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Old
10-11-2012, 09:40 PM
  #101
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Well I never thought that this thread would spark so much discussion haha. I pretty much only posted it cuz I wanted to see Tavares and Subban back in action together... and I thought it would be a great marketing wise to have another black dude on the team if they end up moving to the Barclays center in BK. It's been a real interesting read though...

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10-13-2012, 05:41 PM
  #102
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i see rienhart being better than subban within the next 3 years so no thanks

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10-13-2012, 11:46 PM
  #103
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i see rienhart being better than subban within the next 3 years so no thanks
Agree.

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10-14-2012, 02:58 AM
  #104
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i see rienhart being better than subban within the next 3 years so no thanks
5 or 6 maybe, but 3 is stretching things a bit.

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10-14-2012, 10:06 AM
  #105
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Pernell isn't an offensive defenseman, he's a powerplay specialist. He's not a shut-down defenseman, nor a true puck-mover, either. He's an oddball hybrid like you get sometimes. I liked him a lot in 2010, but he still seems to get more respect for his potential than for his actual game.

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10-14-2012, 10:32 AM
  #106
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Subban is underrated from some people I see!

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10-14-2012, 10:58 AM
  #107
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Subban is underrated from some people I see!
Yeah, he's a "hot button" player, and I think a lot of people form their opinion of him from highlight packages or from the visitor-viewing perspective in a handful of games, but very few fans of other teams really seem to understand PK or the way he plays, the last few posts in this thread are great examples of that. A lot of people post descriptions of PK that are just incomprehensible to those of us who have watched him play basically every game. But he's still young and as people get to see more of him, that will probably change.

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10-14-2012, 11:16 AM
  #108
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Subban is underrated from some people I see!
i feel like he will become criticized the same way as phenuef, he is a great hitter, can put up good numbers offensively but his defensive awareness is terrible and he gives up a ton of penalties which is an awful thing for a number 1 or 2 dman to be doing

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10-14-2012, 11:21 AM
  #109
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PK is already a proven top 4 dman and mayby can develope into a legit #1 or #2....I dont think Mtl wants to give him up for unproven prospects, even if they are rated high.


Thats like MTL wanting

Hamonic

for

Tinordi
Nokelainen
White


Edit- Grabner and Martin make this trade interesting


I dont think there is one Isles fan who would do this...


Last edited by StrongIslanders90: 10-14-2012 at 11:22 AM. Reason: didnt realize Martin and Grabner were in the op
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Old
10-14-2012, 11:27 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud12 View Post
Subban is underrated from some people I see!
I have the same thought about Hamonic.

Isles and their fans feel he's a developing young stud, while opposing fans in trade threads consider him to be a solid young defenseman.

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10-14-2012, 11:31 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by startainfection View Post
i feel like he will become criticized the same way as phenuef, he is a great hitter, can put up good numbers offensively but his defensive awareness is terrible and he gives up a ton of penalties which is an awful thing for a number 1 or 2 dman to be doing
oh good, go watch him play before said thing like that. Subban is good without the puck and is defensive play is good and will coming better with experience....

Subban>Rienhart and NYI will be happy if he become at the same level of PK

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10-14-2012, 11:36 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
I have the same thought about Hamonic.

Isles and their fans feel he's a developing young stud, while opposing fans in trade threads consider him to be a solid young defenseman.
Yeah. Hamonic is a underdog and he's good in all situations and he his tough. I would give a ton to have him on my team. He is a future capitain material...

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10-14-2012, 09:17 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by 8spokesontheB View Post
Pernell isn't an offensive defenseman, he's a powerplay specialist. He's not a shut-down defenseman, nor a true puck-mover, either. He's an oddball hybrid like you get sometimes. I liked him a lot in 2010, but he still seems to get more respect for his potential than for his actual game.
One of the worst description i have every seen on the board.The furthers thing from the truth.
Some times i think people write down stuff without even having any knowledge about the player. Sorry bud butThis i believe is one of those instances.

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10-15-2012, 09:29 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
Yeah, he's a "hot button" player, and I think a lot of people form their opinion of him from highlight packages or from the visitor-viewing perspective in a handful of games, but very few fans of other teams really seem to understand PK or the way he plays, the last few posts in this thread are great examples of that. A lot of people post descriptions of PK that are just incomprehensible to those of us who have watched him play basically every game. But he's still young and as people get to see more of him, that will probably change.
I think you're certainly right about this.

The actual fans are going to know his defensive game to a better extent than fans who see him occassionally and then in highlights and on TSN reportages.

