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NHL to Expand 2 teams in Canada - THN

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Old
10-12-2012, 10:24 PM
  #351
htpwn
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Originally Posted by KingJet View Post
Quebec and Hamilton? I think Saskatoon wouldn't be a bad idea instead of Hamilton, they have an MTS Centre style rink, and hardcore sports fans.
They also have a population of 260,000. To put that in comparison:

It is 1/10 the size of Toronto.
... less than half the size of Mississauga.
... half the size of Brampton.
...half the size of Hamilton.
...half the size of Kitchener-Waterloo.
... half the size of the population the Greater Toronto Area added between 2006-2011.
...3/4 of the size of Niagara-St. Catharines.
...3/4 of the size of London.
...3/4 of the size of Oshawa.
...smaller than Vaughan and Markham.

... around 1/27th the size of the Golden Horseshoe.

Putting a team in a city as small as Saskatoon would be stupidity. To do it instead of a second Southern Ontario team would be indescribable.


Last edited by kdb209: 10-12-2012 at 10:33 PM. Reason: flame retardant
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10-12-2012, 10:32 PM
  #352
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Quebec and Hamilton? I think Saskatoon wouldn't be a bad idea instead of Hamilton, they have an MTS Centre style rink, and hardcore sports fans.
Are you serious? Have you been to both of this rinks?

Yes they have the same amount of seats but the CUC in Saskatoon is no where near a NHL quality arena...

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10-12-2012, 11:37 PM
  #353
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Would Buffalo survive that happening?
Sure they would. 85% of their STHs are from the U.S., they have a deep pocketed owner, and a STH waiting list of thousands.

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10-13-2012, 02:14 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Miles & miles away. Couldnt care less what they do. Its a mid-sized US market with which the city of Toronto shares nothing. But, BUT, you drop a team in Hamilton, that dynamic changes. With that bridge, easier to identify. Especially so if through realignment there grouped in the same Division. Savvy?

B) So, Buffalo sells 99.8% of their tickets already do they? Sounds pretty healthy to me. Now imagine a situation whereby Hamilton, Toronto & Markham visit 3X's or more per year per team driving the cost per ducat through the roof, Buffalo able to charge more. Follow?

C) No, they wont hurt Buffalo. They wont hurt the Sabres. On the contrary. They will help that franchise in addition to the Canadian, Great Lakes US, indeed, the rest of the league as right out of the box, money-making machines.
A) That still makes no sense to me.

B) Buffalo has dynamic pricing, based on the day of game and the opponent. They've set their prices pretty much according to what the market will bear. And they've actually discovered that opponent is the LEAST of the variables important to the attendance. One of their few non-sellouts came against the Leafs a few years back, because of the day and time of the game; which the Sabres have zero control over.

C) That's more money for Hamilton; and Markham, who we also just added in there (and if we did, would require someone sliding to the West either negating the alleged positives of adding the team in the first place unless Pittsburgh is headed West). Either way, expansion lowers the number of games vs the teams in the division according to the 4x8 realignment plan where you place everyone twice.


Last edited by danishh: 10-13-2012 at 02:24 AM.
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Old
10-13-2012, 02:53 AM
  #355
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thats what ppl said when Ottawa got a team...your either a leafs or habs fan lol

stupid people think that way
it's not stupid. I grew up through it. It's a very real issue that needs to be considered. In the long-term, it's not a problem, but in the short term, it's going to be a very real issue that the franchise will have to deal with.

from my experience in ottawa:

Years 1-2: Yay, we have an NHL team.
Years 2-10: Crap, we have a terrible expansion team.
Years 10-20: Fanbase now growing (up, as 'sens kids' such as myself now start going to games, maybe even buying tickets themselves instead of relying on mom and dad).

Looking at vancouver, even in the early 00's, leafs games in vancouver were dominated by leafs fans. Leafs playoff series packed bars in vancouver.


I'd say years 2-20 are going to be tough years for hamilton/markham/kw fans if the team performs anything like the typical expansion team, and it will take a full 40 years before homegrown fans reach the age that they make up the majority of the ticket-buying public. It's going to affect attendance, it's certainly going to affect advertising revenue, and it's going to affect the profile of the team on the national stage.

