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The Consolidated Entertainment Thread (TV/Books/Movies/Music/Video Games) Part V

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Old
05-21-2013, 04:03 PM
  #851
Scottyk9
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Will be sticking with the 360 through the next round of consoles for sure.

Main reason..it's what me and my friends play..and in the end that's what matters.

Reports are claiming that Xbox One will require all games to be installed on the console's HDD before they can be played.
According to Wired, if owners want to use the disc with a second account they'll be asked to pay a fee and install the game from the disc, suggesting that once games are installed you won't need to insert the disc to play.


It's unclear what this means for the secondhand market, though Microsoft announced onan FAQ page (since removed) that the Xbox One is designed "to enable customers to trade in and resell games. We'll have more details to share later." It didn't reference the fees confirmed by Microsoft to Wired.


Last edited by Scottyk9: 05-21-2013 at 04:09 PM.
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05-21-2013, 04:12 PM
  #852
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I like that idea, Scotty. It's like the XBOX One will act like a Mini-PC in a way. You install the game and run it from the HDD. In the meantime, you could either sell the CD back to the seller or to someone else OR you can keep it.

Plus, the ability to be able to play games installed on the HDD without the requirement of a CD eliminates the real possibility of games not being able to be played due to scratches and wear-and-tear of game cd's.



So while I don't like the idea of having to pay a fee just to install a game, the concept behind it is sound.

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05-21-2013, 04:34 PM
  #853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
This is the second time you've gotten defensive. Obviously the only one showing bias here is you. Am I a loyal Microsoft user? Yes, I am. But I'm also OPEN MINDED. And my opinion on which console to win me over was up for grabs for both consoles. I gave them both fair chances. Sony hasn't even revealed its specs yet. They went too heavy with what games they have. When most of those games will end up on Xbox One to begin with.

Xbox One didn't need to focus on games. They focused on the power of the CONSOLE. The new TECHNOLOGY. Which is what we want to hear. Yes, these consoles are, to laymen terms, just gaming consoles, but the way we use technology has evolved. And continues to evolve. Microsoft is taking advantage of that, appealing to an audience that goes beyond JUST gamers. If that offends you in some way, that's your opinion, and that's fine.

Also, just a statistic, the Xbox 360 was a MASSIVE success over the Playstation 3. Not in exclusives rendered, but in total units sold and money garnered. I'm sure you're already gearing up your angry biased response. "RAH RAH RAH PSN IS FREE **** MICROSOFT FOR MAKING A SERVICE THAT COSTS MONEY. THEY CARE ABOUT NOTHING BUT MONEY BLAH BLAH BLAH." They do care about money. What successful business doesn't? Do you care about money? If not, please, show us all by making a video of you burning your entire life's savings. Didn't think so. Moving on. Microsoft has achieved powerhouse partners with big publishers, and that is most likely going to continue, going forward. Not because these companies want to maximize their profit by making their silly little game available on Xbox One, Playstation 4, Playstation 3, Nintendo Wii-U, Xbox 360, Playstation Vita, Nintendo 3DS, and so on, but because they know that the Xbox 360 was the most popular console of its generation.
Didn't see this before the mod edit, so who knows what fun points I missed out on seeing. But given what I do see...

First, don't assume. Just because i'm not ruining my shorts in response to this announcement doesn't mean I'm defensive or biased. When the PS4 announcement came out, I was equally as negative about it as I am this. And for the same reasons. I hate what these reveals have become the industry over. Not just against xbox. Note how my complaints in my last post were about systems on the whole? Not just microsoft or the xbox? Notice how I grouped the PS4 and Xbox One together when talking about how they're all peripheral/extra feature driven and not about the video game aspect anymore? Yeah... don't ignore half of what I'm saying to fit your agenda. That's not how things work.

The fact you're going to say you gave both consoles fair chances to win you over, and that you've already decided... even when you say we don't know much about the systems right now... is hilarious. If you're making a judgment before we know the info, you're not giving both a fair chance. You don't have to give them each a fair chance. You can get whichever you want for whichever reason you want. As another post since this has said, scotty is getting an xbox because that's what he and his friends play. And that's totally fine. Because he made his choice for his convenience and isn't claiming to give both a fair chance without all of the information being available. We don't know nearly enough about either system to say what is what. Remember when the ps3 was announced as $600 and everyone went from "WOW! THIS IS AMAZING!" to "whoa.... that's ridiculous..." The exact same could happen here. We don't know yet. That's why this is not "giving each a fair chance."

