lighting-in-the-bottle teams had more success then us.

the islanders had more success... do you want to be them?
the oilers had more success... do you want to be them?

under the old system you usually had to suck in order to be good. detroit/jersey/colorado all sucked royal and then had some success.

people always worry a few teams will get all the best players... i rememebr when florida entered the nhl and there was stories in places like sports illustrated how all the guys would love the lifestyle and go play there

i rememebr how new york and la was going to get all the best players cause of the endorsements... toronto had the hometown advantage..

and sure enough some players will be drawn to things like this... parise and suter went 'home' and thornton loves to surf... and suter left us cause his wife wanted to live out west...

but in reality, small market teams have just as much chance to win as big market teams when you have a reverse draft and control players contracts for 7 years. Dynasties are not easy to put together... but a team like LA can miss the playoffs one year... win a cup the next... miss the playoffs the next all without coming close to hitting the cap max because thats just the way it is.

eliminating the cap though would stop small market teams from crying they are going out of business... and would let big market teams keep fans happy by signing attrative gate attraction players

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Old
10-14-2012, 06:58 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
we didnt win a cup for the first 30 years i was a fan... but we did make the playoffs... we always had a 500 record... we went to the finals 4 times. Its easy to say cup or nothing... to always be unhappy... but we were always a top 1/3 team spending and really only lighting-in-the-bottle teams had more success then us.

the islanders had more success... do you want to be them?
the oilers had more success... do you want to be them?

under the old system you usually had to suck in order to be good. detroit/jersey/colorado all sucked royal and then had some success.

people always worry a few teams will get all the best players... i rememebr when florida entered the nhl and there was stories in places like sports illustrated how all the guys would love the lifestyle and go play there

i rememebr how new york and la was going to get all the best players cause of the endorsements... toronto had the hometown advantage..

and sure enough some players will be drawn to things like this... parise and suter went 'home' and thornton loves to surf... and suter left us cause his wife wanted to live out west...

but in reality, small market teams have just as much chance to win as big market teams when you have a reverse draft and control players contracts for 7 years. Dynasties are not easy to put together... but a team like LA can miss the playoffs one year... win a cup the next... miss the playoffs the next all without coming close to hitting the cap max because thats just the way it is.

eliminating the cap though would stop small market teams from crying they are going out of business... and would let big market teams keep fans happy by signing attrative gate attraction players
They all won multiple cups.

Yeah, I woulda been okay being them.

Also, if your arguments against the cap are really just performance art you are very talented.

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Old
10-14-2012, 06:59 PM
  #254
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Also, eliminating the cap would stop small market teams from crying they are going broke.

Cause they would just fold.

Like Pittsburgh and Buffalo were both in danger of.

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Old
10-14-2012, 09:24 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
we didnt win a cup for the first 30 years i was a fan... but we did make the playoffs... we always had a 500 record... we went to the finals 4 times. Its easy to say cup or nothing... to always be unhappy... but we were always a top 1/3 team spending and really only lighting-in-the-bottle teams had more success then us.

the islanders had more success... do you want to be them?
the oilers had more success... do you want to be them?

under the old system you usually had to suck in order to be good. detroit/jersey/colorado all sucked royal and then had some success.

people always worry a few teams will get all the best players... i rememebr when florida entered the nhl and there was stories in places like sports illustrated how all the guys would love the lifestyle and go play there

i rememebr how new york and la was going to get all the best players cause of the endorsements... toronto had the hometown advantage..

and sure enough some players will be drawn to things like this... parise and suter went 'home' and thornton loves to surf... and suter left us cause his wife wanted to live out west...

but in reality, small market teams have just as much chance to win as big market teams when you have a reverse draft and control players contracts for 7 years. Dynasties are not easy to put together... but a team like LA can miss the playoffs one year... win a cup the next... miss the playoffs the next all without coming close to hitting the cap max because thats just the way it is.

eliminating the cap though would stop small market teams from crying they are going out of business... and would let big market teams keep fans happy by signing attrative gate attraction players
new jersey went to the finals 4 times and won 3 cups. detroit went to the finals 4 times and won 3 cups. colorado went to the finals twice and won both times.

those teams were ONLY successful because there was no salary cap. if there was a cap they would never have been able to stack that talent onto one team. There was ZERO parity before the salary cap. you had mostly the same teams going to the finals/playoffs and the bottom feeding teams stayed bottom feeders.

