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NHL to Expand 2 teams in Canada - THN

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Old
10-16-2012, 12:26 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Several teams share buildings. Bruins/Celtics, Sixers/Flyers, Caps/Bullets, Leafs/Raptors, Devils and Nets did for a long time, then the Devils left, then the Nets followed them to Newark before heading to Brooklyn. Rangers/Knicks, Lakers/Kings/Clippers,Avalanche/Nuggets, Wild/Timberwolves, Stars/Mavericks,
The Wild and the Timberwolves play at different venues. Xcel Engery Center and Target Center


----sorry this has already been posted.----


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10-16-2012, 12:27 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
IF Expansion is indeed seriously being considered, it is so as an offer to the PA,... more jobs.
And that's another aspect that has been brought up, too. It would be a win-win for the league to consider. Bring in a load of money in expansion fees and placate some player opposition to their cuts in the overall pie while seeing the pie increase with roster spots. Especially as I've said many times in the past that Phoenix is likely the only team on the relocation block for the next decade (long story short, Panthers aren't looking to sell, Dallas has past track record of success and will eventually be picked up, New Jersey will be bought in a second on the open market and kept there as their problems are arena debt-related, Isles' local cable deal is huge and even if Wang wants to sell the NHL would want to keep them on Long Island even if in a substandard Barclays, and BJs got a new arena deal), so the oft-mentioned risk of teams still being on the verge of relocating isn't that big, actually.

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10-16-2012, 12:28 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
A second team here wouldn't go over very well. You get some Leafs haters here, but most of them are pretty loyal to another franchise. Outside of that the vast majority of hockey fans are Leafs fans. This isn't a market where a second team would be successful. They'd be the Islanders part 2. There are far too many entire families and generations of families who are Leafs fans (among hockey fans). We've dealt with a losing team for 7 seasons and people aren't jumping ship. Fans here are far to loyal to change allegiance to an expansion team. Their support would be minimal among hardcore hockey fans in the GTA.
I don't doubt a new team in Toronto would be in tough competing against the Leafs. Even here in Ottawa - 200km from Montreal and 400km from Toronto - allegiances run deep even 20 years later. However, I'm sure there are many Leafs fans in Toronto who feel disenfranchised by the team - they can't afford games because they've been priced out of the building, they're unhappy that the richest franchise has the poorest performance, and generally feel as though the team is a failure machine that uses the fans' money as fuel. If a new team can come in and ice a competitive team based on good drafting and smart spending, and keep ticket prices in check, they'd have a shot.

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10-16-2012, 12:32 PM
  #479
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so people are okay with this bribe?

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10-16-2012, 12:33 PM
  #480
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I think it's inevitable that the NHL is back in Quebec City within the next few years, don't know if I agree with expansion though. The talent pool's already diluted enough.

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10-16-2012, 12:34 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by No Fun Shogun View Post
And that's another aspect that has been brought up, too. It would be a win-win for the league to consider. Bring in a load of money in expansion fees and placate some player opposition to their cuts in the overall pie while seeing the pie increase with roster spots. Especially as I've said many times in the past that Phoenix is likely the only team on the relocation block for the next decade (long story short, Panthers aren't looking to sell, Dallas has past track record of success and will eventually be picked up, New Jersey will be bought in a second on the open market and kept there as their problems are arena debt-related, Isles' local cable deal is huge and even if Wang wants to sell the NHL would want to keep them on Long Island even if in a substandard Barclays, and BJs got a new arena deal), so the oft-mentioned risk of teams still being on the verge of relocating isn't that big, actually.
But truly though, hasn't the League been giving off very mixed signals? Or is it this League's odd way of confronting adversity?

We hear record revenues for the past few years, we think things must be OK.
We see certain teams struggling severely economically, but the League holds steadfast trying to keep the economic deadweight in place.
Then we hear the League demanding drastic changes in the CBA because too many losses are being incurred by too many teams. One would think that the League has finally decided that it must sure up its weak fronts and be more economically conservative.
And now we hear that the League might seriously be considering Expansion.

