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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Are Fans of Big Market Teams Annoyed At the Money-Losing Teams?

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Old
10-08-2012, 06:38 PM
  #251
Ashley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
So you agree with the moving of QC and WPG and would have agreed to move EDM and CAL?
I can name several teams that wouldn't exist now if there was no cap, which is the case when those teams were relocating.

Your comparing a few years of economic downturn vs present franchises that never even had more than a year or two of profit - because they have no fans.

I'd rather see the NHL share revenue in cities where people actually want to go to games than Phoenix or Columbus where people can't care less about the sport.

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10-08-2012, 06:39 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Zzzzzzzzz. You've a habit of posting attendance figures that mean nothing sans the attached revenue per each seat sold. Everything you've ever said here regarding attendance is essentially wasted space given that it is always posted sans any revenue context.
You find that data and post it buddy.

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10-08-2012, 06:39 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Zzzzzzzzz. You've a habit of posting attendance figures that mean nothing sans the attached revenue per each seat sold. Everything you've ever said here regarding attendance is essentially wasted space given that it is always posted sans any revenue context.
If you have access to actual ticket revenue data over history, I'd love to see it. Since no one does, we're kind of stuck with what we have.

Besides that, the discussion is over what is and isn't "a hockey market". Attendance is at least a starting point for drawing trends and support from, and it's a readily-available one as well.

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10-08-2012, 06:40 PM
  #254
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I'm pissed there is a lockout, and that the strategy to fix struggling markets is to cut labor costs again.

But who is driving that discussion? Probably a mix of desperate "poor market" teams and "rich" teams who are against revenue sharing (for whatever reason). Whoever those teams are, they are who I am pissed at.

I am upset that there isn't a revenue sharing / luxury tax system being implemented. Seems like a no-brainer. But there are probably just enough "nay" votes (stingy "rich" teams and "poor" teams worried about competitive balance) to keep it from being implemented immediately.

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10-08-2012, 06:41 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
I can name several teams that wouldn't exist now if there was no cap, which is the case when those teams were relocating.

Your comparing a few years of economic downturn vs present franchises that never even had more than a year or two of profit - because they have no fans.

I'd rather see the NHL share revenue in cities where people actually want to go to games than Phoenix or Columbus where people can't care less about the sport.
Name them for me, please. Remember, no cap would also mean no floor.

Columbus has fans. So don't go there. Columbus also turned a few years of profit. They have also had a terrible product, which apparently isn't an excuse, unless it's applied to Pittsburgh or Chicago.

What cities are these that have an arena, a fan base, an owner, and what teams would you move?


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10-08-2012, 06:42 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
If you have access to actual ticket revenue data over history, I'd love to see it. Since no one does, we're kind of stuck with what we have.

Besides that, the discussion is over what is and isn't "a hockey market". Attendance is at least a starting point for drawing trends and support from, and it's a readily-available one as well.
No, your attendance data represents nothing more than meaningless numbers, especially given that you often apply it to NHL franchises that draw revenues similar to CHL teams in Vancouver and Calgary.

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10-08-2012, 06:43 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
I can name several teams that wouldn't exist now if there was no cap, which is the case when those teams were relocating.

Your comparing a few years of economic downturn vs present franchises that never even had more than a year or two of profit - because they have no fans.

I'd rather see the NHL share revenue in cities where people actually want to go to games than Phoenix or Columbus where people can't care less about the sport.
Every team currently in the NHL existed when there was no cap. Some of them were even *gasp* profitable.

Columbus, pre-lockout (capacity 18,136):
2000-01 - 17,457 (96.3%)
2001-02 - 18,136 (100%)
2002-03 - 17,744 (97.8%)
2003-04 - 17,369 (95.8%)

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10-08-2012, 06:43 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Name them for me, please. Remember, no cap would also mean no floor.

Columbus has fans. So don't go there. Columbus also turned a few years of product. They have also had a terrible product, which apparently isn't an excuse, unless it's applied to Pittsburgh or Chicago.

What cities are these that have an arena, a fan base, an owner, and what teams would you move?

Funny how you just ignored Phoenix though. Guess you're fine with relocating that team?

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10-08-2012, 06:44 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Every team currently in the NHL existed when there was no cap. Some of them were even *gasp* profitable.

Columbus, pre-lockout (capacity 18,136):
2000-01 - 17,457 (96.3%)
2001-02 - 18,136 (100%)
2002-03 - 17,744 (97.8%)
2003-04 - 17,369 (95.8%)
Give away enough tickets, lower the prices and a little bit of fudging numbers don't mean they end up with a profit. San Jose has a decent fanbase and they can barely break even. Not a chance you can convince me Columbus made money.

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10-08-2012, 06:45 PM
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
No, your attendance data represents nothing more than meaningless numbers, especially given that you often apply it to NHL franchises that draw revenues similar to CHL teams in Vancouver and Calgary.
Correct me if I'm wrong here.

1) Hockey fans go to hockey games

2) "Attendance" is a number that reflects "people who go to home games"

3) A greater number of people attending hockey games is a good indicator that there is local support for attending hockey games

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10-08-2012, 06:45 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
You find that data and post it buddy.
Why should I? I'm not the one continually claiming that attendance is an arbiter of good markets? Sold out building attendance at ticket prices that don't even remotely cover cost is not indicative of a strong market, nor even a potentially strong market. It is however indicative of money lost.