One can't forget though that much of the attention he's gotten has been for either hot-shot skill displays, gaffs, poor decisions, his high-fiving ceremony with Price, and the attitude or statement-related ongoings with respect to things he's been doing/saying on the ice (i.e. his youthful enthusiasm), especially the incident with Richards (if I remember correctly). He's a more explosive personality and crowd-pleaser. Ultimately, outsiders are seeing him for his showmanship.

As such, it's tough for the rest of the league to pick up on any upper class defensive skills he may be developing. Few can hardly be criticized for thinking that, in light of Montreal's record last season and the few drops in his personal point-gathering, that Subban's defensive game is also at the heights many of the team's fans have expressed in this thread.

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10-15-2012, 10:04 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by StrongIslanders90 View Post
Thats like MTL wanting

Hamonic

for

Tinordi
Nokelainen
White

Edit- Grabner and Martin make this trade interesting
Glad you caught that in your edit and I know what you're getting at, but as much as we can commend Nokelainen for his work despite the chronic knee problems, look at White as a possible up-n-comer in a lower line capacity and say that Tinordi has size and upside, none of them effectively offer the level of ability or serve the purpose that their NYI comparatives in the OP.

We're talking about one of the fastest wingers in the league who has 54 goals in two seasons along with the Islanders' fan fave and top identity player who also happens to be its best fighter and the NHL's top checker as well as a Dman prospect who the Isles already see as having an impact at the NHL level equivalent to that of a Subban at some point in the near future.

I don't fault a Habs fan for not understanding what these pieces mean for the Isles, but I'd have to say that Habs fans should imagine that an Isles fan would be making something like the following offer:

Hamonic

for

Eller
Prust
One of Beaulieu/Tinordi/Thrower

And even at that, I feel Grabner currently has more value than Eller, Martin more than Prust and each of de Haan/Donovan/Reinhart than the names mentioned, even if that could change in the next few years.

Still, I would think Habs fans would not necessarily like to throw in all those elements for one Hamonic.

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Old
10-15-2012, 10:20 AM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Glad you caught that in your edit and I know what you're getting at, but as much as we can commend Nokelainen for his work despite the chronic knee problems, look at White as a possible up-n-comer in a lower line capacity and say that Tinordi has size and upside, none of them effectively offer the level of ability or serve the purpose that their NYI comparatives in the OP.

We're talking about one of the fastest wingers in the league who has 54 goals in two seasons along with the Islanders' fan fave and top identity player who also happens to be its best fighter and the NHL's top checker as well as a Dman prospect who the Isles already see as having an impact at the NHL level equivalent to that of a Subban at some point in the near future.

I don't fault a Habs fan for not understanding what these pieces mean for the Isles, but I'd have to say that Habs fans should imagine that an Isles fan would be making something like the following offer:

Hamonic

for

Eller
Prust
One of Beaulieu/Tinordi/Thrower

And even at that, I feel Grabner currently has more value than Eller, Martin more than Prust and each of de Haan/Donovan/Reinhart than the names mentioned, even if that could change in the next few years.

Still, I would think Habs fans would not necessarily like to throw in all those elements for one Hamonic.
I personally would never swap Eller for Grabner, and I also believe Subban has more value than Hamonic (if we remove both fanbases' opinions from the equation), but I agree your mock proposal is closer to the OP than the one you quoted.

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Old
10-15-2012, 01:08 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by startainfection View Post
i feel like he will become criticized the same way as phenuef, he is a great hitter, can put up good numbers offensively but his defensive awareness is terrible and he gives up a ton of penalties which is an awful thing for a number 1 or 2 dman to be doing
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I can not believe the criticism Subban still takes. He has developed into a fine first pairing D, he makes a great first pass, plays with fire, is fast, strong, and far more defensively responsible than he gets credit for. It's like people watched him in the WJC and a bit of his first NHL season then just never thought he'd ever change or improve at all.

As for the OP, I definitely think the value is there and in a vacuum it's arguably a fair trade, but I think Subban is probably untouchable as a Habs fan. I can't see the Canadiens dealing him for anything less than a "knock your socks off" kind of deal. Dealing Subban gives Montreal a seriously weak defense. I like Grabner, I'd probably slot him on the 2nd line LW with Plekanec and Gionta, then Bourque could move down to the third line with Eller and Moen/Prust/Armstrong/White. It definitely improves the forward group, but at the cost of turning an already weak D into some serious Swiss cheese. Matt Martin is a good throw-in, but he's a bit redundant, Montreal's bottom 6 is pretty good and we don't need another grinder down there (especially with Grabner being included and Bourque presumably sliding down to the third line.)