It all seems rather confusing.

And those Expansion Fees aren't any long-term fix.

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10-16-2012, 12:38 PM
  #482
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I don't think two additional Canadian franchises would be a bad thing. The question is whether that's by expansion or relocation.
The league is already watered down, I'd be in favor of this if it was done through re-location. Other than that no thanks. The league is fine with 30 teams. Whats next 32, and then 34? At some point the league is going to get too saturated.

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10-16-2012, 12:47 PM
  #483
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Sure it would. If people could afford tickets to see them, when they can't afford Leafs tickets, the team would do very well. Once they became competitive they would do even better (especially if the Leafs still aren't competitive).




Because there is no other local option.




I disagree. I think they would support both teams.
They definitely wouldn't support a new team. That would be like becoming a Sens or Habs fan for a Leafs fan. It won't happen. Like a poster said above, look at Ottawa as an example of what happens when you put a team near Toronto or Montreal where there are extremely loyal fanbases. Maple Leafs and Canadiens allegiances still to this day compete with or trump the Sens fanbase. Now what would happen if you put a team in the GTA? It wouldn't do very well.

There aren't very many people jumping ship. It can be seen by looking at numbers in attendance, revenue and viewer ratings. The Leafs may be doing poorly, but generations of fans won't become disenfranchised by 7 poor seasons. Unlike some other fanbases most Leafs fans are very loyal and some poor seasons are frustrating, but it won't chase people away.

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10-16-2012, 12:51 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
They definitely wouldn't support a new team. That would be like becoming a Sens or Habs fan for a Leafs fan. It won't happen. Like a poster said above, look at Ottawa as an example of what happens when you put a team near Toronto or Montreal where there are extremely loyal fanbases. Maple Leafs and Canadiens allegiances still to this day compete with or trump the Sens fanbase. Now what would happen if you put a team in the GTA? It wouldn't do very well.
Compete with. Habs/Leafs fans are by far the minority in Ottawa now. 10 years ago, absolutely.

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10-16-2012, 12:52 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
I think it's inevitable that the NHL is back in Quebec City within the next few years, don't know if I agree with expansion though. The talent pool's already diluted enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stats01 View Post
The league is already watered down, I'd be in favor of this if it was done through re-location. Other than that no thanks. The league is fine with 30 teams. Whats next 32, and then 34? At some point the league is going to get too saturated.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks this. Anytime I bring it up people seem to get pissed off.

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10-16-2012, 01:53 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
But truly though, hasn't the League been giving off very mixed signals? Or is it this League's odd way of confronting adversity?

We hear record revenues for the past few years, we think things must be OK.
We see certain teams struggling severely economically, but the League holds steadfast trying to keep the economic deadweight in place.
Then we hear the League demanding drastic changes in the CBA because too many losses are being incurred by too many teams. One would think that the League has finally decided that it must sure up its weak fronts and be more economically conservative.
And now we hear that the League might seriously be considering Expansion.

It all seems rather confusing.

And those Expansion Fees aren't any long-term fix.
We hear mixed signals because the NHL likes talking out both sides of its both, as you said. They like to beat their chests and point to record revenues, profits, viewership, and attendance when convenient, and then cry over the business model they fought over to try to get an even more favorable one. If there wasn't a CBA negotiation going on, I'm sure that Bettman and Co. would be proudly proclaiming how sweet it is to be an owner in the NHL right now.

And while you are right that expansion fees aren't a long-term fix, moving into a couple mid-sized Canadian or northern American markets (such as Quebec City and Seattle) could very well be a long-term answer by creating two more stable teams. Or they might try to make a glitzy splash and go after a market like Houston, assuming they have the wherewithal to actually put together an ownership group down there, and hope to strike gold instead of pyrite.

