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Old
10-06-2012, 02:17 PM
  #76
Oilin Toronto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
When have I said anything about Turris' (or Gagner) previous seasons?

Fine, Gagner: 49, 41, 41, 42, 47 points. Average = 44 points

Gagner isn't even a 45 point player let alone 50 point
He's still averaging 20pts more than Turris.

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10-06-2012, 02:21 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Your post proved Gagner was better offensively last year, and previous. I could cherry pick stats to prove Sundin was better then Gretzky, but it doesn't make it true.

Fact is Turris has yet to even match Gagner's worst offensive season.
My post proved that were similar as it is, and that considering other factors, a case could be made for Turris being better. Did you read it? Doesn't seem like you did.

Gagner's worst season was 0.539 ppg, which Turris beat easily last year.

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
You don't know what you're talking about. They completely misused him, which is why Renney got fired. He was stuck with scrubs a lot, and started one year on the 4th line.

See what I did there. Difference is Gagner went through similar experience, and still scored more points.

Fact is Turris has proven little yet as a offensive player. He is closer to suspect, then offensive prospect.
Well, no. If you think Penner was a scrub then maybe. Turris played with much worse players, and most importantly, for a longer period of time.

A few shifts here and there for Gagner on the 4th line is no big deal. Gagner had much more PP time.

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Most teams, as in the top 7-8 teams in the league maybe. Wait... is less then 1/3 most teams?
Senators, Bruins, Leafs, Sabres and Canadiens in the NE do. Should I go on? You're 100% wrong, there are maybe 5 teams, and they all suck

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Sounds familiar... Filatov was it? I am pretty sure careers do matter, and fact is Turris has proven very little in his.

You are backing your argument with more of your opinion and excuses then fact.
er, excuse me, what ''facts'' do you have other than Gagner has clearly not progressed since stepping into the league as an 18 year old. You have nothing other than his 5 40 point seasons. Turris has 1 good season, but many other factors that make him a better player.

One is trending up, the other is remaining stagnate.

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Shouldn't Turris score more then 29 points first? Right now Tyler Bozak is a closer definition to a 40-50 point shutdown centre.

lol at "similar offensively..."
Turris easily had the ppg once he got out of Phoenix and is only trending upwards.

He finished the season strong. His ppg would have easily been higher had he played the whole season and not missed training camp.

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10-06-2012, 02:23 PM
  #78
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To be fair in Penners best season he played with Cogliano and Brule mostly.

Gagner has had good linemates but he's been used in some odd situations as well (playing RW with Belanger, starting 09/10 on the 4th line)

I just don't think Turris' defensive play makes up for the gap in offense.

Either way neither team does this trade. We have Schultz already anyways.

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10-06-2012, 02:23 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
He's still averaging 20pts more than Turris.
With many more games played, with better linemates. cool story bro

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10-06-2012, 02:24 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
Turris isn't even a 30pt player. I'm sure he makes it up in other areas, and is a solid 2nd line C.

This guy's numbers ooze 4th line.

Gagner got his points playing with some aweful players, on the worst team in the league for the past couple of years.
i believe he had about the same ppg as gagner when given te same top six minutes this year.

wonder what that says about gagner than

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10-06-2012, 02:27 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
You are wrong: most teams do not use their 2nd line C in shutdown matchups. Some weaker teams that have difficulty with opposing team's great line would, but overall 2nd line C are not intended to play shutdown role. I'm afraid you're the clueless one!!!

If I had the time, i'd list all of the 2nd line C in the league, and make you tell me which one of them plays on the shutdown line. I also want you to tell me where Turris would rank amongst those 2nd line C's.
Yes they do.

Sens, Leafs, Habs, Bruins, Sabres, Flyers, Devils, Islanders, Rangers, Jets, Hurricanes, Panthers. Not the Pens they used Staal, but effectively not a 3rd liner. That's just the East. Should I go on?

I'm not talking just 2nd line centres, I'm talking 1st or 2nd line centres used against other top lines.