Oh yeah, and "we don't know the ps4 specs yet..." Nice try, but you're wrong.

http://mashable.com/2013/05/21/xbox-one-vs-ps4/
http://www.engadget.com/2013/05/21/x...are-and-specs/

The specs are comparable actually, with a slight edge in some aspects to the ps4 such as type of ram and GPU. But that's not exactly unheard of as the ps3 aimed to push the tech limit last time around too.

And your last paragraph... nothing in there has any relevance to a single word I said.... so I don't even see the point of bothering there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie1987 View Post
it just says we have to pay a fee to install a used game, so I'm guessing it has nothing to do with playing the game online?
great... I can imagine EA charging us another fee on top of the installation fee just to play it online

this will probably kill the used game market unless Sony lets us play used games without any fees on the ps4
The way EA has been doing it is that when you buy a new game, you have a free code you input for online play. When you buy a used game you obviously don't have this code, or don't have a new/unused one, so you can buy one for $10. That's really the only fee they've been charging. Unless they're doing something new from here on out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
Will be sticking with the 360 through the next round of consoles for sure.

Main reason..it's what me and my friends play..and in the end that's what matters.

Reports are claiming that Xbox One will require all games to be installed on the console's HDD before they can be played.
According to Wired, if owners want to use the disc with a second account they'll be asked to pay a fee and install the game from the disc, suggesting that once games are installed you won't need to insert the disc to play.


It's unclear what this means for the secondhand market, though Microsoft announced onan FAQ page (since removed) that the Xbox One is designed "to enable customers to trade in and resell games. We'll have more details to share later." It didn't reference the fees confirmed by Microsoft to Wired.
Yeah, that's going to be the interesting thing with this next gen. The "always on" feature, the used game component.... Definitely something we need to see for all of the new systems. That's probably going to be a make or break feature for some people.

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05-21-2013, 06:04 PM
  #854
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http://kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-t...cros-509140825

This bothers me quite a bit. You can't lend games to friends, or bring your game over to someone elses house to get a game of FIFA going?

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05-21-2013, 06:32 PM
  #855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperoreddy View Post
http://kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-t...cros-509140825

This bothers me quite a bit. You can't lend games to friends, or bring your game over to someone elses house to get a game of FIFA going?
Nope... everyone plays online now and never meets in person, didn't you know?

And I would really be all about moving my what will most likely be $800 console to my friends house just to get past this new wrinkle they've decided to throw at us.

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05-21-2013, 06:33 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Ripshot 43 View Post
Nope... everyone plays online now and never meets in person, didn't you know?

And I would really be all about moving my what will most likely be $800 console to my friends house just to get past this new wrinkle they've decided to throw at us.
If you sign into your Xbox profile at their house then you can use your game on their system.

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05-21-2013, 06:36 PM
  #857
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In a blog post, Major Nelson has some good news. "Should you choose to play your game at your friend’s house, there is no fee to play that game while you are signed in to your profile," Nelson wrote. The blog post also mentioned that customers will be able to trade and sell their used games at retail outlets.

However, Microsoft executive Phil Harrison, in an interview with Kotaku, has some potentially bad news. The aforementioned 'fee' to play games on a second account? Full MSRP. So unless you want to use your account for your entire family, you'll be dishing out an extra $40, $50, $60 for siblings or friends to try out new games. Harrison did tell Kotaku that his company plans to allow gamers to 'trade' their used games online somehow - though declined to get into further details.

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05-21-2013, 06:43 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Devils731 View Post
If you sign into your Xbox profile at their house then you can use your game on their system.
Interesting... That's better.

Still not liking the greed involved. Business 101 though, so what can you expect.

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05-21-2013, 07:54 PM
  #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
In a blog post, Major Nelson has some good news. "Should you choose to play your game at your friendís house, there is no fee to play that game while you are signed in to your profile," Nelson wrote. The blog post also mentioned that customers will be able to trade and sell their used games at retail outlets.