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10-16-2012, 02:06 PM
  #487
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Just because we haven't had a Stanley Cup champion or any recent success doesn't mean we haven't had a team. And how good do you really think an expansion team would be?

A second team here wouldn't go over very well. You get some Leafs haters here, but most of them are pretty loyal to another franchise. Outside of that the vast majority of hockey fans are Leafs fans. This isn't a market where a second team would be successful. They'd be the Islanders part 2. There are far too many entire families and generations of families who are Leafs fans (among hockey fans). We've dealt with a losing team for 7 seasons and people aren't jumping ship. Fans here are far to loyal to change allegiance to an expansion team. Their support would be minimal among hardcore hockey fans in the GTA.

Maybe Hamilton can support a team, but would the NHL really sink the Buffalo market like that? And would Buffalo and Toronto allow a team in their territory? I doubt it. If (and it's unlikely that it happens) the NHL expands in Canada we'll see teams in Quebec City and Hamilton. There won't be another team in the GTA.
I agree 100% that MLSE. will do anything & everything to stop another NHL. team from takking root in the GTA. & if that means waivving there territory rights to Hamilton for little or no compensation makking way for an NHL. team in Hamilton they will do it . To be honest I think the wheels have been already set in motion for an NHL. team in Hamilton with Global Spectrum & Live Nation Takking over running Copps Coliseum in the spring & MLSE. willingness to keep a 2nd NHL. out of the GTA. I belive Hamilton will have an NHL. team within 5 years along with Quebec City .

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10-16-2012, 02:22 PM
  #488
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Compete with. Habs/Leafs fans are by far the minority in Ottawa now. 10 years ago, absolutely.
Under the age of around 25, you are correct. Older fans (aka those with money) certainly are still dominated by the two O6 clubs.

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10-16-2012, 02:29 PM
  #489
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Under the age of around 25, you are correct. Older fans (aka those with money) certainly are still dominated by the two O6 clubs.
Isn't that the point, though? A Markham-based team would probably have two decades of being a joke that people comment about how only poorer Leafs fans attend, but after that amount of time kids in the area that grow up getting to attend more Markham games than Leafs games might very well grow into fans of the new team from the start, much like how the Sens fans grew their fanbase with people being raised into it. That might especially be the case if the new team pulls an Anaheim and shows up the Leafs by winning a Cup or even just being more successful on the ice.

And heck.... wasn't the same thing said about Vancouver a thousand miles away? That it wasn't until the 80s and 90s and Nucks fans actually outnumbered Leafs and Habs fans in their own barn? Most passionate hockey fans aren't going to split from their team regardless of where they live, but their kids that grow up in the market of a different team very well might.

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10-16-2012, 02:29 PM
  #490
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I agree 100% that MLSE. will do anything & everything to stop another NHL. team from takking root in the GTA. & if that means waivving there territory rights to Hamilton for little or no compensation makking way for an NHL. team in Hamilton they will do it . To be honest I think the wheels have been already set in motion for an NHL. team in Hamilton with Global Spectrum & Live Nation Takking over running Copps Coliseum in the spring & MLSE. willingness to keep a 2nd NHL. out of the GTA. I belive Hamilton will have an NHL. team within 5 years along with Quebec City .
Yeah, but the sale of the team to Rogers/Bell can pave the way. The league can basically say "accept it, or we don't approve the sale."

MLB forced the Astros to change leagues/divisions by making it a condition of the sale.

When your choice are "own the Leafs with another team in the market, or don't own the Leafs at all" it's pretty easy to accept.

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10-16-2012, 02:38 PM
  #491
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Yeah, but the sale of the team to Rogers/Bell can pave the way. The league can basically say "accept it, or we don't approve the sale."

MLB forced the Astros to change leagues/divisions by making it a condition of the sale.

