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CBA Negotiations II: This is the song that never ends...

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10-25-2012, 01:16 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
it just seems you dont care about hockey, you want players have all the money and with hockey you could care less if it's gone as long as the players get everything and companies get nothing.
I care very much about the game. But here's a funny thing. In order to have a game, you need players. The fact that there is no NHL right now supports this theory.

The owners could be sitting in their luxury boxes right now. The refs could be on the ice. The zamboni drivers have done their job, the ushers are ready to roll and the concession stands could be fully staffed and ready. But until the players hit the ice, no one is going to pay a cent to watch them all do their jobs, and there is no game.

For the record, I've said numerous times that getting to 50/50 based on the current definition of HRR is an absolute must. There is no way NHL'ers should be getting a bigger slice of the pie than any other major sport. Had the owners not spent like drunken sailors this summer, I may have been more sympathetic to their side of the story. However, if my boss makes a bad personal investment and loses a bunch of money, he's not coming to me to take a pay cut to help prop up his bank account. Nor should he.

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10-25-2012, 01:41 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
LOL.
pot meet kettle. kettle meet pot.
you might be one most blinded by your pro-owners stance more then anyone on this board. and thats saying something with Krishna's anti-NHLPA stance.
people like you would love it if there was no NHLPA, no free agency and the players had to take a take it or leave it contract offer from the owners. Because hey after all its only the players who are being ****ing greedy in all this right? its the players who are the only ones not willing to negotiate right? give me a ****ing break.
My anti-NHLPA stance? I don't think you really pay attention to anything I've said.

I am anti-Fehr. The players pushing out kelly for Fehr was beyond a terrible idea. He was "too nice" with bettman? Gee, I wonder why the NHLPA is in shambles every single time CBA meetings come up. They are supposed to work together. Pushing out people who can work with the other side isn't working together.

The players are the ones refusing to negotiate. Hell, the last few days there's been multiple players and Fehr saying the longer they hold out the better the deal they will get. And the NHL has had 2 things in mind with these meetings. Getting the players share down lower so there's more money for the owners who are hovering at or around breaking even and keeping the cap linked to the revenue. All of the NHLPA's proposals have been unlinked and resulted in them gettting more and more money each year. Really sounds like they are negotiating to me.

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10-25-2012, 01:44 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
My anti-NHLPA stance? I don't think you really pay attention to anything I've said.

I am anti-Fehr. The players pushing out kelly for Fehr was beyond a terrible idea. He was "too nice" with bettman? Gee, I wonder why the NHLPA is in shambles every single time CBA meetings come up. They are supposed to work together. Pushing out people who can work with the other side isn't working together.

The players are the ones refusing to negotiate. Hell, the last few days there's been multiple players and Fehr saying the longer they hold out the better the deal they will get. And the NHL has had 2 things in mind with these meetings. Getting the players share down lower so there's more money for the owners who are hovering at or around breaking even and keeping the cap linked to the revenue. All of the NHLPA's proposals have been unlinked and resulted in them gettting more and more money each year. Really sounds like they are negotiating to me.
Bettman hasn't done a great job "negotiating" either. Neither side has. It's not fair in the least to hold one side accountable.

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10-25-2012, 01:46 PM
  #479
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
The players pushing out kelly for Fehr was beyond a terrible idea. He was "too nice" with bettman? Gee, I wonder why the NHLPA is in shambles every single time CBA meetings come up. They are supposed to work together. Pushing out people who can work with the other side isn't working together.

The players are the ones refusing to negotiate. Hell, the last few days there's been multiple players and Fehr saying the longer they hold out the better the deal they will get. And the NHL has had 2 things in mind with these meetings. Getting the players share down lower so there's more money for the owners who are hovering at or around breaking even and keeping the cap linked to the revenue. All of the NHLPA's proposals have been unlinked and resulted in them gettting more and more money each year. Really sounds like they are negotiating to me.
Why was it wrong / counterproductive for the players to use a hardliner, but acceptable / productive for the NHL to stick with Bettman? There seems something of a double-standard there.

It also seems to me like you're defining "negotiations" with the premise that the discussions must be on the owners terms, aren't you? I haven't seen a great deal of flexibility from the NHL either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Invictus View Post
Bettman hasn't done a great job "negotiating" either. Neither side has. It's not fair in the least to hold one side accountable.
I agree with this.

Seriously, guys. Everyone knows what the final deal is going to look like in the broadest terms. Like LeBrun said. Check your egos and make the obvious deal.

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10-25-2012, 01:57 PM
  #480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
My anti-NHLPA stance? I don't think you really pay attention to anything I've said.

I am anti-Fehr. The players pushing out kelly for Fehr was beyond a terrible idea. He was "too nice" with bettman? Gee, I wonder why the NHLPA is in shambles every single time CBA meetings come up. They are supposed to work together. Pushing out people who can work with the other side isn't working together.

The players are the ones refusing to negotiate. Hell, the last few days there's been multiple players and Fehr saying the longer they hold out the better the deal they will get. And the NHL has had 2 things in mind with these meetings. Getting the players share down lower so there's more money for the owners who are hovering at or around breaking even and keeping the cap linked to the revenue. All of the NHLPA's proposals have been unlinked and resulted in them gettting more and more money each year. Really sounds like they are negotiating to me.
the players wanted a guy representing them who wasnt going to be intimidated give in to the the owners and Bettman easily. Am i a fan of Fehr? no, but hes not going to take any crap from Bettman and the owners either.
The latest offer from the owners was a take it or leave it offer. Why shouldnt the players hold out for the best offer for them? You think they should of signed that initial 43/57 split offer?
Kelly likely would of taken that initial offer which would of screwed the players. That would of made owners like Snider and the Dolans happy because they hate the union. All long with pretty much every other owner.
Both sides have basically drawn a line in the sand waiting for the other side to blink or jump. Its a billion dollar game of chicken.