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Old
10-14-2012, 11:45 PM
  #256
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new jersey went to the finals 4 times and won 3 cups. detroit went to the finals 4 times and won 3 cups. colorado went to the finals twice and won both times.

those teams were ONLY successful because there was no salary cap. if there was a cap they would never have been able to stack that talent onto one team. There was ZERO parity before the salary cap. you had mostly the same teams going to the finals/playoffs and the bottom feeding teams stayed bottom feeders.
those teams were successful cause at first they sucked for 7-10 year stretches where they were mickey mouse.. or the dead wings... or had 3 first overall picks in a roll

then they managed to start making good decesions with new management.

they used the ability to spend to make choices of renting trade deadline guys... but they continued to draft well too... and they were attractive places to play so ufa came to sign with the teams

they could do the same thing under a cap as without a cap... ultimately good decesion making is good decesion making

but then there was philly and new york and toronto... they spent more... they won less. cause they didnt allow themselves to suck for 7-10 years. They didnt make as good of decesions after.

its a fine line sometimes making good decesions.. not all good decesions work out... not all bad decesions end up failing. theres also luck involved sometimes

we got a bit lucky winning our cup... we got a bit unlucky losing in past years. Theres always a bit of luck involved.

teams that draft top 10 year after year dont always get better {see islanders/oilers/florida} and its not always necessary to have top 10 picks in your lineup to win a cup {see us}

ive tried to say what i mean here... ill try again. If the union is willing to get rid of cap floor/cap ceiling but is willing to continue to share 50-57% of the revenue then i believe this is the best solution for everyone

the only harm is maybe competitive balance {which i dont think is bad anyhow}
and the benefits is the players still get paid but now its by the rich teams.

even if the rich teams give the players every cent of the 50% the poor teams can still sign 50 contracts anyhow cause thats when escrow kicks in. Ultimately the players only get the % they are promised but now each team can spend whatever they feel is fair

the players might get screwed being promised 400% more money then they are entitled to.. but thats their fault.. and its their proposal... so i guess they are willing to live with it

rich teams like to spend.. we saw how gleefully they tried to ruin the last cba. poor teams cry poor when they are forced to spend. players want money.

so who is being hurt by my proposal? Teams managed well will still ultimately win... teams not managed well will still ultimately lose. That happens under a cap or no cap. Maybe the 'illusion' of having a chance will be gone for teams like the oilers and islanders but honestly how much chance did they actually have? i think, just enough to keep them from making smart moves at the deadline... false hope sucks

boston got better after 97 cause we bit the bullet and dealt off oates and tocchet. getting allison/carter was the first step back to respectability but that wouldnt have happened if we had any delusions about squeeking into the 8th spot of the playoffs

not all rebuilds lead to glory... but trying to finish 7th-10th year after year is only a path to eternal hell. best to either have a team with a legit chance... or bite the bullet and go with kids

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Old
10-14-2012, 11:50 PM
  #257
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They all won multiple cups.

Yeah, I woulda been okay being them.

