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The Lockout Thread UPD 1/6 - framework of new CBA agreed to

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Old
10-27-2012, 12:41 AM
  #151
Barrie22
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Originally Posted by endy View Post
at what point is the season essentially canceled? end of nov?
Last one i believe was officially cancelled feb 14th (weird day). Could be wrong on the day but i remember reading it was february that the season was cancelled.

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10-27-2012, 02:46 PM
  #152
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I had to come here to personally praise Jason Demers! He's just awesome, great attitude, excellent in both ends of the ice. He's already become one of the fans' favorite players of our hometown club Kärpät. It's not really exaggeration to say he's the best defenseman of all-time after Reijo Ruotsalainen here. I will definitely watch many Sharks' games after the lockout only because of Demers. If you happen to read Hfboards, thank you for coming to really cold Oulu from the heat of California!

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10-27-2012, 04:59 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Muhkea View Post
I had to come here to personally praise Jason Demers! He's just awesome, great attitude, excellent in both ends of the ice. He's already become one of the fans' favorite players of our hometown club Kärpät. It's not really exaggeration to say he's the best defenseman of all-time after Reijo Ruotsalainen here. I will definitely watch many Sharks' games after the lockout only because of Demers. If you happen to read Hfboards, thank you for coming to really cold Oulu from the heat of California!
Wish I was watching him play for the Sharks though.

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Old
10-27-2012, 10:12 PM
  #154
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So aggravated why do I keep checking daily to see if any progress has been made :banghead this whole lockout is driving me insane. Thing that makes me most upset is the nhl doesnt seem to have any emergency to get this resolved. By bettmans comments about the fans it feels like the nhl just assumes the fans will be back no matter what after this lockout so why rush to get a de when the fans will be back anyways

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Old
10-28-2012, 03:38 PM
  #155
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fyuh...layer_embedded

Couture between the legs goal yesterday

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Old
10-28-2012, 05:21 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Yvanoe View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fyuh...layer_embedded

Couture between the legs goal yesterday
Juicy!!!!

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10-28-2012, 05:57 PM
  #157
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Juicy!!!!
And the guy he took the puck from, with flames on his helmet, is ... Rick Nash !

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Old
10-29-2012, 05:55 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Muhkea View Post
I had to come here to personally praise Jason Demers! He's just awesome, great attitude, excellent in both ends of the ice. He's already become one of the fans' favorite players of our hometown club Kärpät. It's not really exaggeration to say he's the best defenseman of all-time after Reijo Ruotsalainen here. I will definitely watch many Sharks' games after the lockout only because of Demers. If you happen to read Hfboards, thank you for coming to really cold Oulu from the heat of California!
I am glad you guys are enjoying him. He got all kinds of flak here and people were saying that Justin Braun had somehow leaped him on the chart here. Which is just, lol

Moving Jason to the left side was a big mistake here. He really accels and is very creative on the right side of the ice. You get the puck on this guys stick when he's coming down thru the right side high slot and good things are going to happen offensively.

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Old
10-29-2012, 12:21 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by exchequer View Post
I'm surprised there hasn't been a bigger fan movement to boycott the NHL. I have personally vowed not to attend any games or purchase ANY NHL related merchandise for at least 1 entire year if even one single NHL game was cancelled as part of the lockout festivities.

You could argue that it's not a true boycott because I'll probably still watch the game on TV and follow it through the news, but it doesn't cost me a single penny to that.

Maybe it's time that fans band together. Just imagine how powerful the NHLFA (National Hockey League Fan Association) would be. The HRR split decision would be a petty thing if we threatened to withhold a significant amount of HRR.
I sort of did that, but that's because I was pissed at the Sharks for raising prices again after another year filled with boring games and being thumped in the playoffs.

Right now I'm just pissed off. These people are all idiots and I hate them. I wish there were some way I could boycott them without actually giving up hockey and the Sharks...

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Old
10-29-2012, 02:14 PM
  #160
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Maybe the lockout is a grand conspiracy by Bettman to grow the game in Europe.

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Old
10-29-2012, 04:09 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by SactoShark View Post
It's so obvious that the league has no leverage at all. The quicker they come to terms with the fact they failed miserably with their planned extortion, the quicker this whole thing will move along.
Sorry, but the side with little leverage here is the player's union. Unfortunately, Donald Fehr has bamboozled the players into thinking they have more leverage than they really do, so he can feed his ego. They have none. They are not going to get a better deal than the one just offered and every day this lockout continues is on them.

