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Who's side are you on if you were forced to pick sides? The owners? ... or the NHLPA?

View Poll Results: Who's side are you on if you were forced to pick sides? The owners? ... or the NHLPA?
The owners 144 48.65%
The NHLPA 152 51.35%
Voters: 296. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-15-2012, 09:22 PM
  #426
habsfanatics
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I'm with the owners here, not that it matters to me, really, but most who argue in defense of the players, do so, based on the fact they made concessions the last negotiations. To me, that has nothing to do with the current negotiations, the players were extremely overpaid taking something like 70+ % of the revenue, now they are just overpaid. There needs to be a reduction.

Aside from that, the players are in a no win situation, they will lose more money from games lost than they ever will recoup from a favorable deal. The money they are losing is gone forever, they are their own worst enemies imo. If i was losing my 9million dollar paycheck for the sake of a few %, I'd be pissed. Time for them to wake up. The longer it goes, the more they lose and it will only get worse for them, the more games lost, the less likely the owners will make concessions of their own. The players aren't the brightest bunch, that's for sure.

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Old
10-15-2012, 09:31 PM
  #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
They wouldn't be owners, they'd be members of a worker cooperative - a very viable alternative to mainstream capitalist enterprises.
Communist Hockey League?

Even the KHL believes in Capitalism and they are in Russia.

Some good could come from the CHL komrade. Montreal could send Gomez to the gulag for 10 years of hard labor breaking rocks.

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Old
10-15-2012, 09:31 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
I understand that the current NHL revenue sharing deal distributes 4.5% of revenue from the top ten revenue producing teams to the bottom 15 revenue producing teams. That's just pathetic. A far better system would be:

All NHL broadcast deals would be shared equally.

Income from all licensing deals would be shared equally.

All ticket revenue would be shared by a 60/40 split where the home team gets 60% of the gate.
Even the owners of the KHL , many of whom have probably lived in communism, would consider this unthinkably red. Unworkable in any level of business more sophisticated than a lemonade stand.

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Old
10-15-2012, 09:56 PM
  #429
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Originally Posted by bsl View Post
You are equating small capital with big capital. I have absolutely nothing against hard working small and medium business owners who support staff and pay tax. I admire them.

The people who own NHL teams are not in that group. Not even close.

The occupiers might have been a bit retarded, but they were not wrong. They are worried about BIG capital, where the decent and fair rules of capitalism don't apply. That is who the NHL owners are. Wake up.
Here is something that may surprise you. Probably will not change your mind but it will allow other people to see that the "owners" are not slave masters who were handed everything to them on the backs of poor tax payers.


Henry Samueli (born September 20, 1954 in Buffalo, New York) is co-founder, chairman of the board, and chief technology officer of Broadcom Corporation, owner of the Anaheim Ducks.

Samueli's parents, Sala and Aron, were Polish Jewish immigrants who survived Nazi Europe and arrived in the United States with almost nothing. Samueli stocked shelves in his family's Los Angeles liquor store and graduated from Bancroft Junior High School and Fairfax High School. Samueli became interested in electronics when he took a shop class at Bancroft.

Samueli attended UCLA, where he received his bachelor's degree (1975), master's degree (1976), and Ph.D (1980), all in the field of electrical engineering.

In 1991, while still working as a professor at UCLA, Samueli co-founded his company, Broadcom Corporation, with one of his former students, Henry Nicholas. Each invested $5,000 and worked out of Nicholas' Redondo Beach home, moving to Irvine four years later and took the firm public three years after that.

Peter Karmanos, Jr. (born March 11, 1943) is the CEO of Compuware Corporation and owner of the Carolina Hurricanes, Plymouth Whalers and Florida Everblades hockey franchises.

Born into a Greek immigrant family, Karmanos did not start speaking English until he was in grade school. He graduated from Wayne State University and founded Compuware, a software company based in Detroit in 1973, with two partners, Thomas Thewes and Allen Cutting.

