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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, NHL revenues, relocation and expansion.

Are Fans of Big Market Teams Annoyed At the Money-Losing Teams?

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Old
10-07-2012, 04:49 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
Winnipeg is doing quite well, actually.

Nashville is breaking even, last I heard.

If Minnesota is having financial problems, they've yet to hit the news.

Columbus has just had their finances restructured, and should be fine going forward.

What are you talking about again?
Winnipeg isn't a 90's expansion team. They relocated from Atlanta-a 90's expansion disaster.

Columbus is still going to lose millions next season. There are no signs they are "fine" at all.

Phoenix needs to go and Florida is bleeding money. Maybe 10-12 teams are making money.

That's what I'm talking about.

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10-07-2012, 05:01 PM
  #127
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If there was a measure for relative energy/fan engagement/noise compared to % attendance, Toronto would rank dead last. Sure, sell out every game but when you've got so many people disinterested in the actual game instead of just 'being seen at the game', can you really compare it to the markets who might struggle attendance wise or financially, but are full of energy, who are promoting the game locally to kids, who are just glad to be part of NHL hockey?

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Originally Posted by EpicGingy View Post
You can't use Roughriders statistics for this, totally differet situation. Not only are their tickets cheaper, there's like what, 8-10 home games a season? Also considering that a lot of fans come from a few hours out in the summer, you can't guarantee them doing that for 41 home games in the middle of a prarie winter, it just wouldn't happen, Saskatoon can't support an NHL team right now.

Nashville is a better market than Saskatoon right now, IMO. I guess the NHL should've ditched Nashville, Pittsburgh, Washington, Boston and Chicago during their lean years, eh?

I hate how some of my country men think anywhere in Canada>USA. Nashville's going to continue to grow, and so will some of the other Southern markets.

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10-07-2012, 05:15 PM
  #128
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Columbus has a pass, though. They may not be a market as great as the ones in the north, but they are the worst on-ice disaster to ever happen in the history of mankind and I am surprised they don't average at less than 6000 fans a game by now.

If Columbus ever relocates, I hope Ohio is given another chance in the future and that they don't re-hire the current management they have.

Also I would rather see Quebec get a team first before Saskatoon. Saskatoon could possibly work (just barely enough to break even and sell out), but since Quebec is bigger and had better attendance than Winnipeg in the '90s I think it should be first.


Last edited by DJ Omnimaga: 10-07-2012 at 05:22 PM.
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Old
10-07-2012, 05:25 PM
  #129
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I'm a fan of NYR, and I have little doubt dolan doesn't mind the lockout since it's an opportunity for him to grab more $.

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Old
10-07-2012, 05:31 PM
  #130
Captain Smurf
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I'm annoyed, yes. I understand the need to grow the game, I just think the strategy to grow it was pretty stupid. There are seven teams from non-traditional hockey markets in the West (Columbus, SJ, Phoenix, Anaheim, LA, Dallas and Nashville). The East has fewer (Pretty much the entire Southeast division minus Washington and Winnipeg, although Atlanta was definitely non traditional). They made up for that with small markets (Buff, Ottawa) and the over-tapped or mismanaged NY/NJ area. We've established that you need a relatively consistent, if intermittent success to grow the game, but the number of infant hockey markets make it difficult to grow the game in all regions simultaneously. The odds that all those teams can be competitive for the cup are slim without accounting for the more traditional markets that have better established hierarchy's. Through the cap, Bettman has helped flatten the playing field, but there are calls to make it lower and to increase revenue sharing.

The NHL is weird, in that almost all of the big markets (TO, NYR, MTL, VAN and BOS) have higher income tax rates than the rest of the league.

http://business.financialpost.com/20...ly-tax-havens/

Those markets need to overpay UFA's to get them to sign. So you have fans that not only pay higher ticket prices essentially being asked to support teams they don't cheer for and eliminating the primary competitive edge their own teams hold.

