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Is it realistic to trade Grabo and make room for our prospects?

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10-10-2012, 11:50 AM
  #276
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Where did I say I don't like Kule? You have got to get your facts right when you post. Kule is the reason why the 2nd line had career years in 10-11, I have never said a bad thing about Kule, even last year. Infact I was one of the few that defended his play. Man, get your facts straight, I don't have time to correct you guys here with the misinformation you post.
8000 post in a year..... you have lots of time to correct everyone's posts

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10-10-2012, 11:51 AM
  #277
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It's too over whelming for you. Never in the history of hockey has a 29 year old improved on his stats.
Garbo would of had 60 last year but he had a long drought and Kulie had a terrible year. It's way out of the realm of possibilities that Garbo can improve on consistence and Kuile can get his game back.
You could say that about any player Grabo's age. Yes, it is possible for him to improve, but is there any reason besides Kool-Aid/Bias/Wishful Thinking to think that Grabo specifically should be EXPECTED to improve, when the majority of players at his age do not?

And your reason he didn't hit 60 points is because he had a cold streak? News flash, that's part of the ups and downs of an NHL season. And part of what separates the best players from the rest, consistency.

You could just as easily do the opposite, point out his best hot streak of the season (Feb 28 - Mar 7), say that was an anomaly, and call him a 45 point player. No, he was a 51 point player, because that's what he got. That's what he got when you add up his typical stretches, his hot stretches, and his cold stretches.

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10-10-2012, 11:52 AM
  #278
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7even, it's not even worth it. He's avoiding every rebuttle thrown at him and choosing to argue over semantics instead. Then off his high horse he'll tell us how the HFboards collective can't get their facts straight It's not even worth itt.

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10-10-2012, 11:52 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by 7even View Post


I misread a post; it happens. This is about your bizarre, irrational hate-crush on Mikhail Grabovski and your continuous and vehement denial that he's anything close to a top 6 forward when everything and everyone disagrees with you.
Do me a favour will you, HF boards is not about me, it's about hockey. I fail to see why you make things personal.

Again, It's not about me. Why don't you just stop, let's discuss hockey. Grabo is a hockey player so he is up for discussion. Am I wrong? We are free to discuss who we want, want we want as long as it is hockey related. Do you disagree with this?

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10-10-2012, 11:58 AM
  #280
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
And Burke also signed Komi to a 5 year Multi Million cap hit also. Go back to comparing Yzerman' to Grabo, you made more sense then.
Guess it was Burkes fault that Komi dropped his play off so dramatically after an all star year. Where does Komi come into all this? What about Beauchemin and Every other Burke signee get brought into this arguement.

You said that Garbo sucks because we've been a lottery team the last little while. If you are going to compare a players ability to the direct result to a team result then it should apply for every player.... Or do you just pick and chose when it applies to players you dislike? Your fingers must smell from typing *****.

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10-10-2012, 12:05 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
You could say that about any player Grabo's age. Yes, it is possible for him to improve, but is there any reason besides Kool-Aid/Bias/Wishful Thinking to think that Grabo specifically should be EXPECTED to improve, when the majority of players at his age do not?

And your reason he didn't hit 60 points is because he had a cold streak? News flash, that's part of the ups and downs of an NHL season. And part of what separates the best players from the rest, consistency.

You could just as easily do the opposite, point out his best hot streak of the season (Feb 28 - Mar 7), say that was an anomaly, and call him a 45 point player. No, he was a 51 point player, because that's what he got. That's what he got when you add up his typical stretches, his hot stretches, and his cold stretches.
So if it is possible for players to improve and there has been countless that had career years 29 or older and 58pts to 60+ isn't a huge jump..... Then I guess we can agree to disagree. I feel as if Garbo has the ability to put up 60, you do not. There's a 10 pt projected difference between us.

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10-10-2012, 12:11 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by BudMaster17 View Post
So if it is possible for players to improve and there has been countless that had career years 29 or older and 58pts to 60+ isn't a huge jump..... Then I guess we can agree to disagree. I feel as if Garbo has the ability to put up 60, you do not. There's a 10 pt projected difference between us.
More players don't make improvements at that age than players that do. Actually significantly more. Not to mention a lot of players see their point production decline at that age, probably more players see their point totals decline after ages ~25-28 then there are players that see their point totals increase.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, just that it's unlikely that Grabo is going to become a consistent 60+ point producer. If he does it once, but then falls back down and averages ~50-55 points, that won't make him a 60+ point player, that will make him a 50-55 point player that once had a career year break 60.

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10-10-2012, 12:23 PM
  #283
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Guess it was Burkes fault that Komi dropped his play off so dramatically after an all star year. Where does Komi come into all this? What about Beauchemin and Every other Burke signee get brought into this arguement.