However, Microsoft executive Phil Harrison, in an interview with Kotaku, has some potentially bad news. The aforementioned 'fee' to play games on a second account? Full MSRP. So unless you want to use your account for your entire family, you'll be dishing out an extra $40, $50, $60 for siblings or friends to try out new games. Harrison did tell Kotaku that his company plans to allow gamers to 'trade' their used games online somehow - though declined to get into further details.
So basically if you go to a friend's house and log into your account you can play it. You can't lend a friend a game though it seems so not AS bad, still not great.

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05-21-2013, 07:58 PM
  #860
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For those who didn't watch the conference...


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05-21-2013, 08:00 PM
  #861
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For those who didn't watch the conference...

Dogs and it is a water cooler is what I got out of it

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05-22-2013, 11:31 AM
  #862
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Originally Posted by Emperoreddy View Post
http://kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-t...cros-509140825

This bothers me quite a bit. You can't lend games to friends, or bring your game over to someone elses house to get a game of FIFA going?
I think its pretty worrisome going down that route. I have a friend that is HUGE into gaming. Like trying to make a career in the industry huge, so he knows about just about any game out there (and he'll play most of what he can get his hands on, aside from a few specific genres like FPS and sports). A lot of the games I play or try (aside from the two genres mentioned before) are because of him, so this kind of a thing would be near impossible if either of us had that system. I get why they feel the need for it financially, but I really think they're losing sight of the benefit they gain by not alienated some of these people. I would try one game of a series thanks to a friend and if I enjoyed it, I would buy the next one when I wouldn't have ever purchased any otherwise. And I know there are plenty of others in the same boat as me. Seems a little extreme just to curb used game sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripshot 43 View Post
Nope... everyone plays online now and never meets in person, didn't you know?

And I would really be all about moving my what will most likely be $800 console to my friends house just to get past this new wrinkle they've decided to throw at us.
I don't think we'll see either console cost THAT much, mostly because I think they all learned their lesson about what the price ceiling can realistically be after the PS3's launch price. But if in that situation, that's probably the alternative I would be looking at. Buy my system, buy a decent enough travel case for it so I don't have any concerns about bringing it elsewhere, and play that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottyk9 View Post
In a blog post, Major Nelson has some good news. "Should you choose to play your game at your friendís house, there is no fee to play that game while you are signed in to your profile," Nelson wrote. The blog post also mentioned that customers will be able to trade and sell their used games at retail outlets.

However, Microsoft executive Phil Harrison, in an interview with Kotaku, has some potentially bad news. The aforementioned 'fee' to play games on a second account? Full MSRP. So unless you want to use your account for your entire family, you'll be dishing out an extra $40, $50, $60 for siblings or friends to try out new games. Harrison did tell Kotaku that his company plans to allow gamers to 'trade' their used games online somehow - though declined to get into further details.
The top half is good news, as it is a bit of a workaround that isn't too unreasonable or anything. But the bottom... that's pretty ridiculous. I'm guessing their system for "trading" games will probably involve someway to "unlicense" the game from your system. I just don't know how the logistics will work to allow someone else to buy that game, as you know they'll want to hit them up for a fee to register that copy with their system/account. Maybe they'll just find a way to monopolize the used game market for their system if they have some licensing system that GameStop can't do much about?

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05-22-2013, 04:41 PM
  #863
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VOTE!

EA SPORTS NHL
Brodeur jumps out to a strong lead. Tavares up slightly.

Can Datsyuk rally?

Vote:http://covervote.nhl.com/#/ballot

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05-22-2013, 06:31 PM
  #864
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I saw The Presidents of The United States of America in concert last night. Excellent, excellent show. I had forgotten what a therapeutic feeling it was to sing (poorly) at the top of my lungs in a small club with a couple hundred people who were doing the same. Can't quite recreate that vibe in a large arena show.

I bought tickets for the show months ago and thought of my high school buddy who first introduced me to the band. His parents were divorced and he'd spend his summers with his Dad in Seattle. When he came back to school in the Fall of 1995, he had a bunch of new CDs of various Seattle bands. Of the bunch, I liked the Presidents the most. Soon after, they started getting airplay on MTV. Back then, I was pretty much getting all of my music via MTV, so maybe for the first time ever I felt ahead of the curve.