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10-13-2012, 03:00 AM
  #356
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Really? There is no way Saskatoon could sustain NHL hockey. 230,000 people is just not enough - 700,000 is the minimum you would want in a Canadian city. Double or triple that in the US.
there is always one Saskatoon person. Expect a Halifax person soon

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10-13-2012, 07:47 AM
  #357
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I've a couple of questions, for anyone who remembers the last expansion draft.


1.Is the available talent pool limited to NHL rosters/nhl players?

2.Are the teams that are making players available, protected from losing no more then a certain number of players?

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10-13-2012, 08:36 AM
  #358
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I am not a fan of expansion, regardless of where the team goes.
As far as I am concernef, there are 6 teams too many

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10-13-2012, 09:01 AM
  #359
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I am not a fan of expansion, regardless of where the team goes. As far as I am concernef, there are 6 teams too many

I see you list your location at Winnipeg.
Were you so anti-expansion, before Winnipeg got the Thrashers?

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10-13-2012, 09:33 AM
  #360
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I see you list your location at Winnipeg.
Were you so anti-expansion, before Winnipeg got the Thrashers?
Yes, I hace always been against expansion.
Even before relocation, I want contraction.

Am I happy we got a team back? Yeah sure. But if teams were folded before a team relocated here, wouldnt have bothered me a bit.

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10-13-2012, 09:48 AM
  #361
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
They also have a population of 260,000. To put that in comparison:

It is 1/10 the size of Toronto.
... less than half the size of Mississauga.
... half the size of Brampton.
...half the size of Hamilton.
...half the size of Kitchener-Waterloo.
... half the size of the population the Greater Toronto Area added between 2006-2011.
...3/4 of the size of Niagara-St. Catharines.
...3/4 of the size of London.
...3/4 of the size of Oshawa.
...smaller than Vaughan and Markham.

... around 1/27th the size of the Golden Horseshoe.

Putting a team in a city as small as Saskatoon would be stupidity. To do it instead of a second Southern Ontario team would be indescribable.
Saskatoon is roughly twice the size of Oshawa... just saying.

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10-13-2012, 09:50 AM
  #362
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Man I hope Seattle gets a team living in Victoria.

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10-13-2012, 10:12 AM
  #363
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
B) So, Buffalo sells 99.8% of their tickets already do they? Sounds pretty healthy to me. Now imagine a situation whereby Hamilton, Toronto & Markham visit 3X's or more per year per team driving the cost per ducat through the roof, Buffalo able to charge more.
Haven't been to a Sabres game in years. Used to go to the occasional game, but the long drive coupled with the border crossing is too much of an obstacle for me.

During Balsillie's ticket deposit episode, it was exciting to see so many of us at my work scrambling and putting money down for seats. Sold out in a day or two.

Everyone, at my work was talking about going to Buffalo to watch Hamilton play, if we could get tickets. Imagine what that demand would do for those ticket prices?

Yeah, I also believe that market is so strong here that it would actually help.

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10-13-2012, 11:16 AM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Won't be another team in Toronto. Quebec and Seattle will get teams.
So when the next CBA ends we can expect another lockout to support Seattle?

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10-13-2012, 11:57 AM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Haven't been to a Sabres game in years. Used to go to the occasional game, but the long drive coupled with the border crossing is too much of an obstacle for me.... During Balsillie's ticket deposit episode, it was exciting to see so many of us at my work scrambling and putting money down for seats. Sold out in a day or two. Everyone, at my work was talking about going to Buffalo to watch Hamilton play, if we could get tickets. Imagine what that demand would do for those ticket prices?... Yeah, I also believe that market is so strong here that it would actually help.
... I remember when I lived in Toronto I went once. It was like a days journey there and back, the weather uncooperative, line-ups of grocery shoppers at the Border coming & going. If I lived in Niagara Falls or Niagara on the Lake then sure, but not all the way from Toronto, Hamilton or the Kitchener-Waterloo area. Since 911 of course Border crossings even more annoying, time consuming, interminable. If its a Saturday or Sunday game and youve got the time, then sure, and I could see bars in Hamilton sending bus loads down to Buffalo. Fans' poured in, poured out.