Seriously though, you're arguing this? Kesler, Thornton, Datsyuk/Zetterberg, Hanzal, Koivu, O'Reilly, the list goes on and on.

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10-06-2012, 02:27 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Turris being the 2nd line centre on a playoff team automatically makes him a better player than all those guys.
Well with that logic what do oilers have to add to Hall to get Gonchar. I mean he was on a playoff team and Hall wasnt so it automatically makes him better...or that is terrible logic

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10-06-2012, 02:29 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by OccupySheen View Post
Gagner is what he is, a 40-50 point player with large deficiencies in his game. I think it's pretty easy to see why people would rather take a chance on Turris. Oiler fans keep telling us Gagner is going to break out but at what point do you just accept what he is?

In regards to the trade, Phoenix does not consider it, they have the potential to have a really special group of defensemen, I don't think Gagner is the type of guy you give up any of it for.
Ive been wondering the same thing with Turris

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10-06-2012, 02:32 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
Well with that logic what do oilers have to add to Hall to get Gonchar. I mean he was on a playoff team and Hall wasnt so it automatically makes him better...or that is terrible logic


Pajaarvi and Omark can't even make the Oilers. Turris plays a prominent role on the Sens. Hate to break it to you, but that in fact does automatically make him a better player.

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10-06-2012, 02:33 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post


Pajaarvi and Omark can't even make the Oilers. Turris plays a prominent role on the Sens. Hate to break it to you, but that in fact does automatically make him a better player.
I didnt mention MPS or Omark just the logic

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10-06-2012, 02:35 PM
  #86
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Paajarvi got more points in his first season then Turris has ever got in his career.

He also does very well in zone / start and finish.

Not going to argue who's better but just thought I'd point it out

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10-06-2012, 02:40 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
With many more games played, with better linemates. cool story bro
Buddy...i'm talking career. The guy is averaging 24pts a season. This guy should have been out of the league. It's comical that you think he's a late bloomer, with a whopping 24pt/season average. This guy is a bust. He got traded for a D prospect that may never be more than a 6th D, and a 2nd rounder. I think Phoenix got the better end of that deal.

Are you trying to tell me that the 3rd overall selection did not get the chance to prove himself in Phoenix. He never had the chance to play top 6 roles? Put the pipe down!!!!

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10-06-2012, 02:40 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Jamin View Post
I didnt mention MPS or Omark just the logic
how I explained it in the post you just quoted is logical

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10-06-2012, 02:42 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Yes they do.

Sens, Leafs, Habs, Bruins, Sabres, Flyers, Devils, Islanders, Rangers, Jets, Hurricanes, Panthers. Not the Pens they used Staal, but effectively not a 3rd liner. That's just the East. Should I go on?

I'm not talking just 2nd line centres, I'm talking 1st or 2nd line centres used against other top lines.



Seriously though, you're arguing this? Kesler, Thornton, Datsyuk/Zetterberg, Hanzal, Koivu, O'Reilly, the list goes on and on.
All these guys triple Turris' pt total in an off year. He's not a 2nd line C...at least not an effective one. Case closed.

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10-06-2012, 02:45 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
Buddy...i'm talking career. The guy is averaging 24pts a season. This guy should have been out of the league. It's comical that you think he's a late bloomer, with a whopping 24pt/season average. This guy is a bust. He got traded for a D prospect that may never be more than a 6th D, and a 2nd rounder. I think Phoenix got the better end of that deal.

Are you trying to tell me that the 3rd overall selection did not get the chance to prove himself in Phoenix. He never had the chance to play top 6 roles? Put the pipe down!!!!
I'm talking career as well. Over careers, Gagner has had more points per season largely because he has had more games played and better linemates.

But like I said, Turris is also a late bloomer. Really, you're just dismissing it? Turris came out of the BCHL and was until recently super skinny.


Turris had much less chance to prove himself than Gagner, and mismanaged also means he should have stayed in college for the 2008-09 season, not played in Phoenix.


I can't take you seriously anymore, you honestly think most teams have a shutdown 3rd line that plays against #1 lines. You need to pay attention to things outside Edmonton.