Also, if your arguments against the cap are really just performance art you are very talented.
they won multiple cups.. but then what?

islanders made smart moves... got kind of lucky... got a core that was as good as it gets... and then the core was gone and how many cups have they won in the past 30 years since?

oilers got lucky... entered the NHL with 2 of the 5 greatest players of all time... then those 2 guys were gone and how many cups since?

pittsburgh too with lemieux/jarg was very smart/lucky but then they were gone and the franchise was at deaths door. was the lottery rigged to give them crosby? probably not... but you got to admit it was nice luck for them.

how will pittsburgh do after crosby is gone?

i think boston did just fine before cap... we didnt win the multiple cups these teams did but we didnt suck either. none of these teams win without sucking.

we had our period of suck from 97-2004 or so... and then we won a cup and come close a couple more times and still might win another...

but during 97-2004, no one here was ok.... there was revolt. you guys were screaming bloody murder.

without the suck.. you dont win usually.. and if you do its a one and done

sucking is needed for dynasties. and thats the only thing fans will accept. one and dones never sell tickets after the champagne is done flowing

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Old
10-15-2012, 12:23 AM
  #258
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eliminating the cap though would stop small market teams from crying they are going out of business... and would let big market teams keep fans happy by signing attrative gate attraction players
Since no one seems to be calling you out for the basest of reasons why this isn't a great ideal, I'm going to step up to the plate. Understand that when I say this, it is not out of disrespect to you. You are one of my favorite posters - a personally treasured member of this board. Please do not take my bluntness as an attack on you personally.

Your proposal not only makes for a worse and less interesting NHL, but for one that cannot function at ALL. It is an idea that would not be beneficial to players, to the league, or to the fans. There are MANY reasons for this, but I will outline the broadest and most important two.

1. You mention the elimination of the cap floor as being your primary reason for the suggestion. Your greatest benefit (and if this is unfair, please feel free to set me straight), if you will.

How many teams spent only to the cap floor? Or... if it's easier: The cap floor last season was $48.3M. Only eight teams in the entire NHL spent less than $55M. The Florida Panthers lost $7M and spent to $7M OVER lowest requirement. The Hurricanes spent $2M over and lost $4M. The Blue Jackets spent $13M over... and lost $14M. The Lightning? $11M over, losing $8.5M.

The poster team for contraction arguments in the NHL is probably the Panthers (no?). If they had spent only to the barest minimum requirement, based on revenues, they would have broken EVEN. As it stands, they only lost $7M - which isn't by any means catastrophic.

Lowering the cap floor does not mean that these teams won't spend as much as they can. It is as of today, more of a formality than anything else.

2. Your solution misses the ACTUAL issue, which is not that the smaller market teams lose too much money. It's that the VAST majority of the league has a limited to ability to MAKE money.

You not only had only six teams make more than $10M (in profit) last season, but you had 22 teams within $10M of par. 22 teams in the league either lost $10M or less, or made $10M or less. Regardless of whether these teams were big market, small market, Canadian or Southern American (the Senators only made $2.8M, the Stars only lost $1.1M - a $4M difference in profit between the two franchises), it is incredibly difficult to turn a sound consistent profit in the NHL.

The ability for small market teams to not lose money is a quandary that has already been licked. We lost an entire season licking it.

...

When you propose a solution to a problem that instead attempts to fix a different issue that doesn't exist - an actual solution hasn't been proposed. There are numerous other errors sprinkled into what you're saying. But at the core? This is why it doesn't work.

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Old
10-15-2012, 10:17 AM
  #259
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Is there any hope at all at this point?

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Old
10-15-2012, 10:23 AM
  #260
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Is there any hope at all at this point?
Since this didn't appear to be direct at anyone in particular, I'm happy to answer it...


NO

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10-15-2012, 10:56 AM
  #261
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Since this didn't appear to be direct at anyone in particular, I'm happy to answer it...


NO
To answer your question about basketball......NO I am not at all interested. Also hate football and couldn't care less about baseball.

I AM BORED, broke and angry. . It has to be difficult for you too .

Anyone else going to Manchester Friday to see the Providence B's ?

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Old
10-15-2012, 11:07 AM
  #262
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NHLPA is working on a proposal, hopefully for tomorrow.

Pretty make or break to see if this will be ending soon.

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10-15-2012, 11:08 AM
  #263
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To answer your question about basketball......NO I am not at all interested. Also hate football and couldn't care less about baseball.

I AM BORED, broke and angry. . It has to be difficult for you too .

