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Are Fans of Big Market Teams Annoyed At the Money-Losing Teams?

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Old
10-08-2012, 10:39 AM
  #176
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[QUOTE=Lobotomizer;54839947]
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Originally Posted by blues10 View Post

The fact that you "could care less" has nothing to do with how teams gain revenue. As a fan of a big market team you really have no clue at how the teams that have little income from tickets are suffering. Those "cheap tickets" are why we are in a lockout.
I think we may actually be on the same side of the debate but for the semantics of the thread title, but perhaps I am wrong.

I am well aware of the problems that these cheap tickets bring and very much have a clue. In fact, I believe teams even like the Predators do not charge enough money for tickets and could very much be in trouble in the near future. All of this despite massive government hand-outs. This franchise is generally thought of to be healthy with increased sell-outs, playoff run and re-signing Weber. I believe this team to be in trouble.

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The leader of the local ownership group said members have been forced to put $60 million of their own money into the operation over the past five years, largely to cover losses. The city has given the Predators $38.6 million in the same period.

With the financial failures of other Sun Belt professional hockey teams in Dallas, Atlanta and Phoenix, the question then becomes: Is the Predators’ business model sustainable?
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20...nclick_check=1

I love the all you can eat and drink adult seats in Nashville for $64.00. Is that a sustaiable business model?

http://predators.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=77771

The thread title is "Are Fans of Big Market Teams Annoyed At the Money-Losing Teams?"

I am not annoyed.

I am also aware that money losing team generally bring in less HRR than financially successful ones. For big market teams to pay into revenue sharing it may be cheaper than higher HRR and an increased CAP if the money losers made money. However, there are many other threads on the board to discuss that stuff.

Perhaps I am not annoyed because I enjoy the nice break from my $240 seats (2 tickets) and $8.50 beer when I vacation in Arizona at jobing.com.

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10-08-2012, 10:41 AM
  #177
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The annoyance really is the jealousy.We see fans of other teams paying 50 bucks or less for lower bowl seats and the league supporting the cities. When we are stuck in markets where seats are next to impossible to get for under 100 bucks anywhere in the arena. We are told you already have a team in the area, so tough. I can't see the fairness in that. Now if everyone was paying the same, I'd be very sympathetic to the plight of teams which didn't draw very well.

The league wants to lower player salaries so some markets can exist where fans can pay $20 to see a game. Will that change anything for big market teams? Will ticket prices come down? Nope, just makes it more unlikely a team will ever relocate to a market where people obviously hold the game to a higher standard.


Last edited by Confucius: 10-08-2012 at 10:49 AM.
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10-08-2012, 10:50 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Some teams will never be big market. And some teams will always find themselves losing money at some point. I think it's because they can't experience winter.

In Canada, and likely northern American teams, the fans are able to relate to the game. Every winter my local rink is full of families, hockey sticks and memories from sunrise to sunset each and every day. And it's just an outdoor community rink that's completely volunteer supported.

When a child is able to experience something first hand on an affordable level, they're likely to grow up to appreciate and respect the game. They'll grow up to support the game.



A child under the sunbelt region throws the pigskin all year, throws a baseball, and bounces a basketball for a very affordable price. To experience hockey, and therefore respect the game first hand, they have to go to an expensive indoor arena, if there's any around. The environment doesn't foster the game to be marketable.

When Winnipeg was without their NHL team, the fans weren't gone. The skating rinks were full. From Novice to Beer leagues, the fan base was evident. Just because the club was struggling or the local economy wasn't good, doesn't mean it wasn't a hockey market, it just means it wasn't a business market.

Sometimes sports can't be sold on T.V, they got to be sold at the grassroots. There's a reason why soccer is the number one sport in the world: every community, family, and child on this planet has the access to love the game in it's truest form - when it's played. Hockey is no different.

A community needs to have hockey's basic market before it's able to be a big hockey market in my opinion. You know you're in a hockey market is when the driver training needs to include the hazard of kids playing in the street. You know you're in a hockey market when a mom sleeps with a coach to help her son be captain of the team. Or when a father won't even let his little girl in ballet, instead she's got to be a goalie. You know you're in a hockey market when a teacher fudges grades to keep you on the local team.