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10-06-2012, 02:47 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Oilin Toronto View Post
All these guys triple Turris' pt total in an off year. He's not a 2nd line C...at least not an effective one. Case closed.
LOL. He was Ottawa's 2nd line centre, and he played against top lines.

All those teams do NOT have 3rd liners play against top lines. You're hilarious

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10-06-2012, 02:48 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
You're wrong. Most teams play their 1st or 2nd lines against other top lines, and it's certainly easier to score against 3rd/4th lines than top 2 lines in general.

''Checkers'' are Datysuk, Kesler, Bergeron, Turris, Thornton, Richards, etc. Not 3rd line players.
Kyle Turris has absolutely nothing in common with with any of those players and you are completely delusional.

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10-06-2012, 02:51 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
My post proved that were similar as it is, and that considering other factors, a case could be made for Turris being better. Did you read it? Doesn't seem like you did.

Gagner's worst season was 0.539 ppg, which Turris beat easily last year.
Whoosh... You hear that? That was the point. If you look back quickly, you may catch a glimpse.

Turris has never matched Gagner worst offensive year. That is a fact.

If you want to look at Turris best ppg year, then I could pull up Ganger's which is better still.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Well, no. If you think Penner was a scrub then maybe. Turris played with much worse players, and most importantly, for a longer period of time.

A few shifts here and there for Gagner on the 4th line is no big deal. Gagner had much more PP time.
Actually Gagner did start on the fourth line for more then a few shifts. And more then a few games. Guess what? He played his way off of it.

So it was not a few shifts here or there.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=686216

He has more pp time because he is better offensively. Coaches coach to win.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Senators, Bruins, Leafs, Sabres and Canadiens in the NE do. Should I go on? You're 100% wrong, there are maybe 5 teams, and they all suck



er, excuse me, what ''facts'' do you have other than Gagner has clearly not progressed since stepping into the league as an 18 year old. You have nothing other than his 5 40 point seasons. Turris has 1 good season, but many other factors that make him a better player.
Who? Gomez? Plekanec? Graboski? Connelly? Bozak? There is one team in that division that has a legitimate 2nd line centre you can pencil down 40-50 points EVERY SEASON. The other guys not so much.

What factors? Intangibles? He scores less points, and is worse at faceoffs. He is far from a Selke centre, and yet isn't very good offensively.

So what? The Senators traded for a future Craig Adams. Okay every one needs a good third line centre. Still I rather have a proven 2nd line centre.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
One is trending up, the other is remaining stagnate.
So Gagner has improved his fo%, improved defensively and is stagnating. Turris set the world on fire with a earth shattering 29 points.

Turris had nowhere to trend but up. I give you he is adequate defensively, but you are really reaching on this one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Turris easily had the ppg once he got out of Phoenix and is only trending upwards.

He finished the season strong. His ppg would have easily been higher had he played the whole season and not missed training camp.
Turris had 29 points in 49 games. That's not a point per game.

Turris had 13 points in his first 16 games. And 16 points in his next 33 games. Your right. Really finished off strong.


Last edited by Pucklington: 10-06-2012 at 03:06 PM. Reason: clarrification
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Old
10-06-2012, 02:52 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
Kyle Turris has absolutely nothing in common with with any of those players and you are completely delusional.
well, you're delusional, because even if he was the worst hockey player in the world, he was still used as the shutdown centre for Ottawa, just like those players were for their teams.

You didn't watch him in Ottawa.

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10-06-2012, 03:22 PM
  #95
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This is one of the most inaccurate posts i have ever seen on HF.

