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Are there "clutch" players or performances in sports?

View Poll Results: Are there "clutch" players or performances in sports?
Yes 26 68.42%
No 8 21.05%
Undecided 4 10.53%
Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
10-17-2012, 09:27 AM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
Now explain Henderson and Ebs as you called him.
Ebs is very very good.

Henderson was obviously relied on to carry the load late in games.

Not sure what you want me to explain.

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10-17-2012, 09:32 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Claude Lemieux is considered to be an all time "Clutch" playoff performer. He had a few dominant performances, but was he that much better?

Regular Season: 786 Points in 1215 games for .6469 points per game.

Playoffs: 158 Points on 234 games for .6752 points per game.

If we apply his regular season scoring rate to his playoff games played, he would have recorded 151 Points. So for all of his clutchiness, Claude Lemieux scored 7 extra points over his 158 playoff games. Were those 7 clutch points? or were they just regular variance?
Points per game has nothing to do with clutch. A point in a 5-1 game does not mean as much as a point on a overtime goal. So it makes the ppg totally a non issue IMO.

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10-17-2012, 09:33 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Ebs is very very good.

Henderson was obviously relied on to carry the load late in games.

Not sure what you want me to explain.
I just didn't understand why you would leave them out.

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10-17-2012, 09:37 AM
  #79
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More interesting to me is when players are considered at "not clutch"

Ovechkin has long been criticized for his playoff perfomance, but he is 2nd among active players in his goal scoring rate. Third among active players in points per game. He has scored at a higher rate than "clutch" players like Claude Giroux and Joe Sakic.

He is also has a better playoff +/- than he does in the regular season.


"Clutch" is just how we remember a situation.

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10-17-2012, 09:40 AM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
Now explain Henderson and Ebs as you called him.
Eberle did what he does, score goals. As stated previously, he was one of the best players, thus given big minutes, and thus relied on to do what he does and he did not disappoint.

This is getting really circular. People keep bringing up specific scenarios. Those scenarios APPEAR "clutch" because they were important. The problem being, no one has consistently performed better in a measurable way in "big games" compared to "normal games" at a rate that could not be explained away by expected "luck" deviation.

IE: the deviation by which they scored at a higher rate in "big games" was the same as the deviation in some samples of the same size of normal games. ex: player x score 10 points in 4 playoff games. if in the regular season he averaged scoring 1 point per 2 games you might call him clutch. but what if he, on 3 different occasions, scored 10 points in a 4 game span in the regular season? is he still clutch? how do you know he's not just a streaky player? the issue being, this is (not this exact example but you get the idea) true for pretty much every "clutch" player. (not that they are streaky but their "clutch" performances look more like getting lucky or "hot" at the right time.

This "well explain player Y then" doesn't matter. There are no numbers that backup "clutcheness". Does that mean it doesn't exist? IMO yes, it does not exist. Do you have to agree with me? No. But you can't point me to evidence that doesn't exist.

If I were a gm, or businessman of any sort, i wouldn't be handing out contracts to players/employees with a healthy portion of the value derived from unverifiable "eye test" testimonials.

To say "the fact is it doesn't exist" I will admit is incorrect. What i will say is "the fact is there is no or very little evidence to prove it exists".

and if someone does manage to provide an example or two that does legitimately backup Clutchness, just think of how rare it must be for their to only be 2 legitimate examples. In that case, anyone you think is clutch, probably isn't, and its too unreliable of an "asset" to put any worth on.

(clarifications: all "You's" are of the plural sort, not directed at anyone in particular)

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10-17-2012, 09:42 AM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingBogo View Post
The idea of a "clutch" player or performance is part of the mystic and romanticism of sport. An idea that transends everyday stats. For the average fan sport goes beyond the crunching of numbers. They want/need to believe that despite what the stats say their favorite player/team can rise up and provide that "clutch" performance to bring home the glory.
I think this is a good way to put it. I think the average person believes in this far beyond the realm of sport, otherwise no one would watch "underdog" stories.

It's a nice idea if nothing else...

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10-17-2012, 09:48 AM
  #82
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Clutch like luck can't be explained in anyway by stats, so why try? I think we can all agree "love" exists can you explain that with stats? We all can agree "hope" exists can you explain that with stats?


Last edited by TroubaFan1: 10-17-2012 at 10:00 AM.
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10-17-2012, 10:00 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
Points per game has nothing to do with clutch. A point in a 5-1 game does not mean as much as a point on a overtime goal. So it makes the ppg totally a non issue IMO.
Does luck go away in OT? No.