I hadn't talked to that friend since high school (15 years ago). Our friendship had gradually dissipated since I was in honors/AP classes and he wasn't. But I thought it might be amusing to find him on Facebook and tell him how the show was.

Unfortunately a couple weeks ago, I learned through another high school that he just died in a car accident. Last night's concert ended up being a little more extra meaningful to me. Kinda rocking out in his memory.

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05-22-2013, 07:49 PM
  #865
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I'll be getting the ps4, and my gf will get the new box, and I'll have easy access to both and can play anything and be super happy.

Also I've had a 360 for a few months now, and honestly have zero preference for either system other than which one I have more friends on that play each individual game. I suspect it will be the same for this one as well.

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05-22-2013, 08:16 PM
  #866
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Most likely I'll be getting a PS4 at some point, and a WiiU at some point since I love me some Nintendo exclusives.

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05-22-2013, 09:32 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by Emperoreddy View Post
Most likely I'll be getting a PS4 at some point, and a WiiU at some point since I love me some Nintendo exclusives.
Honestly, if their systems were more in line with the type of systems sony and microsoft are putting out, I can't imagine I ever would have strayed away from nintendo. I got a ps2 anyway as opposed to an xbox or a gamecube, but the generation after nintendo could have potentially had me were they to go in a similar direction as the other two instead of what they did with the wii. Obviously it was the right move for them, and the wii u to build off that. But that's just not my cup of tea. Never been a motion sensing guy, and just couldn't justify buying a system where that's the draw. Don't think I would get enough enjoyment for the money as I would with a more traditional system (and yes, I know you can play wii games with the classic controller/limit motion sensing control systems anyway). But I love the idea of exclusives, especially a lot of the franchises nintendo has. I would have been all over those with a system more to my tastes.

I have no idea what I'll do for this next generation. I have no desire to upgrade to a new system at the time. I'm taking too much enjoyment out of my ps3 and my collection of games. I don't foresee any problems with getting new games for the next 2 years or so, but I could see them get more phased out, or more limited versions after that span. That's probably what will force me to upgrade. I'm not really in the market to shell out the cash for a new console now, but maybe a couple years from now where I'm at a disadvantage having the previous gen system I'll have more excess money to spend... or possibly less time to play where its a non-factor altogether?

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05-24-2013, 05:39 AM
  #868
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Just got tickets for a Black Keys show in July. Going to be awesome.

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05-24-2013, 03:07 PM
  #869
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Sony had a lot more eyecandy at their PS4 presentation, but half of it was tech demos. It was nice to look at, but at the same time they didn't show us any hardware. Or any UI/feature functionality. They promised a lot of really neat stuff, but couldn't show any of it working. People are acting like because Microsoft didn't show a ton of game trailers yesterday, the X1 won't have any games. Seriously?

E3 is in what, two weeks? It makes no sense for Microsoft to blow their load today, when they can get the press for the console reveal now, and then get all of the press next month when they unveil a ton of new games.

They promised 15 exclusive titles coming to the console, more than half of which are brand new IPs. Plus all of the games that developers are making for any system that can run them. Are people really freaking out because they didn't see them all now?

Yeah, no backwards compatibility. That's fine. When the 360 came out, I had one Xbox game that I really, really still wanted to pick up and play with a friend every once in a while, and that was The Warriors. And it was never added to the backwards compatibility list. I got over it.

If the Xbox One rolls around, and there's still a 360 game I desperately need to play, well, nobody is forcing me to throw away my 360. I have my original Xbox for the same reason, and not once have I pulled it out of the closet. Backwards compatibility is nice, but lack of it is not a dealbreaker. It depends entirely on how many people are giving up their consoles to save a little money on buying the Xbox One, which I presume is a very high percentage of people. Otherwise they might not be complaining about backwards compatibility to begin with.

As for used games... Ugh. This is where things get really messy. And the information about how exactly this works is even more convoluted. For real, take nothing about this as fact right now.

All games will be installed to your X1 console. The game you buy will come with a code that connects that game to your profile. If you give/sell your disc to someone else, all that gives them is the raw data to install the game. To play it, they'll need to purchase their own access code at full MSRP. This is an attempt to curb the used games industry, and it's a sore spot with a lot of gamers.