I don't think there will be any hockey played this season, as DF's ego isn't going to let him cave until sometime next summer. Fehr has already started the inevitable whining right on cue, which will grow steadily louder over the next few months until he sounds like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum because he can't have another lolipop. Next summer, the players will sign for what they could have gotten two weeks ago and we would have wasted a year of everyone's time, career, and return on investment. Everyone will lose and the players won't have gained anything over what they could get right now.

Sucks, but that's the reality of the economics involved. The players don't have the leverage and they are the ones that have the power to stop this. Anyone who thinks the owners are going to cave and agree to anything materially worse for them than this last proposal is delusional.

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10-29-2012, 05:15 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Sorry, but the side with little leverage here is the player's union. Unfortunately, Donald Fehr has bamboozled the players into thinking they have more leverage than they really do, so he can feed his ego. They have none. They are not going to get a better deal than the one just offered and every day this lockout continues is on them.

I don't think there will be any hockey played this season, as DF's ego isn't going to let him cave until sometime next summer. Fehr has already started the inevitable whining right on cue, which will grow steadily louder over the next few months until he sounds like a 3 year old throwing a tantrum because he can't have another lolipop. Next summer, the players will sign for what they could have gotten two weeks ago and we would have wasted a year of everyone's time, career, and return on investment. Everyone will lose and the players won't have gained anything over what they could get right now.

Sucks, but that's the reality of the economics involved. The players don't have the leverage and they are the ones that have the power to stop this. Anyone who thinks the owners are going to cave and agree to anything materially worse for them than this last proposal is delusional.
I totally agree. Though, one change is that the players will get a couple of token gestures (rule changes, slight change in how the money is distributed, etc) and call it a critical piece of the deal and why they could not get it done until now, to save face.

Both parties are greedy, the owners are the ones taking ALL of the risk in a sport that is a distant 4th to the other major sporting leagues revenue wise. The players are just dragging this out and the only ones paying the price are the fans.

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Old
10-29-2012, 06:25 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by hockeyball View Post
I totally agree. Though, one change is that the players will get a couple of token gestures (rule changes, slight change in how the money is distributed, etc) and call it a critical piece of the deal and why they could not get it done until now, to save face.

Both parties are greedy, the owners are the ones taking ALL of the risk in a sport that is a distant 4th to the other major sporting leagues revenue wise. The players are just dragging this out and the only ones paying the price are the fans.
Several issues emphasize the point of relative loss. It has been pointed out on the BOH forum that if the players actually got the league to accept one of their last proposals that they would have already lost the amount in this year's salary that they gave up to get it. If they had accepted the league's last proposal with no games lost, they would be ahead just due to lost games as long as a linked system is maintained. I have a strong suspicion that Fehr wants to get rid of the linked system as a matter of principle.

In terms of day-to-day losses, the owners have the leverage by a mile. A reasonable estimate is that they will expend $450mil to maintain the infrastructure of the NHL for one year without hockey. Previously, they gained about $120mil as profit for the entire league. That is $570mil of loss if they go the whole year without hockey. The players lose roughly $1.6bil (owners' worst proposal) if they go a year without hockey. The players are losing at a rate of about 3 times the owners. Even if you throw in franchise values, the sport would have to take a huge hit in popularity. Total franchise value is roughly $6bil ($200mil/team, some teams higher, some lower). You would have to be talking about hits of $1bil leaguewide to have the owners even pulling equal with the players in losses. And they can get the franchise value back in a heartbeat with a more favorable CBA.

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Old
10-29-2012, 06:48 PM
  #164
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Fehr is an egomaniac who is providing horrible advice to the players. I really feel for the players in that regard, as I think they're a bunch of hard working, not too bright, average joes that have been manipulated by a couple of fast talking lawyers. They don't have economics or leverage on their side, and those are the two things that matter most in a negotiation like this. At the end of the day, the huge debacle that this will undoubtedly end up becoming will be 99% the responsibility of the Fehr brothers. And when it's all over and everyone but them have lost a lot, they'll still get paid and undoubtedly walk off into the sunset blaming the ownership group for everything. Unfortunately, that will probably happen in September of 2013, at the earliest.