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10-08-2012, 06:45 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
Funny how you just ignored Phoenix though. Guess you're fine with relocating that team?
Easy non-sequitur. No I'm not okay with it as long as they're bought by Jamison. If an owner is willing to lose money, so be it. Now actually answer the question.

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10-08-2012, 06:46 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
Why should I? I'm not the one continually claiming that attendance is an arbiter of good markets? Sold out buildings annually at ticket prices that don't even remotely cover cost are indicative of jack.
At least one side is providing all the numbers. And without this data, I can claim equally that they are selling out enough to cover costs. Or they were

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10-08-2012, 06:46 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Easy non-sequitur. No I'm not okay with it as long as they're bought by Jamison. If an owner is willing to lose money, so be it. Now actually answer the question.
Were you okay with WPG and QC relocating, as well as MIN and HTF back in the day?

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10-08-2012, 06:47 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
Give away enough tickets, lower the prices and a little bit of fudging numbers don't mean they end up with a profit.
Ticket giveaways did not exist.

I have the entire ticket price archive saved on my computer at home.

There was no number fudging that took place. Columbus changed partway through the 2005-06 season and all through the 2006-07 season because Doug MacLean (team president and GM at the time) was trying to convince higher-ups that his reign of idiocy wasn't causing a detrimental effect in attendance or local support. They didn't buy it, and he was canned. Since 2007, when Scott Howson took over as GM, reported attendance is actual attendance in Columbus.

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10-08-2012, 06:47 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Easy non-sequitur. No I'm not okay with it as long as they're bought by Jamison. If an owner is willing to lose money, so be it. Now actually answer the question.
Non-sequitur? Do you even know what that means or you just like mentioning it when you have no clue? Phoenix was mentioned in the first post you quoted from me.

I'd rather see the NHL share revenue in cities where people actually want to go to games than Phoenix or Columbus where people can't care less about the sport.

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10-08-2012, 06:48 PM
  #267
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Attendance matters, but only if it excludes promotional giveaways that aritficially inflate those numbers, like we see in some southern markets, ie Phoenix. I have no knowledge of this when it comes to Columbus, but does anyone know if they have had to market the team in this manner as well to try and augment their small attendance numbers?

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10-08-2012, 06:48 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
Were you okay with WPG and QC relocating, as well as MIN and HTF back in the day?
MIN and HTF, yes. They were bought, stayed there for a while, and then moved. That's the owner's prerogative. If Jamison decides to move PHX, so be it. His team, his choice. Same with QC and WPG, who were bought and then moved.

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10-08-2012, 06:50 PM
  #269
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Originally Posted by Ashley View Post
Non-sequitur? Do you even know what that means or you just like mentioning it when you have no clue? Phoenix was mentioned in the first post you quoted from me.

I'd rather see the NHL share revenue in cities where people actually want to go to games than Phoenix or Columbus where people can't care less about the sport.
Yeah, you completely ignored what I said, but you're right, strawman would be better.

I'm still waiting for you to answer the question.

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10-08-2012, 06:50 PM
  #270
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
MIN and HTF, yes. They were bought, stayed there for a while, and then moved. That's the owner's prerogative. If Jamison decides to move PHX, so be it. His team, his choice. Same with QC and WPG, who were bought and then moved.
Cool, and I'm fine with relocating Phoenix, Columbus or whatever other team that draws flies and is nothing more than a money pit.

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10-08-2012, 06:52 PM
  #271
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Cool, and I'm fine with relocating Phoenix, Columbus or whatever other team that draws flies and is nothing more than a money pit.
Without trying to find a local owner? Or would you have been fine relocating EDM?

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10-08-2012, 06:52 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
At least one side is providing all the numbers. And without this data, I can claim equally that they are selling out enough to cover costs. Or they were
That IS THE POINT. The numbers he usually posts are sans their revenue context and as such mean nothing.

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10-08-2012, 06:52 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
Attendance matters, but only if it excludes promotional giveaways that aritficially inflate those numbers, like we see in some southern markets, ie Phoenix. I have no knowledge of this when it comes to Columbus, but does anyone know if they have had to market the team in this manner as well to try and augment their small attendance numbers?
Two long-standing promotions in Columbus:

1) Family Night. A designated number of games are available for a full package, which includes a ticket, small soft drink, small popcorn, and a hot dog. These are nosebleed seats, and originally started at $25 each (back in 2000). I don't remember what they're up to now.

2) Green Seats. These are promoted by primary sponsor Huntington Bank. There are 250 $10 seats available for every game; they're only on sale at the arena, starting two hours before the puck drops. These are ultra-nosebleed seats; they're the top couple of rows in sections 220-228 (behind the net the CBJ defend twice, high enough to induce altitude sickness)

That's about it. There was a partial-season promotion about five years ago that involved two free tickets with the purchase of....I think it was four 24-packs of Pepsi products. That's the closest to an actual giveaway that there's ever been.

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10-08-2012, 06:53 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Gump Hasek View Post
That IS THE POINT. The numbers he usually posts are sans their revenue context and as such mean nothing.
So you do no research and just sit back and say these numbers don't mean anything? Man I wish arguments went like that. "I'm right, your numbers mean nothing, you're wrong, I win."

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10-08-2012, 06:55 PM
  #275
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This is a hilarious question when it's a fact that the idiots running the big market teams such as Jeremy Jacobs and Ed snider are the ones steering the owners ship and prolonging this lockout. The question should be, are smal market team fans annoyed that the big market teams are creating this lockout.

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