You said that Garbo sucks because we've been a lottery team the last little while. If you are going to compare a players ability to the direct result to a team result then it should apply for every player.... Or do you just pick and chose when it applies to players you dislike? Your fingers must smell from typing *****.
Nice whiny post, do you have a hockey point somewhere in here we can discuss? Better yet maybe you can relate tol me what evidence you have to suggest Grabo is all you I assume you claim he is.

What has he exactly done in his hockey career that would bring out all this passion?

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10-10-2012, 12:29 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
What I do remember from Grabo's defensive game last season is a series of awful giveaways in the defensive zone (without Kulemin being there to bail him out), and the line getting pinned in for extended periods of time fairly often. Unfortunately, these occurrences aren't exactly quantifiable.
That's the whole point of Corsi

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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Unfortunately, there isn't a really good puck possession vs quality of competition stat available for the NHL.
Relative Corsi Quality of Competition
Grabo: 0.686
Kulemin: 0.892

Relative Corsi
Grabo: 14.9
Kulemin: 4.6

I don't think anyone's going to argue that Grabovski is a better player in his own end than Kulemin, but when you're a top-20 forward in the entire league in terms of puck possession (as measured by the relative Corsi stat, which is probably the best we have), and a top-3 forward on your team (along with your two linemates) in terms of quality of competition....

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10-10-2012, 12:40 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Nice whiny post, do you have a hockey point somewhere in here we can discuss? Better yet maybe you can relate tol me what evidence you have to suggest Grabo is all you I assume you claim he is.

What has he exactly done in his hockey career that would bring out all this passion?
Only point I have is that you have no point, I've proved that already. Keep on posting though, you must live an exciting life. 8000 posts in a year is unreal. Have you been outside? Your the bubble boy of HF

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10-10-2012, 12:54 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Do me a favour will you, HF boards is not about me, it's about hockey. I fail to see why you make things personal.

Again, It's not about me. Why don't you just stop, let's discuss hockey. Grabo is a hockey player so he is up for discussion. Am I wrong? We are free to discuss who we want, want we want as long as it is hockey related. Do you disagree with this?
Aight man I'm done. Every time I call you on something or try to get a straight answer from you, you either deflect, put words in my mouth, or just change the subject entirely. So whatever, I'll concede this one to you: Grabovski is a mediocre centre who'll be lucky to score 30 points next year and his prior success is 100% due to either mooching off more talented linemates, or being a complete pick hog. I never really was sure which one it was. Players like him are *exactly* what's wrong with the Leafs, point taken. Enjoy your afternoon.


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Originally Posted by Frank Stallone View Post
That's the whole point of Corsi


Relative Corsi Quality of Competition
Grabo: 0.686
Kulemin: 0.892

Relative Corsi
Grabo: 14.9
Kulemin: 4.6

I don't think anyone's going to argue that Grabovski is a better player in his own end than Kulemin, but when you're a top-20 forward in the entire league in terms of puck possession (as measured by the relative Corsi stat, which is probably the best we have), and a top-3 forward on your team (along with your two linemates) in terms of quality of competition....
Don't waste your time man. I've been down this exact same road with them. It's an exercise in futility.

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10-10-2012, 12:59 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
You have a short memory or a convenient one, do I have to waste my time here correcting the record? You said Grabo had 1 more pt than Bozak had last year in his rookie year, I pointed out Grabo played 5 more games than Bozak did, it's basic math. Bozak had the better PPG average.
And I pointed out that he was playing with better players.

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10-10-2012, 12:59 PM
  #288
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When did this turn into a Bozak vs Grabovski thread?

Bozak has good enough chemistry with Lupul and Kessel to be a stop gap until we get a real #1C in my opinion. And no, I don't think Grabo will be that #1C.

People dumping on him is ridiculous. He's got elite skill & skating, small but competes every shift & btw no one is giving him credit for Kulemin & Mac having career years of their own but saying they're responsible for Grabo's career year. huh? Grabo had .02 less ppg when Kuli and Mac both had down years. How does that explain them being reponsible for Grabo having a career year in 10-11?

Anyway. back to the OP. Why would we trade a guy who we just rewarded a 5 year deal to who also happens to easily be our most talented centerman? I see your arugment with him getting in the way of prospects, but dont get it. As of right now McKegg is entering his 1st year of professional hockey, Colborne coming off a major injury, and Kadri predominantly playing on the wing. Maybe in 2-3 years time after McKegg develops a bit he could be our #2 guy, but you also stressed that size and strength is a must at #2C. McKegg is listed at 1 inch taller and 3 lbs heavier than Grabo. How does that fit your bill? Colborne I would rather see another year of grooming, slotted in the 3 spot and then see if he's actually capable of raising his game to the #2 spot.

Long story short - I don't even think Grabovski is in the way of anybody and REALLY don't think it makes one lick of sense to trade him to slot in unproven young guys.
Because of all the above reasons. I will list them again.