It's these things that have the inherent ability to make big market teams, because it's only depending on the economic market and not on things like winning games, building an audience, or getting that T.V endoresement. If the game is good enough, it should sell itself. And hockey is a damn good game.
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Despite normally mild winters resulting from the onshore flow over the North Pacific Current, occasional arrivals of cold arctic outflows (sinking cold continental air that flows down though the Fraser Valley coastward) in winter can sometimes last a week or more, however in many winters, these outflows barely affect the city or do not occur at all.
Well sounds like Vancouver is out. Mild winter wouldn't work with this whole experiencing winter thing. St. Louis, MO actually has lower average highs and lows in winter than Vancouver.

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10-08-2012, 11:29 AM
  #179
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It pisses me off to know a large chunk of my ticket prices is used for a charity trust so some clubs at the other side of the continent don't go under.

I also understand it pisses off the rich owners or the players that are forced to pay for those clubs... Difference with them, is I wont have a sleepless night if teams are boarded up or relocated so I don't need to do forced charity anymore. I'd much rather give to cancer research than the Coyotes.

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10-08-2012, 11:32 AM
  #180
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A child under the sunbelt region throws the pigskin all year, throws a baseball, and bounces a basketball for a very affordable price. To experience hockey, and therefore respect the game first hand, they have to go to an expensive indoor arena, if there's any around. The environment doesn't foster the game to be marketable.
********. I was born in Dallas, Texas and grew up 100 miles North of Sunrise, Florida. I played ball hockey in the streets and loved watching the Panthers. I moved to Orlando, 100 miles East of Tampa for college, and started watching the Lightning. Once I really started getting into hockey I switched my allegience to my hometown, but still made an effort to support the local Florida teams.

Saying a Sunbelt kid can't appreciate the game is ****ing ridiculous. I fell in love with the game on the streets in roller skates. I grew that love watching local "failing" markets. Now I'm a diehard adult hockey fan, supporting Sunbelt teams 1000 miles away from where I live. My kids will grow up hockey fans, whether of my teams or the local NE teams who knows, but I've grown the sport. The Sunbelt expansion grew the sport.

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10-08-2012, 11:33 AM
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
Some teams will never be big market. And some teams will always find themselves losing money at some point. I think it's because they can't experience winter.

In Canada, and likely northern American teams, the fans are able to relate to the game. Every winter my local rink is full of families, hockey sticks and memories from sunrise to sunset each and every day. And it's just an outdoor community rink that's completely volunteer supported.

When a child is able to experience something first hand on an affordable level, they're likely to grow up to appreciate and respect the game. They'll grow up to support the game.



A child under the sunbelt region throws the pigskin all year, throws a baseball, and bounces a basketball for a very affordable price. To experience hockey, and therefore respect the game first hand, they have to go to an expensive indoor arena, if there's any around. The environment doesn't foster the game to be marketable.

When Winnipeg was without their NHL team, the fans weren't gone. The skating rinks were full. From Novice to Beer leagues, the fan base was evident. Just because the club was struggling or the local economy wasn't good, doesn't mean it wasn't a hockey market, it just means it wasn't a business market.

Sometimes sports can't be sold on T.V, they got to be sold at the grassroots. There's a reason why soccer is the number one sport in the world: every community, family, and child on this planet has the access to love the game in it's truest form - when it's played. Hockey is no different.

A community needs to have hockey's basic market before it's able to be a big hockey market in my opinion. You know you're in a hockey market is when the driver training needs to include the hazard of kids playing in the street. You know you're in a hockey market when a mom sleeps with a coach to help her son be captain of the team. Or when a father won't even let his little girl in ballet, instead she's got to be a goalie. You know you're in a hockey market when a teacher fudges grades to keep you on the local team.

It's these things that have the inherent ability to make big market teams, because it's only depending on the economic market and not on things like winning games, building an audience, or getting that T.V endoresement. If the game is good enough, it should sell itself. And hockey is a damn good game.
I've never been able to have a backyard hockey rink. Everyone here has to go to expensive indoor ice rinks to respect the game. We must be a small market team.

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10-08-2012, 11:35 AM
  #182
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My question is that if you're just a "fan", why the hell would you care? Unless you're actually connected to a team via business side of things, it really doesn't matter to you at all. You can "care" but the reality is it has little to do with you.