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Originally Posted by internetdotcom View Post
As for your first question, Turris > Gagner because if you take away the 8 point fluke game, where at the end they were just putting him with their stars and trying to get him as many points as possible, and the 3 or 4 points from the following game, he's at best a 30-40 point forward, who is soft, whose defensive game is sorely lacking, and who stinks in the faceoff circle
If you take away an outlier like an 8 point night to be fair shouldn't you also take away the outlier of 2 points in 13 games to start the season? Coming off injury and playing on the 3rd with Belanger and Paajarvi, Gagner only scored 2 points in that stretch. So as good as his 8 point game was his 13 game stretch was nearly just as atypical for him. Taking away those two outliers (which is ridiculous BTW he scored 8 points fair and square, get over it) Gagner scored 37 points in 61 games, still better than Turris. Hell even if you exclude his 8 point game from his season as you are suggesting, which is entirely unfair, his ppg is actually the same as Turris' at 0.52.

And it seems to me that you like to bring forward the idea that Gagner is benifiting from playing with our young stars to some ridiculous extent. Gagner played everywhere last year, his most common linemate was Hemsky, and he only really played extensively with Hall and Eberle when Hopkins was out. Gagner was no more benifited playing in Edmonton with our young stars than Turris was in Ottawa playing with stars like Karlsson, Spezza, Michalek, and Alfredsson. In fact Edmonton was a much worse team so i'd argue he was actually disadvantaged.

For a guy who's a "30-40 point" forward it's pretty odd that before his 22nd birthday he's played in a huge sample size of 366 games and averaged 0.60ppg on the worst team in the league. 0.60 ppg is 49 points per 82 games a pretty far cry from "30-40 points". He's averaged this over 5 seasons, isn't that long enough of a sample size that we don't need to fabricate what his scoring range is? Sam Gagner for the record has never had under 40 points, including in the 2 years he only played 68 games. In fact at 19 he had his worst season in terms of ppg and that was still at a rate of 44 points per 82 games, which is actually still better than the 43 point pace Turris scored at last year.

I find it hilarious that you claim his defense is bad yet Turris is some kind of burgeoning two way star. They literally played almost the exact same role last season in terms of both zone starts and quality of competition. They had almost the exact same CorsiRel with Gagner being the more prolific scorer. Gagner had a team leading +5 while Turris had a very solid +10 but that was well short of the team leading +26. Gagner had a better FO% than Turris last year by around 1%, so this idea that Gagner is terribad in the dot while Turris is solid is utterly ridiculous. So at the end of the day the only thing Turris has over Gagner in their entire career's is being the forward selected immediatly ahead of him in the draft, and posting a better +/- one season, and even then that's probably a wash considering team circumstances.

Quote:
You add to that that Turris didn't have a training camp last year
You know that Gagner got hurt in TC and didn't get a full camp, right? I'd argue missing camp due to injury is worse than missing it while being healthy. Coming back from a high ankle sprain is very tough.


Quote:
If Gagner was a good enough 2C, Oilers fans wouldn't be saying repeatedly on here that their biggest need (or at least that a hole that they have) is 2C. So they aren't as sold on Gagner as they would have you beleive.
Most Oiler fans aren't worried that Gagner isn't good enough they are worried he's too similar to Hopkins. Edmonton fans have an obsession with the idea of a Gretzky-Messier combo. I don't think most Edmonton fans would like the idea of Turris playing in that slot instead as he's got the same deficinces, same goes for other small offensive centers. Some Edmonton fans want a BIG two way center instead, but that's only a vocal segment. Many many Oiler fans still believe that Gagner is going to be a very solid player for a long time and like him as the #2 longterm.

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10-06-2012, 03:37 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
well, you're delusional, because even if he was the worst hockey player in the world, he was still used as the shutdown centre for Ottawa, just like those players were for their teams.

You didn't watch him in Ottawa.
YOUR mom goes to college!

I watched Turris at the Super Series, half a dozen games at Wisco, the World Juniors, one game for the San Antonio Rampage, 90% of the games he played in the NHL prior to being traded to Ottawa, one regular season game for Ottawa and one or two post season games. In other words, whole lot more than you have.

But go ahead and cling to your worthless statistical analysis.

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10-06-2012, 03:46 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Whoosh... You hear that? That was the point. If you look back quickly, you may catch a glimpse.

Turris has never matched Gagner worst offensive year. That is a fact.