Is every OT goal clutch? No.

Do better players score more in OT? Yes.

Why do better players score more in OT? Because they are better and because the get more ice time.

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10-17-2012, 10:02 AM
  #84
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Oh no.............where is Garrett and his puck luck stats.......... lol
Fehr would be clutch if he didnt have bad puck luck.

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10-17-2012, 10:03 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Does luck go away in OT? No.

Is every OT goal clutch? No.

Do better players score more in OT? Yes.

Why do better players score more in OT? Because they are better and because the get more ice time.
Agreed, but it makes the whole points per game explaination ridiculous. It doesn't matter how many it matters when they happen.

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10-17-2012, 10:03 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
Claude Lemieux is considered to be an all time "Clutch" playoff performer. He had a few dominant performances, but was he that much better?

Regular Season: 786 Points in 1215 games for .6469 points per game.

Playoffs: 158 Points on 234 games for .6752 points per game.

If we apply his regular season scoring rate to his playoff games played, he would have recorded 151 Points. So for all of his clutchiness, Claude Lemieux scored 7 extra points over his 158 playoff games. Were those 7 clutch points? or were they just regular variance?
In my opinion comparing regular season stats to playoff stats is totally useless, as the game changes come playoffs. This happens at every level of sport, when you get into playoffs/elimination games, the intensity level rises. From personal experience, and i don't see why it would be different as Pro ranks, some guys loose the puck under big pressure, some guys put it into the net. Of course overall the NHL is the cream of the crop, but even at that level, some guys are going to do better with pressure than others.

But for you stat guys, what is the answer to this (honestly asking, i don't know), is the overall PPG higher, lower or the same across the league comparing regular season to playoffs?

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10-17-2012, 10:07 AM
  #87
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This discussion is going in circles. Time to drop the ego's and move on. Repeating the same things over and over doesn't make them more believable to those that don't agree. Some things in life can't be explained using rational, scientific data or numbers. Does that mean that they don't exist? No it doesn't.

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10-17-2012, 10:08 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
Clutch like luck can't be explained in anyway by stats, so why try? I think we can all agree "love" exists can you explain that with stats? We all can agree "hope" exists can you explain that with stats?
The point is:

"Clutch" is just how we see and remember something. It is a term that is used to describe success in memorable moments. A moment being big doesn't mean a player actually did something they wouldn't have done in a lower pressure situation.

One person can see a "clutch performance" while a fan on the other side can see an "epic collapse" it is a matter of perception.


If most clutch players score clutch goals at the exact same rate as they score non clutch goals, what is the fuss about?

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10-17-2012, 10:11 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
The point is:

"Clutch" is just how we see and remember something. It is a term that is used to describe success in memorable moments. A moment being big doesn't mean a player actually did something they wouldn't have done in a lower pressure situation.
You just agreed with me by saying the term "lower pressure situations".

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10-17-2012, 10:13 AM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradise View Post
This discussion is going in circles. Time to drop the ego's and move on. Repeating the same things over and over doesn't make them more believable to those that don't agree. Some things in life can't be explained using rational, scientific data or numbers. Does that mean that they don't exist? No it doesn't.
I joined late.

Personally, outside of feelings or matters of perception, I don't think there is anything that can't be reasoned.

Things exist or then don't.

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10-17-2012, 10:15 AM
  #91
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Well since this discussion is coming to a close it seems....

The "clutch" player I would choose is Chris Drury with 17 Playoff GWG and 4 Playoff OTG.

I chose Drury as he has never had over 70 points in the reg season and would be considered a average to good player.

That is my example of clutch

But Truck does make a great point that clutch is something we see and remember in memorable moments. Which is another reason I picked Drury as his goals were critical in the playoffs but not memorable....well to me anyway lol.

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10-17-2012, 10:19 AM
  #92
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One of my best examples of clutch would be Jimmy Craig for the USA in the 1980 miracle on ice.

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10-17-2012, 10:26 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
I joined late.

Personally, outside of feelings or matters of perception, I don't think there is anything that can't be reasoned.

Things exist or then don't.
If you think humans are of such vast intellect that we can understand every situation or event in universal existence, then I have to disagree. We only understand on a minute scale that is judged by our own species. You and I can reason on matters we can fully gather concrete evidence on, but this is one of those area's where I don't think you can find a definite answer to the question being asked. It's beyond numbers and that's just the way some things are.