Everyone wants to see the game grow, but ignore the effect that certain established teams can have in that. Marquee match-ups generate more interest on a wider scale than regional match-ups. To casual viewers, teams like the Habs, Leafs, Rangers and Detroit just generate more interest than Phoenix, Nashville, SJ and Carolina, irrespective of how talented the teams are at that point.

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Old
10-07-2012, 05:35 PM
  #131
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Yes. Pull the plug on these teams already. Move them to the obvious locations and move on.

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Old
10-07-2012, 05:38 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
That's what pisses off me and every other "non-traditional" fan. All we're asking is for people to at least be honest. I'm sick and tired of being told that I need to apologize for existing.
Would you like a hanky with your blanky?

Look, I have my opinions on southern markets and would like to see a few more Canadian teams in the league, but I really wish people would stop bringing up Saskatoon as a relocation option: IT'S NOT, and won't be for another 50, if ever.

Please be realistic and just stop bringing it up, please.

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Old
10-07-2012, 05:41 PM
  #133
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If we take a look at the Senators "profits" within the context of hrr they are defined in, we may find that they were quite volatile over the years, ranging from a $20 mil profit when going to the finals, to a $4mil loss when heatley demands a trade and gets a signing bonus from ottawa even though he doesnt play a game here that year.

Looking at one year out of context and making a broad determination on the pattern from that would seem a rather unworthwhile extrapolation. Over the years teams should rise and fall in profits. That would seem to me a natural course of events. At any one time in the league, i would expect it to be normal that a significant percentage of teams are losing money in that one year, and a different group of teams in the next. Hopefully in the long run, all can find a way to make money and raise their franchise values so that they can claim the 100% of the capital gains to match their 100% capital risk.

But operational profits should be warranted for good management, not capital risk.

It was suggested that Ottawa's $2.3 mil "profit" is not a worthy return for the size of the investment; that it doesnt reconcile. Yet the same article suggests that Ottawas franchise value has more than doubled. How does that reconcile?

It reconciles if we assume hrr dropped but non hrr skyrocketed. And if such is the case, its hard to see where the basis for sympathy comes from.

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Old
10-07-2012, 06:27 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Phoenix needs to go and Florida is bleeding money. Maybe 10-12 teams are making money.

That's what I'm talking about.
You're talking about "Bettman's expansion teams", of which Phoenix and Florida are not. Florida was awarded its franchise three months before Bettman set foot in the commissioner's office, and Phoenix was relocated by a vote of the BOG, and I highly doubt that the commish gets an I-don't-like-that-one-bit veto to override the BOG.

But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good Bettman hate-in?

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Old
10-07-2012, 07:00 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
This isn't true at all.
you really think population is not the driving force behind NYR's wealth? it's what makes your fanbase appear to be more supportive. not saying ny is a bad market, just saying your fanbase's support needs to be taken into context.

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10-07-2012, 07:06 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Sour Shoes View Post
you really think population is not the driving force behind NYR's wealth? it's what makes your fanbase appear to be more supportive. not saying ny is a bad market, just saying your fanbase's support needs to be taken into context.

NYC would need to have about 10+ teams to have the same market share per team as pittsburgh and other smaller markets. How well do you think NYC would do with that.



If anyone actually believes population doesn't have anything to do with it they are delusional.

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Old
10-07-2012, 08:23 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
...and Phoenix was relocated by a vote of the BOG....
.... say what Buck Aki? You've lost me.

Do you mean Jets01 who were sold to Burke & Gluckstern who's initial destination was to be Minneapolis / St.Paul but then wound up in Phoenix when the Twin Cities wouldnt cave to their demands?

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Old
10-07-2012, 08:28 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Florida has averaged 85% attendance or higher in every single year since they've been in the league, and has only fallen below 90% twice. Now consider that the team missed the playoffs for 12 straight years.

I'll also point out that any measure that you use ("money-losing", "poor attendance") also condemns every Canadian city in the last 20 years with the exception of Toronto and Montreal. Would the NHL look better if teams losing money and having poor attendance were all shipped south en masse, leaving only 2 Canadian cities?