-not an ideal 2C
-consistency issues
-not very physical
-did not show up when the leafs were in a playoff race last year
-58 points is his absolute ceiling


Grabo doesn't have a NTC so he can be moved if Burke sees an opportunity.

Keeping Grabo means 25th place.
Trading Grabo means 25th place.

If you're going to lose you might as well doing it while seeing what you have. If Grabo was traded tomorrow and Kadri filled his spot on the 2C I don't thing you'd hear too many people complaining (especially on this board).

In short we lose with Grabo.

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10-10-2012, 01:01 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Kessel had a career year playing with Bozak last year, is this the game you are playing with me?
Kessel had a career year playing with Lupul, what are you even trying to pull? When Lupul went down, Kessel's production dropped.

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10-10-2012, 01:06 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Kessel maintained his PPG play throughout the entire season whether it was for Wilson or Carlyle and when Lupul went down. Grabo slumped when Kule went down and when Carlyle replaced Wilson. Facts are a wonderful thing aren't they?

One continues to produce regardless of who his linemates or coaches are, the other only has excuses.
Kule was down for the whole season and Grabo still produced at the same pace as his last season. Kessel's production also dropped when Lupul went down. Pretty sure he was under PPG in that time frame. He still got some points, but that's to be expected of someone with his talents. He's more talented than Grabo, but we're not talking Kessel vs Grabo.

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10-10-2012, 01:19 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Bozak was 5th on the team in hits last season (behind Schenn, Phaneuf, Brown and Steckel), with more than double the amount of hits that Grabo registered. He's also been over 1 hit / game since he's entered the league in a mostly non-aggressive defensive forward role. In the last two seasons combined, Bozak registered more hits than Grabo has throughout his career.

It's hardly about one hit in one game.



Grabo duking it out in front of the net? All right, you must have been watching different games, since the Grabovski I've seen is very much a perimeter player.

Speaking of not shying away from the front of the net, though, guess who that is?





And he still sucks at it.



It's more than just Kessel. In the preseason, the Kadri-Bozak-Armstrong line was our best line for a stretch of 10 games or so that they were together for. Then let's not forget his chemistry with Crabb last season, both on the PK and on the 3rd line. Before Lupul's arrival, the LW spot on the Kessel line was a revolving door, so just in that season alone, Bozak's probably played with more linemates than Grabo did throughout his career. Bozak did fairly well that season, especially considering that it was his first full NHL season, and that he was thrown into a pretty bad situation as our "#1C".

And besides, it's not really Bozak's fault that Grabo can't be that effective with Kessel on his wing.

The 10-11 "first line" chemistry had very little to do with Grabovski. It's mostly Kulemin who was doing the dirty work that allowed the line to succeed. Not surprisingly, when Kulemin was slumping this season, that line "coincidentally" went down the crapper.
I'll just leave this here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6TZorR3VHo

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10-10-2012, 01:23 PM
  #292
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It may not be the perfect time(whatever that is) but I wouldn't be upset if Grabovski was traded provided it made the Team better.
There is not one player on the entire roster or in the system that I couldn't say the same thing about. Grabovski included.

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10-10-2012, 01:29 PM
  #293
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Because of all the above reasons. I will list them again.

-not an ideal 2C
-consistency issues
-not very physical
-did not show up when the leafs were in a playoff race last year
-58 points is his absolute ceiling


Grabo doesn't have a NTC so he can be moved if Burke sees an opportunity.

Keeping Grabo means 25th place.
Trading Grabo means 25th place.

If you're going to lose you might as well doing it while seeing what you have. If Grabo was traded tomorrow and Kadri filled his spot on the 2C I don't thing you'd hear too many people complaining (especially on this board).

In short we lose with Grabo.
Phaneuf plays more minutes, so they lose more with Phaneuf.

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10-10-2012, 01:32 PM
  #294
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It may not be the perfect time(whatever that is) but I wouldn't be upset if Grabovski was traded provided it made the Team better.
Yes, no one on the team is untouchable if making the team better.

Realistically speaking they'd have to trade for a center before they traded their best center, whereas they could trade all the prospects without hurting the team.

Playoffs are required this year.

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10-10-2012, 01:35 PM
  #295
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Yes, no one on the team is untouchable if making the team better.

Realistically speaking they'd have to trade for a center before they traded their best center, whereas they could trade all the prospects without hurting the team.

Playoffs are required this year.
Very true. A team that has been mired in mediocrity for this long shouldn't have an 'untouchable' list. If moving a player to better the team is possible, I hope our management doesn't stutter (shades of stuttering to acquire M. Richards, if the rumours were true).