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10-08-2012, 12:52 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Duke49 View Post
My question is that if you're just a "fan", why the hell would you care? Unless you're actually connected to a team via business side of things, it really doesn't matter to you at all. You can "care" but the reality is it has little to do with you.
It does matter to the fan. Without subsidies teams would have to move to where they will be supported. More teams in resonable distance increases supply. That naturally will increase acessability to tickets. Result cheaper tickets in some markets where many fans are priced out.

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10-08-2012, 12:59 PM
  #184
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you really think population is not the driving force behind NYR's wealth? it's what makes your fanbase appear to be more supportive. not saying ny is a bad market, just saying your fanbase's support needs to be taken into context.
If you really think population is the driving force behind NYR's wealth, then you are sorely mistaken. I live about 60 miles east of the city and travel through the bussiest trains station in the world several times a year, which happens to be in the basement of MSG. If you ever get a chance to go through Penn Station right before a game you will see men is suits pouring into the Garden. New York City is the finacial Capitol of the entire WORLD. Companies pay big buck to send employees and clients to the most famous arena in North America or maybe the world. That being said the Rangers could and have in the past been terrible and companies will still line up to overspend on thier employee/client perks. The same goes for Tourists visiting from around the globe. Most Ranger fans I know will attend more Islander games than Ranger games due to the waiting list to get into the garden.

Don't forget that Dolan owns the Garden outright and the Name of the arena alone is worth more than the teams that play there. Also Dolan owns the Network the Rangers are covered on, The Newspaper that follows them, The Largest Cable provider in the North East and the Knicks.

In comparision. The Islanders play 60min east of the City, in Suburbia, in a county that has the 5th highest taxes in America. The same county that chased out EVERY major bussiness it could. The same county that leases out the arena to a management company who then rents it the Islanders. The Islanders are then covered under Dolans Media.

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10-08-2012, 01:00 PM
  #185
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It pisses me off that I have to pay $100 just to get in the building to see my team play (not including parking, food/drinks, etc.) yet in another market they are giving fans 2 tickets, 2 hot dogs, 2 drinks, popcorn, and parking for $40. And then the league wants to take the money I spent on my ticket to support the team giving up all that for $40. Not to mention the fact that the team giving their tickets away went further in the playoffs than my team did (so it's not like I'm necessarily paying for a premium product either)...

As in any business, if your business is failing and the owner can no longer operate with those losses the business either folds or moves. There are plenty of unserved markets right now that would be profitable, yet the NHL insists on staying in these poor markets.

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10-08-2012, 01:21 PM
  #186
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Well sounds like Vancouver is out. Mild winter wouldn't work with this whole experiencing winter thing. St. Louis, MO actually has lower average highs and lows in winter than Vancouver.
Typical Regional-Centrism. The Canucks serve the hockey needs of the entire province of B.C, including the Okanogan, the Shuswap, and the Kootenays. Plus everything north of Williams lake, including Prince George, Dawson Creek, and vast rural populations.

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10-08-2012, 01:32 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
It pisses me off that I have to pay $100 just to get in the building to see my team play (not including parking, food/drinks, etc.) yet in another market they are giving fans 2 tickets, 2 hot dogs, 2 drinks, popcorn, and parking for $40. And then the league wants to take the money I spent on my ticket to support the team giving up all that for $40. Not to mention the fact that the team giving their tickets away went further in the playoffs than my team did (so it's not like I'm necessarily paying for a premium product either)...

As in any business, if your business is failing and the owner can no longer operate with those losses the business either folds or moves. There are plenty of unserved markets right now that would be profitable, yet the NHL insists on staying in these poor markets.
Bettmen will never admit it, and many others won't either, but there is clearly a bias for sunbelt teams, wanting to nurture and coddle them in a flourishing market, of which many won't. Some will, but many won't. Atlanta would have stayed had there been another arena option in the area; I'd lay my life on it. It's for "the growth of the game, future of the league" and all that yadda yadda yadda.

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10-08-2012, 01:43 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by MetalGodAOD View Post
********. I was born in Dallas, Texas and grew up 100 miles North of Sunrise, Florida. I played ball hockey in the streets and loved watching the Panthers. I moved to Orlando, 100 miles East of Tampa for college, and started watching the Lightning. Once I really started getting into hockey I switched my allegience to my hometown, but still made an effort to support the local Florida teams.