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10-13-2012, 12:11 PM
  #366
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Saskatoon is roughly twice the size of Oshawa... just saying.
Yes, but Saskatoon is in the middle of nowhere while Oshawa is suburban Toronto.

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10-13-2012, 12:12 PM
  #367
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Yes, but Saskatoon is in the middle of nowhere while Oshawa is suburban Toronto.
Yes, but I was only referring to the fact that he said Saskatoon was 3/4 the size of Oshawa; nothing beyond that.

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10-13-2012, 12:27 PM
  #368
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Greater Toronto could probably support 3 teams. The closest analogy I can think of is English football in London, with Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, Fulham and Queens Park Rangers all in the same city, with allegiances determined by geography, class, history, and culture. (And that's just the top division of English football). Obviously, Toronto is smaller than London.

Don't know what that would do to US television to have a division's worth of Toronto variants playing each other .

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10-13-2012, 01:50 PM
  #369
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... I remember when I lived in Toronto I went once. It was like a days journey there and back, the weather uncooperative, line-ups of grocery shoppers at the Border coming & going. If I lived in Niagara Falls or Niagara on the Lake then sure, but not all the way from Toronto, Hamilton or the Kitchener-Waterloo area. Since 911 of course Border crossings even more annoying, time consuming, interminable. If its a Saturday or Sunday game and youve got the time, then sure, and I could see bars in Hamilton sending bus loads down to Buffalo. Fans' poured in, poured out.
In my experience it's easier to go to Buffalo games from Kitchener than to go to Detroit or even Toronto games. It's a 3 1/2 hour drive to Detroit, next to impossible to find parking in Detroit so it's a lot easier to park in Windsor and take the bus which makes it worse, in Toronto parking is extremely expensive and the highway is just jammed packed unless you leave in the middle of the afternoon, Buffalo takes about 1 1/2 hours and it's a lot easier to find parking. I've went an hour before the game started in Buffalo and found parking.

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there is always one Saskatoon person. Expect a Halifax person soon
Saskatoon is going to get a lot of attention because it's a boom town that could have Calgary-eqsue growth in the next 30 years. Not saying it's a good market now but it will be.

Halifax people don't really have that much of an arguement though. Halifax isn't exactly booming, it's small and isn't that close to other major population centers though I guess they could draw from all of mainland Nova Scotia and some of New Brunswick.

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Originally Posted by AlienLanes82 View Post
Greater Toronto could probably support 3 teams. The closest analogy I can think of is English football in London, with Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenham, Fulham and Queens Park Rangers all in the same city, with allegiances determined by geography, class, history, and culture. (And that's just the top division of English football). Obviously, Toronto is smaller than London.

Don't know what that would do to US television to have a division's worth of Toronto variants playing each other .
Five million more (London Metro vs. Golden Horsewhoe, about 13 million vs. 8.5 million), but yeah just the numbers support a large amount of teams.

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10-13-2012, 02:25 PM
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
In my experience it's easier to go to Buffalo games from Kitchener than to go to Detroit or even Toronto games. It's a 3 1/2 hour drive to Detroit, next to impossible to find parking in Detroit so it's a lot easier to park in Windsor and take the bus which makes it worse, in Toronto parking is extremely expensive and the highway is just jammed packed unless you leave in the middle of the afternoon, Buffalo takes about 1 1/2 hours and it's a lot easier to find parking. I've went an hour before the game started in Buffalo and found parking.



Saskatoon is going to get a lot of attention because it's a boom town that could have Calgary-eqsue growth in the next 30 years. Not saying it's a good market now but it will be.

Halifax people don't really have that much of an arguement though. Halifax isn't exactly booming, it's small and isn't that close to other major population centers though I guess they could draw from all of mainland Nova Scotia and some of New Brunswick.



Five million more (London Metro vs. Golden Horsewhoe, about 13 million vs. 8.5 million), but yeah just the numbers support a large amount of teams.
Halifax, like its Atlantic Canadian neighbors, already tried the AHL Model, as far back as acquiring the Voyageurs in 1969 from Montreal, the last standing happened to be MLSE and the Maple Leafs, now the Marlies, as one by one, the Atlantic Canadian teams embraced the Major Junior model, which most of them are now in, even St. John's tried that for 3 years.