If you want to look at Turris best ppg year, then I could pull up Ganger's which is better still.
The only fact is that Turris was much better this year offensively than in gagner's worst year

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Actually Gagner did start on the fourth line for more then a few shifts. And more then a few games. Guess what? He played his way off of it.

So it was not a few shifts here or there.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=686216

He has more pp time because he is better offensively. Coaches coach to win.
Turris played much more than a few games. MUCH more.

Gagner had more PP time ONLY because he played in Edmonton and Turris in PHX.

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Who? Gomez? Plekanec? Graboski? Connelly? Bozak? There is one team in that division that has a legitimate centre you can pencil down 40-50 points EVERY SEASON. The other guys not so much.
Plekanec for the Habs and Grabovski for the Leafs were the shutdown centres, not 3rd liners.

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
What factors? Intangibles? He scores less points, and is worse at faceoffs. He is far from a Selke centre, and yet isn't very good offensively.

So what? The Senators traded for a future Craig Adams. Okay every one needs a good third line centre. Still I rather have a proven 2nd line centre.
Pretty much good defensive play. I would be so scared to have Gagner play Turris' minutes. There's reasons why the Sens were a playoff team and the Oilers not, Turris over Gagner is one of them.

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
So Gagner has improved his fo%, improved defensively and is stagnating. Turris set the world on fire with a earth shattering 29 points.

Turris had nowhere to trend but up. I give you he is adequate defensively, but you are really reaching on this one.
Trending up and not stopping just yet for Turris. While the other has stopped.

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Originally Posted by Pucklington View Post
Turris had 29 points in 49 games. That's not a point per game.

Turris had 13 points in his first 16 games. And 16 points in his next 33 games. Your right. Really finished off strong.
His ppg average, you know what I mean, like you knew earlier in your response. Quit playing dumb

His ppg translates to 49 points in 82 games, quite good.

I was going off memory, looking back he had 9 points in his last 7 games, that's where it came from.

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10-06-2012, 03:50 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by rt View Post
YOUR mom goes to college!

I watched Turris at the Super Series, half a dozen games at Wisco, the World Juniors, one game for the San Antonio Rampage, 90% of the games he played in the NHL prior to being traded to Ottawa, one regular season game for Ottawa and one or two post season games. In other words, whole lot more than you have.

But go ahead and cling to your worthless statistical analysis.
I watched him plenty thanks. He played against top players, not a single time did I wish he wasn't out there when I saw him lining up against Stamkos.

He's good defensively, when you watch him and numbers prove it. Whatever you think you saw when he was playing juniors is quite irrelevant.

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10-06-2012, 03:51 PM
  #99
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[QUOTE=MandyAlwaysKnows;54807173]Let's look at 2011-12. Not the previous seasons because Turris was misused and is a late bloomer.

Turris had 29 points in 49 games for the Sens. Good for a 0.592 points per game.

Gagner had 47 points in 75 games. Good for 0.627 points per game.

Negligible difference offensively. Turris put up these numbers while being the Senators most important defensive forward and playing shutdown against the likes of Tavares, Stamkos, Giroux and Malkin. If he only had offense to focus on, he could have easily scored more than Gagner. Turris has no 11 points in 2 games to fall back on either, which quite inflated Gagner's numbers above where they should be.


Take out the fluke 11 points in 2 games and Gagner goes down to 36 points in 73 games, less than 0.50 ppg.[QUOTE=MandyAlwaysKnows;54807173]

You are forgetting the 6 games and 0 points he played for Phoenix, because that does count for his ppg stat.
Last time I checked you can not take points off of someones stats to make your arguement better, because if you would like to do it that way we can discount his 4 point game against the NYI (much easier team than chicago) and one of his 2 point games so that would be 53 games played and a grand total of whooping 23 points. That is just a flat out stupid way to debate who is the better point producer. Which is Gagner.

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10-06-2012, 03:55 PM
  #100
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Oilers getting Schultz for basically free kinda negates them having to make a move like this.

They need a young no.2C who can play with Yakupov/Hall or Hemsky anyway and Horcoff isn't the answer there.

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