Saying a Sunbelt kid can't appreciate the game is ****ing ridiculous. I fell in love with the game on the streets in roller skates. I grew that love watching local "failing" markets. Now I'm a diehard adult hockey fan, supporting Sunbelt teams 1000 miles away from where I live. My kids will grow up hockey fans, whether of my teams or the local NE teams who knows, but I've grown the sport. The Sunbelt expansion grew the sport.
You're right, that's why I didn't say that. Mind you, outliers can be removed from data. I'm not going to base my entire opinion around 0.0002% of the local population (a hyperbole and arbitrary percent), but instead, I'll base it around the concept and the norm, if unable to use obvious logic.

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10-08-2012, 01:43 PM
  #189
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It pisses me off that I have to pay $100 just to get in the building to see my team play (not including parking, food/drinks, etc.) yet in another market they are giving fans 2 tickets, 2 hot dogs, 2 drinks, popcorn, and parking for $40. And then the league wants to take the money I spent on my ticket to support the team giving up all that for $40. Not to mention the fact that the team giving their tickets away went further in the playoffs than my team did (so it's not like I'm necessarily paying for a premium product either)...

As in any business, if your business is failing and the owner can no longer operate with those losses the business either folds or moves. There are plenty of unserved markets right now that would be profitable, yet the NHL insists on staying in these poor markets.

It's the price you pay for where you live.


I live in pittsburgh, I would go to 10-12 games per year when they sucked $25 a ticket. They are good and the prices are high, maybe not as high as toronto/montreal, but for upper level you're looking at 80+ a ticket.

So i've experienced both ends of it... I dont ***** about it, its supply and demand. My demand isn't high enough to pay those prices even though I could easily afford it. I may go to 2-4 games a year now.


It is what it is, dont cry about it.

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10-08-2012, 01:46 PM
  #190
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So, basically, "how dare they get to pay less for tickets than me"?

Y'all can always move to one of those markets if low-cost hockey is such an overwhelming priority for you, y'know.

In a few decades, some of those southern teams are likely to be high-priced tickets as well. Becoming a local institution doesn't happen overnight, or even with the first decade.

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10-08-2012, 01:47 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
It pisses me off that I have to pay $100 just to get in the building to see my team play (not including parking, food/drinks, etc.) yet in another market they are giving fans 2 tickets, 2 hot dogs, 2 drinks, popcorn, and parking for $40. And then the league wants to take the money I spent on my ticket to support the team giving up all that for $40. Not to mention the fact that the team giving their tickets away went further in the playoffs than my team did (so it's not like I'm necessarily paying for a premium product either)...

As in any business, if your business is failing and the owner can no longer operate with those losses the business either folds or moves. There are plenty of unserved markets right now that would be profitable, yet the NHL insists on staying in these poor markets.
You might have to be thankful to those "other" markets, because certainly they help to keep salaries down. Remove a bunch of weaker markets and the Salary Cap goes up. And with higher salaries, well some teams might just charge even more for tickets.

But really, if you want your ticket prices to be lower, then don't pay the price. If enough fans don't pay the price, then ticket prices will drop. Supply and demand, a big enough demand, and the prices go higher. Fans in those "weaker" markets must be loving it!

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10-08-2012, 01:51 PM
  #192
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You might have to be thankful to those "other" markets, because certainly they help to keep salaries down. Remove a bunch of weaker markets and the Salary Cap goes up. And with higher salaries, well some teams might just charge even more for tickets.

But really, if you want your ticket prices to be lower, then don't pay the price. If enough fans don't pay the price, then ticket prices will drop. Supply and demand, a big enough demand, and the prices go higher. Fans in those "weaker" markets must be loving it!
Supply and demand, 20,000 people willing to pay up front over 100 bucks a ticket. Got it. As for the 20,000 that will only pay 50 bucks a seat, well they're staying away. Where has it got them?

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10-08-2012, 01:55 PM
  #193
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So, basically, "how dare they get to pay less for tickets than me"?

Y'all can always move to one of those markets if low-cost hockey is such an overwhelming priority for you, y'know.

In a few decades, some of those southern teams are likely to be high-priced tickets as well. Becoming a local institution doesn't happen overnight, or even with the first decade.
If it's not worth having to buy season tickets for 5 grand or more. It's certainly not worth moving for.