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10-13-2012, 02:37 PM
  #371
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The owners will pad some of their loses during the lockout with an expansion to Québec City and Markham. It is written on the wall.

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10-13-2012, 02:49 PM
  #372
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Yes, but I was only referring to the fact that he said Saskatoon was 3/4 the size of Oshawa; nothing beyond that.
It depends - I think the census metro population for Oshawa is bigger than Saskatoon b/c it would include Whitby and Clarington.

This puts Oshawa at 356,000 and Saskatoon at 260,000.

In any event, Saskatoon would not be an appropriate place for an NHL team...that's for sure. Neither would Halifax for that matter.

The next team should go to Quebec. After that...it depends. I would like to see one in the GTA or at least SW Ontario. I guess it depends what the Leafs (and maybe Buffalo)...b/c otherwise they may end up in an ugly fight over territory rights...I know before MLSE said a team couldn't come here w/o their permission...and the NHL said one could - so it might not be easy if the Leafs kick up a fuss

Why is the lower mainland never mentioned for another team? ... too small to support 2?

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10-13-2012, 03:06 PM
  #373
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Why is the lower mainland never mentioned for another team? ... too small to support 2?
The University of Toronto's Mowat Centre for Research has produced a couple of reports that do indeed state the Lower Mainland could support two teams. Possibly in another 20yrs as growth throughout the Fraser Valley continues, but not now, anytime soon. Vancouver doesnt yet have the corporate weight to support 2 teams, and really, it wasnt that long ago with a weak dollar & underperforming economy that the Canucks were struggling with ticket sales. The Vancouver Giants who play out of the old Pacific Coliseum do extremely well (even better with the Lockout); while the Flames AHL Team the Abbotsford Heat have been playing to about 50-60% capacity (4500 or so per game), struggling somewhat.

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10-13-2012, 03:10 PM
  #374
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It depends - I think the census metro population for Oshawa is bigger than Saskatoon b/c it would include Whitby and Clarington.

This puts Oshawa at 356,000 and Saskatoon at 260,000.

In any event, Saskatoon would not be an appropriate place for an NHL team...that's for sure. Neither would Halifax for that matter.

The next team should go to Quebec. After that...it depends. I would like to see one in the GTA or at least SW Ontario. I guess it depends what the Leafs (and maybe Buffalo)...b/c otherwise they may end up in an ugly fight over territory rights...I know before MLSE said a team couldn't come here w/o their permission...and the NHL said one could - so it might not be easy if the Leafs kick up a fuss

Why is the lower mainland never mentioned for another team? ... too small to support 2?
It could happen. Vancouver has really grown strong recently and have quickly become one of the most important franchises in the hockey world.

Bettman has gone on record saying a team needs three things to survive. Fans, owner and an arena.

Just using the arena as a gauge then these are the suitable rinks in Canada for teams. I'm using Winnipeg's 15000 as the bar.

Bell Centre - 21,273 (Habs)
Saddledome - 19,289 (Flames)
Corel Centre - 19,153 (Senators)
ACC - 18,819 (Leafs)
Rogers Arena - 18,810 (Canucks)
Copps Coliseum (Hamilton) - 17,383
Rexall Place - 16,893 (Oilers)
Pacific Coliseum (Vancouver) - 16,281
CUC (Saskatoon) - 15,195
Colisee Pepsi (Quebec) - 15,127
The MTS Centre - 15,005 (Jets)

So there are 11 NHL sized rinks in Canada. I have no idea on the conditions of Hamilton's or Vancouver's second ones. I do know that Quebec is building anew and that Saskatoon's doesn't have the luxury sweets.

Now, this is ignoring ownership and fans. But barring four+ years to get an arena built, these are the only available options in Canada right now.

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10-13-2012, 03:29 PM
  #375
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No chance in hell Vancouver can support 2 teams, it wasn't that long ago that they weren't supporting one team.

There aren't enough people in BC that can afford hockey tickets. The economy there is weak and it won't support 82 nights of NHL hockey each winter.


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 10-13-2012 at 04:15 PM.
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