When your choice are "own the Leafs with another team in the market, or don't own the Leafs at all" it's pretty easy to accept.
.... that's actually a very interesting idea that I honestly didn't considered before.... and, as opposed to fans rightfully being ticked at the Astros being forced to change leagues in spite of decades of history in the NL, I doubt that very many folks, even diehard Leafs fans, would mind a second team in their backyard. I didn't believe, as some did, that Rogers/Bell would be more inclined to having a second team in the GTA than MLSE, because why would they? But.... owning a team with some competition in the largest hockey market in the world is still more profitable than not owning a team.

I assume it'd still have to include an indemnity of some kind to the Leafs, though.

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10-16-2012, 02:41 PM
  #492
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so people are okay with this bribe?
Are Canadian hockey fans never happy??

"OMG Canada should have more teams teams!!"

**Article appears stating that Canada is getting more teams**

"OMG Stop trying to bribe us with more teams!!"

Jesus...

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10-16-2012, 02:54 PM
  #493
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Yeah, but the sale of the team to Rogers/Bell can pave the way. The league can basically say "accept it, or we don't approve the sale."

MLB forced the Astros to change leagues/divisions by making it a condition of the sale.

When your choice are "own the Leafs with another team in the market, or don't own the Leafs at all" it's pretty easy to accept.
Yeah they can say that but the problem is that if they say that MLSE. will most likely sue the NHL. & any prospective owner of a TO2 team & we all know the NHL. dose not want to piss off there most valuble team .

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10-16-2012, 03:06 PM
  #494
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.... that's actually a very interesting idea that I honestly didn't considered before.... and, as opposed to fans rightfully being ticked at the Astros being forced to change leagues in spite of decades of history in the NL, I doubt that very many folks, even diehard Leafs fans, would mind a second team in their backyard. I didn't believe, as some did, that Rogers/Bell would be more inclined to having a second team in the GTA than MLSE, because why would they? But.... owning a team with some competition in the largest hockey market in the world is still more profitable than not owning a team.

I assume it'd still have to include an indemnity of some kind to the Leafs, though.
I don't know about that. There's either a plan in place and all wrapped up or there isn't. Assuming the NHL made it a condition of the sale, they either have a number already, or the number is zero:

You can't make permission for HAM/GTA2 part of the deal and then have the negotiations on the territorial rights LATER. Not agreeing to the terms would hold up the addition of the team, so the Leafs could simply say "that's not enough money" and you accomplished nothing. It would be meaningless.

If you're finally holding the hammer over MLSE, why make a gentle tap? Swing that mother.

What choice does Rogers/Bell have? It's either a deal breaker or it's not. You make them sign something waiving their territorial rights for the next X number of years. The other reason there's probably zero dollars in the territory rights is because: Who would they be negotiating with? What super rich business man could have a meeting with the NHL, Rogers and Bell and not make the news?

Either:
A - the NHL picked a number that seems fair and will try to find an owner who is willing to pay it.
B - MLSE had to waive their territorial rights for $0.
C - (Most logical) - the agreed to indemnity is that Rogers/Bell get mobile device media rights to the NEW TEAM as well, just like they are sharing the Leafs rights.
D - There's no deal in place, this is my imagination filling in (pretty good sounding) details on a rumor.


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10-16-2012, 03:12 PM
  #495
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Yeah they can say that but the problem is that if they say that MLSE. will most likely sue the NHL. & any prospective owner of a TO2 team & we all know the NHL. dose not want to piss off there most valuble team .
I don't think that's something you can sue over. The NHL has the right to approve/not approve the sales of franchises.

The argument the Leafs would be making to a court would be anti-competitive arguments.

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10-16-2012, 03:14 PM
  #496
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I assume it'd still have to include an indemnity of some kind to the Leafs, though.
... well thats where it gets really interesting, as Rogers/Bell purchased MLSE in order to obtain "content". How they work that out between themselves remains to be seen. However, the addition of another team (or 2) to the rich Southern Ontario market would present itself as being an extremely attractive opportunity for both of them.