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Old
10-29-2012, 06:55 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
Fehr is an egomaniac who is providing horrible advice to the players. I really feel for the players in that regard, as I think they're a bunch of hard working, not too bright, average joes that have been manipulated by a couple of fast talking lawyers. They don't have economics or leverage on their side, and those are the two things that matter most in a negotiation like this. At the end of the day, the huge debacle that this will undoubtedly end up becoming will be 99% the responsibility of the Fehr brothers. And when it's all over and everyone but them have lost a lot, they'll still get paid and undoubtedly walk off into the sunset blaming the ownership group for everything. Unfortunately, that will probably happen in September of 2013, at the earliest.
One of the early player appearances in the negotiations was Parros. Parros has a degree in economics from Princeton. I would dearly like him to give his candid thoughts although I think that the chances of that are remote. The guys who do have the education haven't been particularly vocal lately (Parros, Murray, Moore . . . ).

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Old
10-29-2012, 06:56 PM
  #166
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Is it possible for the players to fire the Fehr brothers for failing to get a deal done?
Maybe they can exercise this ability right before the season is in danger of being cancelled entirely?

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Old
10-29-2012, 07:01 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by UniversalRemonster View Post
Is it possible for the players to fire the Fehr brothers for failing to get a deal done?
Maybe they can exercise this ability right before the season is in danger of being cancelled entirely?
They can fire them whenever they want, just like the owners can fire bettman any time they want. But neither are going to happen unless something major happens in these negotiations where the firing would then be seen as a saving face by getting rid of the leader.

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10-29-2012, 07:34 PM
  #168
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What bothers me also is how much Fehr and the player reps keep using the word 'fair.' "We want what's fair..." blah blah. People can debate what split is "fair" until the cows come home, but all that matters is what you can negotiate. There are no moral concessions in these negotiations.

The players need an advisor that is skilled enough to negotiate the maximum amount possible, but also wise enough to know what that amount is, so they provide good advice on when to take the deal. Fehr is obviously clueless on the second part of that equation or he would be negotiating right now off of the owner's latest proposal.

And as much as the owner's initial proposal was a draconian mistake, Fehr's decision to wait until the last minute to spring an entirely different blueprint for hockey on the owners was just as bad. Worse is that he still seems to think the owners will even entertain a discussion about it, much less negotiate off of it.

The owners have put a proposal out there that is a basically an update of the current CBA and have stated that it is the framework they are willing to negotiate from. Fehr is unwilling to do that unless the owners entertain his alternative approach, which simply isn't going to happen. It doesn't happen in other union dominated industries, it hasn't happened in the other major sports, and it isn't going to happen in hockey. He is literally just wasting everybody's time by hanging onto this hope of pushing his alternative proposals. He needs to just say, okay we'll negotiate off your proposal, but we don't like X, Y and Z, etc. Let's barter.

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10-30-2012, 03:54 AM
  #169
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I can't say I understand why people keep pushing the idea that the "players have no leverage" ... I mean they are working and earning money aren't they?

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10-30-2012, 10:32 AM
  #170
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I can't say I understand why people keep pushing the idea that the "players have no leverage" ... I mean they are working and earning money aren't they?
The majority of them are sitting on their ass watching tv

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10-30-2012, 11:13 AM
  #171
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I can't say I understand why people keep pushing the idea that the "players have no leverage" ... I mean they are working and earning money aren't they?
A small percentage of them, the superstars, are working. For a fraction of what they could get from the owners right now. And they're doing so half way around the world, far away from their families. And the owners are well aware of all this. The players have zero leverage in this situation. They will have a little bit of leverage 12-18 months from now, but by then the owners will have lost so much money and be so pissed off, that it won't matter.

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10-30-2012, 11:32 AM
  #172
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I can't say I understand why people keep pushing the idea that the "players have no leverage" ... I mean they are working and earning money aren't they?
have you actually seen the costs of the teams/players that are needed for those players to be playing in other leagues while this lockout is on?

most of them are not even making enough money in there new respective leagues to cover the insurance to cover the contract they have with the nhl team.

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10-30-2012, 01:56 PM
  #173
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Let alone what it is costing all the poor Joe's who are out of work because they work for the arena's. Honestly the security, concessions, and administrative staff that make hockey happen behind the scenes are the ones most hurt by all this.

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Old
10-30-2012, 03:17 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Stickmata View Post
A small percentage of them, the superstars, are working. For a fraction of what they could get from the owners right now. And they're doing so half way around the world, far away from their families. And the owners are well aware of all this. The players have zero leverage in this situation. They will have a little bit of leverage 12-18 months from now, but by then the owners will have lost so much money and be so pissed off, that it won't matter.
in 12-18 months the NHL will hire scabs

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10-30-2012, 07:09 PM
  #175
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in 12-18 months the NHL will hire scabs
I agree. I think the tipping point will be late next summer. With another lost season looming, I think the owners will look for replacement players for the 2013-2014 season.

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