Nothing wrong wanting to see the game on a game by game basis for 50 bucks a game though.

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10-08-2012, 01:56 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
It pisses me off that I have to pay $100 just to get in the building to see my team play (not including parking, food/drinks, etc.) yet in another market they are giving fans 2 tickets, 2 hot dogs, 2 drinks, popcorn, and parking for $40. And then the league wants to take the money I spent on my ticket to support the team giving up all that for $40. Not to mention the fact that the team giving their tickets away went further in the playoffs than my team did (so it's not like I'm necessarily paying for a premium product either)...

As in any business, if your business is failing and the owner can no longer operate with those losses the business either folds or moves. There are plenty of unserved markets right now that would be profitable, yet the NHL insists on staying in these poor markets.
Yet you've continued to pay for, and by extension support, the NHL's insistence.

We are all now very, very, very aware that the NHL is absolutely nothing but a business. As a customer of a business, if that business isn't giving you a quality product for your money, usually people don't keep giving that business their money.

You don't have to pay $100 just to get into the building, you choose to pay $100 just to get into the building.

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10-08-2012, 01:56 PM
  #195
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So, basically, "how dare they get to pay less for tickets than me"?

Y'all can always move to one of those markets if low-cost hockey is such an overwhelming priority for you, y'know.

In a few decades, some of those southern teams are likely to be high-priced tickets as well. Becoming a local institution doesn't happen overnight, or even with the first decade.
No, I agree. It is what it is. That is what happens when you have piss-poor markets in the league; they practically get in for free, while the strong markets have to pay a higher premium simply for being better markets.

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10-08-2012, 01:56 PM
  #196
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I rest my case...

16 years later and the Coyotes "fans" still need to brush up on the basics of the game every now and then.....

Before clicking on their homepage, I never even knew that the term "Advanced Hockey Lingo" even existed....


http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=69304



http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=32696


http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/page.htm?id=32697

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10-08-2012, 01:58 PM
  #197
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Supply and demand, 20,000 people willing to pay up front over 100 bucks a ticket. Got it. As for the 20,000 that will only pay 50 bucks a seat, well they're staying away. Where has it got them?
Well, it's fans like those who are willing to pay top$ which have helped to push costs up for everyone, and that includes teams. If there weren't a half a dozen cities in the League where fans are willing to spend so much, then player salaries would be lower League-wide, and many teams League-wide wouldn't be in financial difficulties. The huge disparities in the League are the root cause to all the economic differences and difficulties that exist. 24 teams in the League can't keep pace with the other 6. Hell, 3 of those 6 probably couldn't keep pace with the other 3, but in a 6-team league there'd probably be a completely different dynamic than there is now.

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10-08-2012, 02:00 PM
  #198
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No, I agree. It is what it is. That is what happens when you have piss-poor markets in the league; they practically get in for free, while the strong markets have to pay higher premium simply for being better markets.


You're still missing the point. Yell at the people around in your town that are willing to pay $100+ a ticket for ****** hockey.

If people stop going the market will adjust itself out. Your hate should reside with the people buying those tickets not the ones that supply them.

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10-08-2012, 02:01 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Well, it's fans like those who are willing to pay top$ which have helped to push costs up for everyone, and that includes teams. If there weren't a half a dozen cities in the League where fans are willing to spend so much, then player salaries would be lower League-wide, and many teams League-wide wouldn't be in financial difficulties. The huge disparities in the League are the root cause to all the economic differences and difficulties that exist. 24 teams in the League can't keep pace with the other 6. Hell, 3 of those 6 probably couldn't keep pace with the other 3, but in a 6-team league there'd probably be a completely different dynamic than there is now.
So you can see how letting more teams cut into the big market territory helps everyone. Supply and demand, problem solved.

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10-08-2012, 02:02 PM
  #200
Puckschmuck*
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czwalga View Post
You're still missing the point. Yell at the people around in your town that are willing to pay $100+ a ticket for ****** hockey.

If people stop going the market will adjust itself out. Your hate should reside with the people buying those tickets not the ones that supply them.
I have no hate for those who buy tickets. They like the product so they buy into it.

Again, it is what it is. I did not miss the point.

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