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10-17-2012, 10:26 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Ziggy66 View Post
Well since this discussion is coming to a close it seems....

The "clutch" player I would choose is Chris Drury with 17 Playoff GWG and 4 Playoff OTG.

I chose Drury as he has never had over 70 points in the reg season and would be considered a average to good player.

That is my example of clutch

But Truck does make a great point that clutch is something we see and remember in memorable moments. Which is another reason I picked Drury as his goals were critical in the playoffs but not memorable....well to me anyway lol.
I hate GWGs.

A GWG can be the 1st goal in a 4-0 shutout, a or the 4th goal in in a 8-3 win.

When a GWG goal can be scored in the 1st period, what does it really say about a player? It just says that they scored a goal. They have no impact on the final score.


I became an Avs fan after we lost our team, so I have much love for Drury.

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10-17-2012, 10:29 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
I hate GWGs.

A GWG can be the 1st goal in a 4-0 shutout, a or the 4th goal in in a 8-3 win.

When a GWG goal can be scored in the 1st period, what does it really say about a player? It just says that they scored a goal. They have no impact on the final score.


I became an Avs fan after we lost our team, so I have much love for Drury.
Thanks for making my point of its not how many points, it when you get them.

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10-17-2012, 10:38 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
I hate GWGs.

A GWG can be the 1st goal in a 4-0 shutout, a or the 4th goal in in a 8-3 win.

When a GWG goal can be scored in the 1st period, what does it really say about a player? It just says that they scored a goal. They have no impact on the final score.


I became an Avs fan after we lost our team, so I have much love for Drury.
that is a very fair assesment and I am way to lazy to go back and to see when his goals came lol

the Overtime ones (playoffs) then in my mind are clutch

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10-17-2012, 10:43 AM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradise View Post
If you think humans are of such vast intellect that we can understand every situation or event in universal existence, then I have to disagree. We only understand on a minute scale that is judged by our own species. You and I can reason on matters we can fully gather concrete evidence on, but this is one of those area's where I don't think you can find a definite answer to the question being asked. It's beyond numbers and that's just the way some things are.
I never said there wasn't a variance in how some people handle pressure.

Some people handle situations better than others, but...


That doesn't mean every time a players scores a big goal that player is "clutch."




Think of Sidney Crosby's golden goal this way:

Did the fact that it was overtime make him shoot more accurately than he is normally able to?

If you say "Yes", that's silly.

If you say "No", then calling him "clutch" is giving him credit for something he does all the time. Shooting and scoring.

In otherwords, clutch = not pissing your pants, crying or getting worse in a big situation.

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10-17-2012, 10:48 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
I never said there wasn't a variance in how some people handle pressure.

Some people handle situations better than others, but...


That doesn't mean every time a players scores a big goal that player is "clutch."


Think of Sidney Crosby's golden goal this way:

Did the fact that it was overtime make him shoot more accurately than he is normally able to?

If you say "Yes", that's silly.

If you say "No", then calling him "clutch" is giving him credit for something he does all the time. Shooting and scoring.

In otherwords, clutch = not pissing your pants, crying or getting worse in a big situation.
If there is such a thing as "pressure" there is such a thing as "clutch" its that simple. Isn't the variance of how people handle pressure makes them either "choke" aka "not clutch" or be "cool" aka "clutch" under that pressure?


Last edited by TroubaFan1: 10-17-2012 at 10:59 AM.
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10-17-2012, 10:55 AM
  #99
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Originally Posted by PostmaFan1 View Post
If there is such a thing as "pressure" there is such a thing as "clutch" its that simple.
So "clutch" is not crapping the bed under pressure, that's fine with me.

I never said clutch doesn't exist.

I just said "clutch" is often a matter or opinion or perception.

I also find it interesting what is and isn't credited as clutch and I don't always agree with the criteria.

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10-17-2012, 10:55 AM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truck View Post
I never said there wasn't a variance in how some people handle pressure.

Some people handle situations better than others

This is exactly my point. Some people handle pressure situations at a higher level than others. Whether that be in business, emergency situations, sports, etc. Those individuals seem to have the ability that allows for time to slow down (or at least it seems to) and are better able to grasp it. It's like being in the "zone", which has been described by many different individuals.


Last edited by Paradise: 10-17-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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