This topic is fodder for an entire article of its own (and has been), and I really don't want to rehash it here. I'm just going to address a couple of arguments.

"I'm allowed to sell the car I own. I should be able to sell the video game I own. It's my property."

When you sell a car, you get less money for it because its used. Its overall lifespan and value has decreased. The person buying your car is getting a less valuable product than you got when you bought the car brand new. It's got miles on it, maybe some dents and dings. There are unknown mechanical problems lurking under the hood that the new buyer may have to address.

There is a tangible value disparity between a brand new car, and a used car that accompanies the differences in price. However a video game that is used is exactly the same product as it was when it was new. The programming does not deteriorate. Bugs and crashes aren't going to suddenly pop up due to age. No matter how many times the game is resold, the used product remains identical to the new product.

If you walked into a car dealership and there was a brand new car sitting there for the same price as a used, beat up model of the same car, anyone in their right mind is going to take the new car for the used car price. And it's the same with used video games. Why would someone pay $60 for a game when they can get the exact same game for $40?

Except now your money is going to GameStop, not the people that made the game.

Now you can say "But they already got their money from the original sale! Car companies don't get a cut every time someone sells a used car!" That's true. But somebody shopping for a used car is not in the market for a new car. A used car buyer is not "stealing" a potential new car sale. However a used game buyer is stealing a potential new game sale. So whereas the developer might have sold two games, they have now sold one, and GameStop has sold one. It's not about ownership or "its my property", it's about used games presenting a threat to new game sales.

And you can also say "But people who buy a used game will then go on to buy other games from that developer." Sure they will. I'm sure it happens. But mostly it doesn't. That's like the people who justify their pirating of games by saying "It's only to try it! I totally go and buy the game afterwards!" Right. Again, I'm certain that happens, but more often it doesn't.

People who buy used games buy used games. When faced with the same product for cheaper, they aren't going to buy new just to support a developer. They're going to buy in favor of their wallet.

Now, you can argue the morality of used games all you want, but the bottom line is that developers feel it takes money away from their business, and so they have every right to try and combat it. The most definitive thing you can do is simply not buy the console if it's a big deal to you, but let's be honest... you were clearly going to buy the games used if that's the case, so the developers won't know the difference. They weren't getting your money either way.

But again, this whole issue needs a lot of clarification from Microsoft. I don't really care which way they go with it, but the misinformation floating around is making the situation far worse. When this came out, people were upset that you apparently couldn't take a game to a friend's house due to the restrictions. Now it turns out that you absolutely can play a game at a friend's house, you just have to sign into your profile. No big deal. But people spent a few hours going bat**** crazy about this.

This needs to be addressed before E3 in my opinion. Letting cloudy facts run rampant is doing Microsoft no favors. Even if they just come out and say "Yeah, **** your used games" so that people can just decide not to buy the console and get on with their lives.

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05-24-2013, 05:28 PM
  #870
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All I know is I won't be able to rent out Xbox One games in my store. *******s are trying to take out my business.

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05-25-2013, 08:40 AM
  #871
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I doubt you'd want people to make money off you if you created a video game.

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05-25-2013, 10:19 AM
  #872
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I doubt you'd want people to make money off you if you created a video game.
You can say that about any product that anyone has ever made. They make it, they want 100% of all revenues from it, they want a say in how its used, etc. All comes down to the medium in which you produce it for whether or not that will go over so well. People don't complain much about steam and the amount of machines you can install something on (and the way purchases are tied to an account) because its all digital. You sell someone a physical disc and then try to tell them where to play it and how much they're going to require you to pay them just to play it elsewhere... people are going to have a problem. Its a lot like buying a book and a friend having to pay the publisher $10 to read it. This is greed, not protection of their creation.

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05-25-2013, 10:25 AM
  #873
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
Sony had a lot more eyecandy at their PS4 presentation, but half of it was tech demos. It was nice to look at, but at the same time they didn't show us any hardware. Or any UI/feature functionality. They promised a lot of really neat stuff, but couldn't show any of it working. People are acting like because Microsoft didn't show a ton of game trailers yesterday, the X1 won't have any games. Seriously?

E3 is in what, two weeks? It makes no sense for Microsoft to blow their load today, when they can get the press for the console reveal now, and then get all of the press next month when they unveil a ton of new games.