A graduate of Cooley High School in Detroit, Michigan, Mike Ilitch entered the U.S. Marine Corps for four years. After his return home to Detroit, the Detroit Tigers offered him $3000 if he would sign to play baseball, and Ilitch had a four-year minor league career from 1952-1955.

After leaving baseball, Ilitch started a pizza business in 1959. With the help of his wife, Marian, the Ilitches opened Little Caesars Pizza Treat in Garden City, Michigan, the first of what would become many thousands of restaurants through franchising.

Ilitch is an avid sports fan, and in 1982, he and Marian purchased the struggling Detroit Red Wings.



And there are many other stories about other NHL owners who were smart and inventive businessmen who started with very little and turned that into fortunes.

No need to be envious of ordinary people with ideas.

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Old
10-15-2012, 10:26 PM
  #430
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I've just decided I'm going to miss hockey a lot this year.

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Old
10-15-2012, 10:34 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
The owners asked to reduce the players to 43% this lockout, and they'll ask for an even lower number next lockout. It's common sense. The players have to draw a line in the sand and say they won't expect a massive rollback every five years, otherwise they'll eventually be reduced to zero.
The owners latest offer had a bigger slice of the pie than 43% for the players. Funny though, owners want 57% and then negotiate down = greedy. Players want 57% and refuse to change it = I'm on their side!!!

Weird logic you got there.

Also owners want a lower number? You don't say. I also want ferraris to be 15$ each but some things won't happen. You guys are saying they'll actually negotiate till 25%. What are you talking about? They just gave players 57%!!! The share went up every year in last CBA but share is trending down till 25%? Wtf.

I'm not even arguing that its not feasible as other major leagues make about 50-50. 2-3% off? Sure. Not 25%. Is that what it's come to? Making up false demands from owners? While we're at it I heard players will demand to eat my children on the next CBA. Trust me, I have no proof that they ask for that but it's trending there!


Last edited by LyricalLyricist: 10-15-2012 at 10:42 PM.
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Old
10-15-2012, 10:36 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
The 50/50 split DOES apply to this situation because you have two distinct entities, the Owners and the Players. They each want a "fair" share of the revenue pie. The Players were "insulted" by the Owners offering them the reversal of the current pie split, so it would seem obvious that the Players feel it is an unfair split. As such, they should accept that it is equally unfair from the Owners perspective and return to the table with a counter proposal that brings balance to both sides. So far, the Players are not even offering a counter proposal. How is that a partnership if you are not even willing to negotiate with your supposed partner when he can demonstrate that the share of th pie is unfair and needs to be readjusted?

It is not sustainable because the owners have shown that they will not continue to run the league with that kind of split. That is why they have locked the players out, and they have a point. It is not sustainable because the owners do not feel it is fair, and they are right.

The Players need to get onboard with the fiscal relity that you can not have a partnership with one side paying all the costs and the other side reaping a larger portion of all of the profits without incurring any of the actual hockey related costs. It is just not realistic for that kind of system to continue
I'm still not seeing any argument for why the current split (or, more to the point, the concessions offered by the NHLPA) "is not sustainable" or how it has been demonstrated "that the share of th pie is unfair and needs to be readjusted?" The argument that "it is not sustainable because the owners do not feel it is fair" is pretty close to the argument offered by Bettman, that "the fact is, we believe that 57 percent of HRR is too much" - basically, that the owners want more, believe they can get it, and don't actually need a reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
I never said it did. Free agent spending doesn't affect the share, but it certainly affects the players' salaries. The point being made was that reducing the overall share in the short term will not be problematic in the long term as we have just seen over the last CBA. As long as revenues continue to grow and the salary cap continues to grow because of that revenue growth, the players will continue to see their overall salaries grow. So, to take a reduced salary today, and watch the overall pie grow tomorrow, it means that, long term, your financial reality grows, even if your percentage starts a lower. As it is right now, the players are currently getting 0% of anything because they are locked out.
In a cost certainty league, free agency only affects salaries as far as which players get paid when. It's really irrelevant to your other point that revenues for everyone involved can be expected to grow. Of course, that latter point applies to owners as well as players, so I don't see how that's relevant either...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Clarify what you mean by the partnership extending to the rules, relocation and policy decisions. Unless you are saying that the Players should have equal say in all business aspects of the NHL, at which point the Players better be willing to also accept paying 50% of all Hockey related costs, as well.
Hahaha, wellll, in that case, the owners would be entirely out of the picture!