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10-10-2012, 01:48 PM
  #296
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Aight man I'm done. Every time I call you on something or try to get a straight answer from you, you either deflect, put words in my mouth, or just change the subject entirely. So whatever, I'll concede this one to you: Grabovski is a mediocre centre who'll be lucky to score 30 points next year and his prior success is 100% due to either mooching off more talented linemates, or being a complete pick hog. I never really was sure which one it was. Players like him are *exactly* what's wrong with the Leafs, point taken. Enjoy your afternoon.




Don't waste your time man. I've been down this exact same road with them. It's an exercise in futility.
What deflection are you referring to, I have coversed with you on all the hockey issues that we have discussed. I addressed that the Core Nucleus of this team and the need for change given that we have been a lottery team 2 of the last 4 seasons, evidence a need for change for some, wouldn't you say?

You mistakenly assumed I was negative on Kulumen when I was not, so we discussed this, you tried to call me on corsi stats, and I posted a link for you to examine that Crosby indeed was 10th in corsi on the Pens along with an article from an award winning jouralist you scoffed at. So what exactly am I deflecting here? Grabo is not even a 60 pt center, is this up for contention? Connolly is, a 65 pt center to be exact. We got him for nothing more than money. So why is Grabo so impossible to replace? Grabo has been part of the top 6 core players the longest with this team, does he not bare some responsibility for our mediocre record the past 4 years when you are supposed to be an important player on the team? What exactly is distorted about this?

The rest are opinions, I happen to think Bozak was better than Grabo once Carlyle came in, and given the statstistical evidence of Grabo's late season dive, is this incorrect also? I cite the last 2 stanley cup winners top 2 centers to draw into attention the need to upgrade at this position if we want to contend for a cup. I did a more extensive list awhile back, but mods probably don't want this to be repeat of that previous thread, but if you want I can PM it to you if you want, statistical evidence. Again what deflection? What is so wrong about my analysis?

I and some happen to think Kule is the most valuable member of the 2nd line, is this outrageous also given that he is the best defensive player on the team, a monster in the corners, and a once 30 goal scorer? I think Kadri will be a 50 pt center one day, and probably even 60 pts with more intangibles. He can use linemates unlike Grabo based on what I have seen of him in junior and parts of AHL/NHL experience. Outrageous again? Or maybe the truth stings.

Now some, think Grabo is all that, I happen to disagree, that is a discussion. But where exactly did I not address a topic, it seems to me the Grabo enablers are the one's deflecting here by trying to make it about me.


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10-10-2012, 02:01 PM
  #297
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Very true. A team that has been mired in mediocrity for this long shouldn't have an 'untouchable' list. If moving a player to better the team is possible, I hope our management doesn't stutter (shades of stuttering to acquire M. Richards, if the rumours were true).
The M. Richards part is untrue. Burke made an offer and Holmgren said he'd call him back, he never did. Can't blame Burke for that.

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10-10-2012, 02:08 PM
  #298
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It may not be the perfect time(whatever that is) but I wouldn't be upset if Grabovski was traded provided it made the Team better.
Realistically, I don't think many would complain if any player was traded so long as the trade made the team better. This thread is asking if Grabo should be traded to make room for prospects. That doesn't make the team better. It has higher potential to make the team worse, especially since we don't have any centre in our system that is expected to become the kind of player that Grabo already is.

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10-10-2012, 02:15 PM
  #299
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Originally Posted by HockeyCrazed101 View Post
Realistically, I don't think many would complain if any player was traded so long as the trade made the team better. This thread is asking if Grabo should be traded to make room for prospects. That doesn't make the team better. It has higher potential to make the team worse, especially since we don't have any centre in our system that is expected to become the kind of player that Grabo already is.
That's a good summary.

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10-10-2012, 02:16 PM
  #300
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Grabovski was re-signed due to the fact he is still one of Leafs better forwards, and likely because an easy case could be made that he remains the teams best center for what its worth. flaws and all.

Could Burke have dealt him for an upgrade, sure if that were an option, he likely would have entertained the idea.. However Grabs was a UFA-to-be as his contract was expiring, and there was also a possibility he could have walked away for free of asset return to the Leafs.

So faced with the option of retaining the productive and contributing Grabovski for the Leafs team as opposed to trading him (for an undesirable return), or worse case losing him for nothing the option to re-sign was the correct one.

The underlying reason being that there is no one in the current Leafs system capable of taking his job on merit, and being able to guarantee the same contribution to the Leafs.

If as much credit is to be given to Grabo so should the blame. I don't care about his stats (ok maybe a little), and YouTube highlight videos. I care about wins. Grabo did not make this team win. He did not elevate his game when he was supposed to. I know he shouldnt shoulder all the blame, but he certainly will get some from me. If he was a winner we wouldn't be having this lengthy debate. I would say: "Great. Re-sign him.", but no. I want him gone, and I want to see what our prospects have. Maybe they won't go on a 15 game goalless streak in a playoff race!

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