EDIT- Did you SERIOUSLY say Saskatoon?
What percentage of people in a 30-square-mile radius of the arena can name the captain of the team?

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Old
10-07-2012, 08:30 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
You're talking about "Bettman's expansion teams", of which Phoenix and Florida are not. Florida was awarded its franchise three months before Bettman set foot in the commissioner's office, and Phoenix was relocated by a vote of the BOG, and I highly doubt that the commish gets an I-don't-like-that-one-bit veto to override the BOG.

But hey, why let facts get in the way of a good Bettman hate-in?
It's also true that any good CEO knows how to work his board.

In a healthy realtionship between a CEO and his board, there can be a lot of question about who is running the show.

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10-07-2012, 08:49 PM
  #140
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I'm totally pissed at the small market teams right now. They are holding us all hostage because they can't generate enough revenue to pay their bills.

Now you can talk all you want about sellouts and consecutive years of 90% capacity but when you're giving away tickets with the purchase of an oil change, or have a "Family Pack" consisting of tickets, parking, 4 hotdogs and 4 pop for under $50- YOU ARE A JOKE!

You are not a traditional market. Yet it is these same damn teams that are causing us to miss another season of hockey because they can't survive under the current economic structure.

Well get out. Move somewhere that can afford to have a team.

Holding us hostage because they lose less money with an empty arena than if there is hockey is just disgusting in my books.

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Old
10-07-2012, 09:01 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Short answer, yes. But saddened is probably a better word than annoyed in my case. I miss the old NHL a lot.

But it's not because of this lockout. This just brings it to the forefront for me.

For me there is the NHL before Quebec and Winnipeg were moved (and to a degree before Gretzky was traded but I was pretty young then) and the NHL now. I have never really felt the same about hockey since then. I've kept watching and following, but it's never really been the same. Also coincides with Roy being traded from the Habs, so being a Habs fan who is old enough to have lived through that might have a lot to do with it too.

I don't like NHL hockey with empty arenas. I find watching games against teams where the arenas are empty (or filled with Habs fans which happens a lot in the East) is extremely boring compared to watching a game against Toronto, Boston or back in the day, Quebec. And watching Tampa Bay win the cup and have half as many people in the streets celebrating as there were in the losing city Calgary never sat well with me either. Just like I don't truly "get" basketball, baseball and football, I find people in those cities don't and never will really "get" what hockey truly is really about.

Call me bitter, call me what you want, I hate the expansion and I hate Gary Bettman. For me hockey was never about revenue and growth. It was just a part of life. What team you are a fan of in the NHL is part of your identity up here.
fault the owners and the BOG for the NHL expansion.....

the plan to expand to the lower US was already in place around 1990, two years before bettman got there......

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Old
10-07-2012, 09:08 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by sawchuk1971 View Post
blame the owners and the BOG for the US expansion.....

the plan to expand to the lower US was in place around 1990, two years before bettman got there......
Whoever is to blame, I hate it.

Right now Bettman is, at the very least, the representative of this idea of "growth and expanding the game" which is clearly not working.

Just how much he is immediately responsible for it or not doesn't really matter to me. He is the man representing the expansion ideology right now and refusing to face the facts, and once again, we're stuck in a **** show of rich people butting heads instead of watching the sport we love.

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10-07-2012, 09:11 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
I am mad at the rich owners too. If they agreed to more revenue sharing we would be playing hockey right now.
you also gotta blame the dumb players...

they were the ones who kicked paul kelly out because they felt he was too "chummy" towards ownership..

NHL would be playing now if kelly had not been replaced....

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10-07-2012, 09:17 PM
  #144
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Florida went on that binge to hit the cap floor. The Jackets payed way more than they usually do, a gamble which did not pay off.
I know they went on that binge to hit the cap floor but this raises a matter of principle. Why is it set up that way so that a poor team has that issue? I know they say hindsight and stuff they didn't have during the lockout but could none of these lawyers really make a guess at what would happen if revenues went up? They knew the floor would go up and could've figured out some teams would've had problems.