They promised 15 exclusive titles coming to the console, more than half of which are brand new IPs. Plus all of the games that developers are making for any system that can run them. Are people really freaking out because they didn't see them all now?

Yeah, no backwards compatibility. That's fine. When the 360 came out, I had one Xbox game that I really, really still wanted to pick up and play with a friend every once in a while, and that was The Warriors. And it was never added to the backwards compatibility list. I got over it.

If the Xbox One rolls around, and there's still a 360 game I desperately need to play, well, nobody is forcing me to throw away my 360. I have my original Xbox for the same reason, and not once have I pulled it out of the closet. Backwards compatibility is nice, but lack of it is not a dealbreaker. It depends entirely on how many people are giving up their consoles to save a little money on buying the Xbox One, which I presume is a very high percentage of people. Otherwise they might not be complaining about backwards compatibility to begin with.

As for used games... Ugh. This is where things get really messy. And the information about how exactly this works is even more convoluted. For real, take nothing about this as fact right now.

All games will be installed to your X1 console. The game you buy will come with a code that connects that game to your profile. If you give/sell your disc to someone else, all that gives them is the raw data to install the game. To play it, they'll need to purchase their own access code at full MSRP. This is an attempt to curb the used games industry, and it's a sore spot with a lot of gamers.

This topic is fodder for an entire article of its own (and has been), and I really don't want to rehash it here. I'm just going to address a couple of arguments.

"I'm allowed to sell the car I own. I should be able to sell the video game I own. It's my property."

When you sell a car, you get less money for it because its used. Its overall lifespan and value has decreased. The person buying your car is getting a less valuable product than you got when you bought the car brand new. It's got miles on it, maybe some dents and dings. There are unknown mechanical problems lurking under the hood that the new buyer may have to address.

There is a tangible value disparity between a brand new car, and a used car that accompanies the differences in price. However a video game that is used is exactly the same product as it was when it was new. The programming does not deteriorate. Bugs and crashes aren't going to suddenly pop up due to age. No matter how many times the game is resold, the used product remains identical to the new product.

If you walked into a car dealership and there was a brand new car sitting there for the same price as a used, beat up model of the same car, anyone in their right mind is going to take the new car for the used car price. And it's the same with used video games. Why would someone pay $60 for a game when they can get the exact same game for $40?

Except now your money is going to GameStop, not the people that made the game.

Now you can say "But they already got their money from the original sale! Car companies don't get a cut every time someone sells a used car!" That's true. But somebody shopping for a used car is not in the market for a new car. A used car buyer is not "stealing" a potential new car sale. However a used game buyer is stealing a potential new game sale. So whereas the developer might have sold two games, they have now sold one, and GameStop has sold one. It's not about ownership or "its my property", it's about used games presenting a threat to new game sales.

And you can also say "But people who buy a used game will then go on to buy other games from that developer." Sure they will. I'm sure it happens. But mostly it doesn't. That's like the people who justify their pirating of games by saying "It's only to try it! I totally go and buy the game afterwards!" Right. Again, I'm certain that happens, but more often it doesn't.

People who buy used games buy used games. When faced with the same product for cheaper, they aren't going to buy new just to support a developer. They're going to buy in favor of their wallet.

Now, you can argue the morality of used games all you want, but the bottom line is that developers feel it takes money away from their business, and so they have every right to try and combat it. The most definitive thing you can do is simply not buy the console if it's a big deal to you, but let's be honest... you were clearly going to buy the games used if that's the case, so the developers won't know the difference. They weren't getting your money either way.

But again, this whole issue needs a lot of clarification from Microsoft. I don't really care which way they go with it, but the misinformation floating around is making the situation far worse. When this came out, people were upset that you apparently couldn't take a game to a friend's house due to the restrictions. Now it turns out that you absolutely can play a game at a friend's house, you just have to sign into your profile. No big deal. But people spent a few hours going bat**** crazy about this.

This needs to be addressed before E3 in my opinion. Letting cloudy facts run rampant is doing Microsoft no favors. Even if they just come out and say "Yeah, **** your used games" so that people can just decide not to buy the console and get on with their lives.

This is why I prefer PC's.

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05-25-2013, 11:31 AM
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05-26-2013, 04:02 AM
  #875
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