That appears to be your main argument, that owners have expenses, so they should be allowed to dictate the terms of the CBA. My responses:

- Mirtle has the owners collectively making $280mil profit in 2010-11. So, revenues, even after the hockey teams play their hockey players, outweigh those expenses.

- Team values go up, almost across the board. The two exceptions I can find: the Phoenix affair, where the BOG blocked Moyes from making a huge profit on the sale, and Tampa, where Koules and Barrie messed up so badly that profiting from the situation would have been ridiculous. Other than that, owners have enormous paydays waiting for them, non-HRR of course.

- Every sports team owner in every sport got into the game already fantastically wealthy, for reasons other than moneymaking. They basically want a thrill, and are willing to pay for it (at least at first). Geoff Molson has expenses, so he (and you) decides it would be right for Travis Moen to give back a quarter of the contract Molson just signed him to? Cry me a river. If Molson doesn't want to pay the bills, there are plenty of other billionaires who would love to buy his toy.

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Old
10-15-2012, 10:52 PM
  #433
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I'm against Bettman. I think his ego is what's behind it this time around. There was no reason that he had to cancel the season.

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Old
10-16-2012, 04:04 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by airic000 View Post
I'm against Bettman. I think his ego is what's behind it this time around. There was no reason that he had to cancel the season.
Is there any evidence that Bettman is actually the incompetent ******* some fans make him out to be, rather than just being an effective man at doing the job he's expected to do?

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10-16-2012, 04:13 AM
  #435
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
No need to be envious of ordinary people with ideas.
Says the guy who keeps complaining the players make too much money.

FYI I don't "envy" any of the entities involved. "Envy" is for losers who sit in their mothers' basements with no future. Some of them I "respect". "Respect" is for people with prospects who have ambitions.

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10-16-2012, 04:20 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
The owners latest offer had a bigger slice of the pie than 43% for the players. Funny though, owners want 57% and then negotiate down = greedy. Players want 57% and refuse to change it = I'm on their side!!!

Weird logic you got there.

Also owners want a lower number? You don't say. I also want ferraris to be 15$ each but some things won't happen. You guys are saying they'll actually negotiate till 25%. What are you talking about? They just gave players 57%!!! The share went up every year in last CBA but share is trending down till 25%? Wtf.

I'm not even arguing that its not feasible as other major leagues make about 50-50. 2-3% off? Sure. Not 25%. Is that what it's come to? Making up false demands from owners? While we're at it I heard players will demand to eat my children on the next CBA. Trust me, I have no proof that they ask for that but it's trending there!
The owners won the last set of negotiations. The players are now getting ~57% of revenue, but they used to be getting ~71% before the last lockout. They reduced the players share of total revenue -- that's a victory for the owners. If they win this negotiation that will form a trend, and then there will be new negotiations every five years.

But hey, you want a 50/50 split because it's symmetric: 50% for 29 owners, and 50% for 600 players. Yeah, very symmetric.

With that said, I would be in favor of a 50/50 split if it came as a 25-year agreement with revenue sharing. If it's a 5-year agreement with no increased revenue sharing, then I am against, because we are guaranteed to have another lockout in five years in that case. I've lost count of how many work stoppages there have been in my lifetime. As it is the NHL was doing great here, revenues are up 80% in 7 years or so, that's a great business model, and yet the owners forced yet another lockout.