And Columbus did gamble but why is a team like that able to gamble and spend more in the first place when we always hear about their financial problems?

If you wanna control the market to prevent some from outspending others by a large amount then fine but if you're trying to control the bottom too then it doesn't make sense to me.

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Old
10-07-2012, 09:22 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Short answer, yes. But saddened is probably a better word than annoyed in my case. I miss the old NHL a lot.

But it's not because of this lockout. This just brings it to the forefront for me.

For me there is the NHL before Quebec and Winnipeg were moved (and to a degree before Gretzky was traded but I was pretty young then) and the NHL now. I have never really felt the same about hockey since then. I've kept watching and following, but it's never really been the same. Also coincides with Roy being traded from the Habs, so being a Habs fan who is old enough to have lived through that might have a lot to do with it too.

I don't like NHL hockey with empty arenas. I find watching games against teams where the arenas are empty (or filled with Habs fans which happens a lot in the East) is extremely boring compared to watching a game against Toronto, Boston or back in the day, Quebec. And watching Tampa Bay win the cup and have half as many people in the streets celebrating as there were in the losing city Calgary never sat well with me either. Just like I don't truly "get" basketball, baseball and football, I find people in those cities don't and never will really "get" what hockey truly is really about.

Call me bitter, call me what you want, I hate the expansion and I hate Gary Bettman. For me hockey was never about revenue and growth. It was just a part of life. What team you are a fan of in the NHL is part of your identity up here.
That's an NHL before free agency was much of a thing, and money wasn't everything. Blame the players for wanting more freedom and say in where they play more than anyone else for that.

The NHL has always been a business, but players finally "getting it" is what it sounds like you're mad at. Players go to the highest bidder, whether it's their childhood team or not. Their identity is that extra dollar.

Players love more teams, as it drives up their price. Owners took the free expansion money. Money, money, money.

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10-07-2012, 09:27 PM
  #146
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I like how we use attendance, ticket price and revenue to say "MARKETS" have failed.

If the Rangers are #2 in revenue, the Devils are #15, and the Islanders are #30, AND THEY ALL SHARE THE EXACT SAME MARKET, there is more to revenue numbers than just "being a good hockey market."

Things like arena/lease, ownership, winning, a good CBA, etc.


A good economic model works for all 30 franchies. The model is broken.
It's not the fault of those in the bottom 12 of revenues that the model is broken. In fact, if you eliminated those 12 teams, the broken model would make teams 12-18 "poor."

The NHL shares 4.5% of local revenues through revenue sharing.
The NBA, NFL and MLB are all at 31 to 48% of local revenue sharing.

Stop making "revenue sharing" out to be some kind dastardly device that's unfair. It's in the best interest of the rich clubs to have as many people as possible care about the sport, lest it become a regional tournament. All the other sports on our continent have realized this and embraced it, 7 to 10 times as much as the NHL.

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Old
10-07-2012, 09:42 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
So the solution is simply to cut and run? Why should all those other teams be given a chance, but no one else?
(It's because they're not in Canada)
Remember, the United States doesn't deserve hockey.

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10-07-2012, 09:43 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Jigger77 View Post
Whoever is to blame, I hate it.

Right now Bettman is, at the very least, the representative of this idea of "growth and expanding the game" which is clearly not working.

Just how much he is immediately responsible for it or not doesn't really matter to me. He is the man representing the expansion ideology right now and refusing to face the facts, and once again, we're stuck in a **** show of rich people butting heads instead of watching the sport we love.
why focusing on bettman?

he is just a tool for for BOG and the owners....

i guess its easier to point the problem at bettman than pointing at the nameless and faceless the thirty-odd BOG members and the owners....who really control the league and use him as a puppet for their greedy demands....

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10-07-2012, 09:50 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by Mant View Post
(It's because they're not in Canada)
Remember, the United States doesn't deserve hockey.
Holy strawman argument Batman!

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10-07-2012, 09:51 PM
  #150
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Not shocked at all who OP is. Stop with the expansion hate mongering.

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