Additionally, the National Broadcasting Rights are up for grabs in a couple of years, the NHL deciding every good boy deserves a favour whereby you sign-off on further objections to territorial rights (within reason) and "we'll look after you". Its then possible the in-coming teams rather than paying huge indemnification fee's could exchange what they'd normally receive in local broadcast fee's, say on a 3-5yr deal with Bell/Rogers, requiring less upfront capital expenditures.

I also dont think this partnership between these two conglomerates is going to last for too too long. In fact, a Marriage Made in Hell. When they separate, and separate they will, a division of the spoils & possible equity positions in a Toronto2 or Hamilton franchise probable.

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10-16-2012, 03:20 PM
  #497
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... well thats where it gets really interesting, as Rogers/Bell purchased MLSE in order to obtain "content". How they work that out between themselves remains to be seen. However, the addition of another team (or 2) to the rich Southern Ontario market would present itself as being an extremely attractive opportunity for both of them.

Additionally, the National Broadcasting Rights are up for grabs in a couple of years, the NHL deciding every good boy deserves a favour whereby you sign-off on further objections to territorial rights (within reason) and "we'll look after you". Its then possible the in-coming teams rather than paying huge indemnification fee's could exchange what they'd normally receive in local broadcast fee's, say on a 3-5yr deal with Bell/Rogers, requiring less upfront capital expenditures.

I also dont think this partnership between these two conglomerates is going to last for too too long. In fact, a Marriage Made in Hell. When they separate, and separate they will, a division of the spoils & possible equity positions in a Toronto2 or Hamilton franchise probable.
That was exactly my take: TOR2 would come about when Rogers/Bell don't get along and both want the other to sell their share.

Since the odds of them solving a split amicably is slim to none (Who's walking away without demanding a ridiculous sum of money that would nearly bankrupt the organization?), the only logical thing would be to have the company keeping the Leafs pay off the NHL/Buffalo and the other side getting an expansion team in TOR for free, and both sides having the mobile media rights to each team.

The smartest thing the NHL could possibly do is make these the terms of the sale of MLSE to Bell/Rogers:
Rogers/Bell waive their right to Hamilton territory, and retain Toronto GTA rights to outside parties, but not TO EACH OTHER.

That gives the NHL the ability to add Quebec and Hamilton right away, and GTA2 and Seattle when the Rogers/Bell marraige gets rocky.

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10-16-2012, 03:26 PM
  #498
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Compete with. Habs/Leafs fans are by far the minority in Ottawa now. 10 years ago, absolutely.
What proof do you have that Leafs and Canadiens fans are starting to become the minority?

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10-16-2012, 03:36 PM
  #499
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That was exactly my take: TOR2 would come about when Rogers/Bell don't get along and both want the other to sell their share...
...ya its hard to say, speculate on & about. Does a second team enter the market before these two start what is certain to become yet more of the same old same old internecine warfare (insuring Leaf mediocrity for another decade) around the Boardroom table at MLSE? Or is a Toronto2 franchise born from the Divorce Agreement that follows? I believe the former happens, as it might take 7-10yrs for these guys to really start throwing the Haymakers at one another, storming out the door, checking into a hotel. But Hamilton, Hamilton might be created from the rubble, Markham entering earlier & first under Roustan & partners in 2015-16. Very possible.

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10-16-2012, 04:02 PM
  #500
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I don't think that's something you can sue over. The NHL has the right to approve/not approve the sales of franchises.

The argument the Leafs would be making to a court would be anti-competitive arguments.
MLSE. argument would be that Markham is well within there teritory & a another NHL. team in the area would hurt just not the Leafs but the Raptors & Marlies as well which MLSE. also owns & dose not want to give up there territory rights to an area so close to where they play . Hamilton on the other hand is just on the outer limits of Leafs teritory & team there would not impact MLSE. & there other intrests & MLSE. will most likely help Hamilton try to land an NHL. team just to keep a team out of Markham & out of the GTA. .

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