Anyone else going to Manchester Friday to see the Providence B's ?
The wife and I are sec 109

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10-15-2012, 11:11 AM
  #264
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NHLPA is working on a proposal, hopefully for tomorrow.

Pretty make or break to see if this will be ending soon.
I hope this is good news.

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10-15-2012, 11:11 AM
  #265
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The wife and I are sec 109
101 for me

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10-15-2012, 11:16 AM
  #266
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101 for me
I can't decide if i want to wear my Monarchs or Bruins gear.

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Old
10-15-2012, 11:21 AM
  #267
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I can't decide if i want to wear my Monarchs or Bruins gear.
I say B's

I haven't been to that arena for years.

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Old
10-15-2012, 11:30 AM
  #268
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NHLPA is working on a proposal, hopefully for tomorrow.

Pretty make or break to see if this will be ending soon.
this will be over one month from today

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10-15-2012, 11:34 AM
  #269
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I say B's

I haven't been to that arena for years.
It will be B's of course. Although last year i threw my ticket agent for a loop the 1st time he saw me in B's gear instead of Monarchs stuff.

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10-15-2012, 11:37 AM
  #270
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this will be over one month from today
My guess is that since almost 20% if the season has been canceled, you have an initial reduction for year one.

54.67 in 2013-2014
52.33 in 2014-2015
50 in 2015-2016

10 year agreement, 2 expansion teams to Canada, Olympic Participation, World Cup in Summer Olympic Years (included in HRR), 2 tiers of capped rookie deals which lead to earlier UFA status.

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10-15-2012, 11:56 AM
  #271
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My guess is that since almost 20% if the season has been canceled, you have an initial reduction for year one.

54.67 in 2013-2014
52.33 in 2014-2015
50 in 2015-2016

10 year agreement, 2 expansion teams to Canada, Olympic Participation, World Cup in Summer Olympic Years (included in HRR), 2 tiers of capped rookie deals which lead to earlier UFA status.
There is no way either side will be stupid enough to agree to expansion.

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10-15-2012, 12:07 PM
  #272
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There is no way either side will be stupid enough to agree to expansion.
https://twitter.com/JKTHN/statuses/256376786852667392

Increase in HRR, money to the owners, more NHLPA jobs, 32 teams, 16 conferences, 8 team divisions, more players, more mistakes, more goals. Still gives you a relocation option of Phoenix to Seattle or KC

Win-win for everyone.

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10-15-2012, 12:15 PM
  #273
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https://twitter.com/JKTHN/statuses/256376786852667392

Increase in HRR, money to the owners, more NHLPA jobs, 32 teams, 16 conferences, 8 team divisions, more players, more mistakes, more goals. Still gives you a relocation option of Phoenix to Seattle or KC

Win-win for everyone.
Can't read the tweetie whats it say?

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10-15-2012, 12:19 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
https://twitter.com/JKTHN/statuses/256376786852667392

Increase in HRR, money to the owners, more NHLPA jobs, 32 teams, 16 conferences, 8 team divisions, more players, more mistakes, more goals. Still gives you a relocation option of Phoenix to Seattle or KC

Win-win for everyone.
Watered down product. Outweighs all the cash reasons to do it.

And are we even sure we have 32 viable markets?

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10-15-2012, 12:20 PM
  #275
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Ummmm, no offense but you told everyone on several occasions that a deal would be worked out long before now. I could go back and find each of your quotes but I'm sure everyone remembers them.

You obviously aren't nearly as tuned in with the so-called insider info as you would like us all to believe. Again, no offense.


Ummmm, no offense but DKH told everyone on several occasions that a deal would be worked out between Nov. 12 - 15. You could go back and find his quotes.

As for your second paragraph...



No one knows when the lockout will end, no matter how close they are to the negotiations, but this guy is as tuned in with the so-called insider info as anyone on these boards.

He is one of the reasons many of us continue to read and post here.

You may want to pay more attention to him and a few others. They'll keep you well informed.

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