Last edited by DAChampion: 10-16-2012 at 05:37 AM.
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Old
10-16-2012, 06:29 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Is there any evidence that Bettman is actually the incompetent ******* some fans make him out to be, rather than just being an effective man at doing the job he's expected to do?
Three lockouts in less than 20 years. Constant behind-the-scenes upheaval. Failing franchises left and right.

What are you smoking? He's been atrocious in every way.

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10-16-2012, 06:34 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Three lockouts in less than 20 years. Constant behind-the-scenes upheaval. Failing franchises left and right.

What are you smoking? He's been atrocious in every way.
That may be what the owners want. After all, they have chosen to leave him in place.

ETA: Why are you only looking at the bad and ignoring the good? League revenues are up 80% in 7 years or so, and the players share has declined from ~72% to 57% of revenue and will now decline again. It's never been a better time to be an NHL owner.


Last edited by DAChampion: 10-16-2012 at 06:43 AM.
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Old
10-16-2012, 07:25 AM
  #439
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Is there any evidence that Bettman is actually the incompetent ******* some fans make him out to be, rather than just being an effective man at doing the job he's expected to do?
I'm not saying Bettman is an idiot but he clearly does not represent the interests of the game of hockey. All he cares about is the owners he represents and his own legacy. The real reason there are teams out there that are failing (and everyone knows it) is because he's stuck teams in non-hockey markets and refuses to concede that he was wrong about hockey in the southern states. Now everyone has to pay for it (ie. the players, the owners in big markets, and the fans) because he expects others to take on a greater portion of the burden that he himself created.

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Old
10-16-2012, 08:53 AM
  #440
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To answer the original poster, I am not on anyone's side.

I just want to watch hockey. The dollars and cents, and how they split up the pie are of no interest to me.

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Old
10-16-2012, 08:59 AM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
By the way, do you think you can post without being insulting to people who disagree with you? We are not "brainwashed", we ARE "awake", we are not "mugs", we simply see things differently than you do and at least we provide some kind of support for our positions. Man, some of the guys supporting the players seem really good at trying to demean others for having a different point of view because they argue from emotion without support.

Read around and see what many experts, former players, fans, and others are saying. The players claim to be in a partnership, but are unwilling to accept the same split of the pie as the owners currently have. Why? They feel it is unfair. Why are the owners at fault for believing the same thing? Especially when they pay every single hockey related cost associated with the team! Man, talk about hypocrisy: "If I get 5|% and you, as my partner get 43%, it is fair because I have talent. If you get 57% and I get 43% as your partner, it is unfair because you are greedy billionaires who don't pay taxes and eat babies". Heck, think of how unfair this whole thing will be to those players who lose an entire year of their livelihood that they will never be able to replace so that superstars who don't have to worry about money or contracts can get a larger piece of the pie? If the players follow Fehr's stupidity and lose a year before coming to terms with the owners, they lose far more money than if they take a pay cut now. Go read what McKenzie wrote about it on TSN.ca and you will see what the fiscal realities are.

Also, please try to get your points across witht demeaning others for disagreeing with you. We could all be insulting, but where would that get us?
Dryden I respect every guy on this board, no worries. After 4 beers I rant a bit, but I do respect all the posters here. No probs if posters here disagree with me, the debate is fun. My style is too abrasive sometimes, but it is NEVER meant to be personal.

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10-16-2012, 09:02 AM
  #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Is there any evidence that Bettman is actually the incompetent ******* some fans make him out to be, rather than just being an effective man at doing the job he's expected to do?
If his job is to be an ass and ruin what was once a great game, he's doing a fantastic job!

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10-16-2012, 09:03 AM
  #443
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Communist Hockey League?
You equate cooperatives with communism? There are over 300 successful worker coops in the US employing thousands of members and generating hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue.


Last edited by rafal majka: 10-16-2012 at 09:09 AM.
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10-16-2012, 09:05 AM
  #444
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Even the owners of the KHL , many of whom have probably lived in communism, would consider this unthinkably red. Unworkable in any level of business more sophisticated than a lemonade stand.
All NHL broadcast deals would be shared equally.