It's just that without Subban, Montreal's D would look like this...

Markov-Gorges
Kaberle-Emelin
Boullion-Diaz
Weber/St. Denis

We'd be in the MacKinnon/Jones discussion with that group.


Last edited by Noob616: 10-15-2012 at 01:18 PM.
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Old
10-15-2012, 01:52 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by 8spokesontheB View Post
Pernell isn't an offensive defenseman, he's a powerplay specialist. He's not a shut-down defenseman, nor a true puck-mover, either. He's an oddball hybrid like you get sometimes. I liked him a lot in 2010, but he still seems to get more respect for his potential than for his actual game.
P.K. is a two-way dman. He's not an PP specialist. This just show's you don't know him.

His PP was the worst part of his game last season.

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10-15-2012, 02:04 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Chapin Landvogt View Post
Glad you caught that in your edit and I know what you're getting at, but as much as we can commend Nokelainen for his work despite the chronic knee problems, look at White as a possible up-n-comer in a lower line capacity and say that Tinordi has size and upside, none of them effectively offer the level of ability or serve the purpose that their NYI comparatives in the OP.

We're talking about one of the fastest wingers in the league who has 54 goals in two seasons along with the Islanders' fan fave and top identity player who also happens to be its best fighter and the NHL's top checker as well as a Dman prospect who the Isles already see as having an impact at the NHL level equivalent to that of a Subban at some point in the near future.

I don't fault a Habs fan for not understanding what these pieces mean for the Isles, but I'd have to say that Habs fans should imagine that an Isles fan would be making something like the following offer:

Hamonic

for

Eller
Prust
One of Beaulieu/Tinordi/Thrower

And even at that, I feel Grabner currently has more value than Eller, Martin more than Prust and each of de Haan/Donovan/Reinhart than the names mentioned, even if that could change in the next few years.

Still, I would think Habs fans would not necessarily like to throw in all those elements for one Hamonic.
Eller is 22, Grabner is 25. One his a center the other a winger. One his a physical freak, the other a average sized(yet really fast and agile) guy and both could be pegged 20-20 guys(more 15-15 for Eller though.)

I'd NEVER switch Grabner for Eller. Oh and Grabner played most of the time with Bailey, Nielsen, Tavares, Parenteau, Okposo and Reasoner. Not a super good line up. But compared to Blunden, Moen, AK, Geoffrion, Gomez and some little time with Patches and Cole (One game.) it's pretty good.
And you're being an homer now saying Tinordi, Beaulieu and Thrower has less value than Dehaan, Donovan and Reinhart. They are fantastic Dman's but Beaulieu is a bluechip prospect just like Reinhart. If anything, I think it's pretty equal.

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10-15-2012, 02:10 PM
  #120
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oh good, go watch him play before said thing like that. Subban is good without the puck and is defensive play is good and will coming better with experience....

Subban>Rienhart and NYI will be happy if he become at the same level of PK
good dmen don't take tons of penalties because they stay in good enough position so they won't need to

subban is not a good dman

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10-15-2012, 02:13 PM
  #121
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good dmen don't take tons of penalties because they stay in good enough position so they won't need to

subban is not a good dman
Very strong argument.

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10-15-2012, 02:54 PM
  #122
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One of the worst description i have every seen on the board.The furthers thing from the truth.
Some times i think people write down stuff without even having any knowledge about the player. Sorry bud butThis i believe is one of those instances.
It is actually not completely innacurate. Now, calling PK a PP specialist is 100% wrong. However, calling him a hybrid player who incorporates the best aspects of both offence and defence IS accurate. PK is a hybrid player capable of playing both ends of the ice in ALL situations (PK, PP, ES).

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10-15-2012, 03:00 PM
  #123
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Very strong argument.
Well that must mean Pronger wasn't a good D-man.

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10-15-2012, 03:05 PM
  #124
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It is actually not completely innacurate. Now, calling PK a PP specialist is 100% wrong. However, calling him a hybrid player who incorporates the best aspects of both offence and defence IS accurate. PK is a hybrid player capable of playing both ends of the ice in ALL situations (PK, PP, ES).


Your explanition above just describes any very good all around D-man not some
oddball hybrid D-man.

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10-15-2012, 03:29 PM
  #125
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good dmen don't take tons of penalties because they stay in good enough position so they won't need to

subban is not a good dman
What ?

P.K.'s took 12 roughing penalty, that doesnt mean he's out of position. It's his highest total. He only had 3 hooking wich means he was likely out of position.

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