Income from all licensing deals would be shared equally.

All ticket revenue would be shared by a 60/40 split where the home team gets 60% of the gate.


I guess the NFL is a "communist lemonade stand" as the above is their exact revenue sharing plan.

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10-16-2012, 09:18 AM
  #445
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I'm still not seeing any argument for why the current split (or, more to the point, the concessions offered by the NHLPA) "is not sustainable" or how it has been demonstrated "that the share of th pie is unfair and needs to be readjusted?" The argument that "it is not sustainable because the owners do not feel it is fair" is pretty close to the argument offered by Bettman, that "the fact is, we believe that 57 percent of HRR is too much" - basically, that the owners want more, believe they can get it, and don't actually need a reason.

In a cost certainty league, free agency only affects salaries as far as which players get paid when. It's really irrelevant to your other point that revenues for everyone involved can be expected to grow. Of course, that latter point applies to owners as well as players, so I don't see how that's relevant either...



Hahaha, wellll, in that case, the owners would be entirely out of the picture!

That appears to be your main argument, that owners have expenses, so they should be allowed to dictate the terms of the CBA. My responses:

- Mirtle has the owners collectively making $280mil profit in 2010-11. So, revenues, even after the hockey teams play their hockey players, outweigh those expenses.

- Team values go up, almost across the board. The two exceptions I can find: the Phoenix affair, where the BOG blocked Moyes from making a huge profit on the sale, and Tampa, where Koules and Barrie messed up so badly that profiting from the situation would have been ridiculous. Other than that, owners have enormous paydays waiting for them, non-HRR of course.

- Every sports team owner in every sport got into the game already fantastically wealthy, for reasons other than moneymaking. They basically want a thrill, and are willing to pay for it (at least at first). Geoff Molson has expenses, so he (and you) decides it would be right for Travis Moen to give back a quarter of the contract Molson just signed him to? Cry me a river. If Molson doesn't want to pay the bills, there are plenty of other billionaires who would love to buy his toy.

I admire intelligence. Good post.

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10-16-2012, 09:22 AM
  #446
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Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Three lockouts in less than 20 years. Constant behind-the-scenes upheaval. Failing franchises left and right.

What are you smoking? He's been atrocious in every way.
You are correct sir. Bettman has a difficult job to be sure, but the part of his job he has forgotten, or willfully neglected, is to keep the NHL playing, and visible, every year.

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10-16-2012, 09:29 AM
  #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impudent_lowlife View Post
All NHL broadcast deals would be shared equally.

Income from all licensing deals would be shared equally.

All ticket revenue would be shared by a 60/40 split where the home team gets 60% of the gate.


I guess the NFL is a "communist lemonade stand" as the above is their exact revenue sharing plan.
Hee hee. Agnostic you got what you deserved with this response. Your post was tea party foolish, sorry to say.

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10-16-2012, 09:38 AM
  #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Three lockouts in less than 20 years. Constant behind-the-scenes upheaval. Failing franchises left and right.

What are you smoking? He's been atrocious in every way.
I understand that Bettman only needs the approval of 8 owners to implement any particular strategy he may have. So it's not just Bettman's fault but includes the Cabal of Eight which wants an emasculated NHLPA reminiscent of the days of Alan Eagleson.

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10-16-2012, 10:14 AM
  #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiskeySeven View Post
Three lockouts in less than 20 years. Constant behind-the-scenes upheaval. Failing franchises left and right.

What are you smoking? He's been atrocious in every way.
The funny thing is that Bettman is usually among the most despised men in hockey during the season, but is currently drawing new fans by locking out the players...

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10-16-2012, 11:41 AM
  #450
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Players have condeeded a fair amount and have proposed continuing under the previous CBA, while the owners are responsible for the dwindling markets that are taking away profits.

Whether you dislike the fact the players make so much money, what is happening right now is all on the owners IMO.

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