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10-25-2012, 02:15 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
You might be right--but that's a tricky thing. The player gets a bump a year earlier, but it also makes it more likely the second contract is a lower number.
I see what you mean, but ultimately, that will vary from player to player. I see Stastny as a perfect counter example. His first 3 years in the league he was dynamite. Then he got a 6.6M dollar contract and hasn't produced at the same level since.

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10-25-2012, 02:34 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
the players wanted a guy representing them who wasnt going to be intimidated give in to the the owners and Bettman easily. Am i a fan of Fehr? no, but hes not going to take any crap from Bettman and the owners either.
The latest offer from the owners was a take it or leave it offer. Why shouldnt the players hold out for the best offer for them? You think they should of signed that initial 43/57 split offer?
Kelly likely would of taken that initial offer which would of screwed the players. That would of made owners like Snider and the Dolans happy because they hate the union. All long with pretty much every other owner.
Both sides have basically drawn a line in the sand waiting for the other side to blink or jump. Its a billion dollar game of chicken.
Because you have 2 options:

Option A
- Workout a deal with the NHL based on the framework in their latest proposal.
- Salvage the entire 82 game season.

Option B
- Continue to **** around trying to redefine HRR and give ridiculous counter proposals.
- Lose an entire 82 game season (and an entire years worth of salary.)
- Have to cave to the owners demands anyway. (which will probably be much less generous if the season is lost).
- Ultimately end up losing more money than if you'd chosen to go with option A.

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10-25-2012, 02:42 PM
  #483
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Because you have 2 options:

Option A
- Workout a deal with the NHL based on the framework in their latest proposal.
- Salvage the entire 82 game season.

Option B
- Continue to **** around trying to redefine HRR and give ridiculous counter proposals.
- Lose an entire 82 game season (and an entire years worth of salary.)
- Have to cave to the owners demands anyway. (which will probably be much less generous if the season is lost).
- Ultimately end up losing more money than if you'd chosen to go with option A.
I do agree with your theory in most union environments. However, couldn't the same be said for the ownership group? Work out a deal, save the season, and make some money. OR, continue to fart around, come to an agreement eventually, but ultimately lose a lot of money due to the lost season and more importantly, lost future revenue from casual fans who give up on the league due to this crap.

(For the record, I believe both sides will lose a great deal of money from casual fans who give up on the league, and longer term fans who are fed up with 3 lockouts in relatively recent history).

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10-25-2012, 02:52 PM
  #484
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Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
The NHL will withdraw its latest proposal to the NHLPA once today's deadline comes and goes. Story to be posted shortly.

Not shocking, but we're back to square one.

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10-25-2012, 02:55 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by Flyerfan808 View Post
Because you have 2 options:

Option A
- Workout a deal with the NHL based on the framework in their latest proposal.
- Salvage the entire 82 game season.

Option B
- Continue to **** around trying to redefine HRR and give ridiculous counter proposals.
- Lose an entire 82 game season (and an entire years worth of salary.)
- Have to cave to the owners demands anyway. (which will probably be much less generous if the season is lost).
- Ultimately end up losing more money than if you'd chosen to go with option A.
well like I said earlier, both sides have basically drawn a line in the sand waiting for the other side to blink. Fehr, the NHLPA, Bettman, the owners are thinking that someone will cave eventually.
The owners are ready to pull the latest offer off the table because they think the 82 game schedule is already lost. So if that is indeed the case, the NHLPA will likely do the same and we are back to where we were in the summer. square 1.

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10-25-2012, 02:58 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by McNasty View Post
Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
The NHL will withdraw its latest proposal to the NHLPA once today's deadline comes and goes. Story to be posted shortly.

Not shocking, but we're back to square one.
Fehr and the PA think the deadline can be pushed back a bit if you lose certain things like the all star game

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10-25-2012, 03:25 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
your right, when greed gets to players heads, they dont want to give nothing away especially for the teams that need the money in order to save their franchises, at least they should have some consideration to do that, i would, i would give half my salary to save the nhl because i know hockey is most important to me rather than abusing it for money because i would rather have work than have nothing at all because when money runs out when you have no work/hockey, you would on the street living in a cardboard box or a shelter trying to beg for food stamps.
Why are the players the only greedy side? Look at Ed Snider. He is supposed to be one of the hardliners, but he is one of the owners that benefited the most under the expired CBA. Snider was spending over $68M on salaries in 2003. The salary cap enabled to him to pocket millions of dollars more as he was spending much less on player salaries. Last season was the only year he came close to spending $68M. If it wasn't for the last CBA he'd have a payroll closer to $100M. Meanwhile the Flyers have continually raised ticket prices citing the rise in the salary cap despite the fact that they were actually spending less on salaries. Snider was making more money than ever while the cap artificially reduced player salaries.

Yet that's not enough for him. He is one of the hardliners that want to reduce player salaries even further so he can pocket even more money. Are you going to tell me owners like Snider aren't greedy?

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10-25-2012, 03:55 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by Haute Couturier View Post
Why are the players the only greedy side? Look at Ed Snider. He is supposed to be one of the hardliners, but he is one of the owners that benefited the most under the expired CBA. Snider was spending over $68M on salaries in 2003. The salary cap enabled to him to pocket millions of dollars more as he was spending much less on player salaries. Last season was the only year he came close to spending $68M. If it wasn't for the last CBA he'd have a payroll closer to $100M. Meanwhile the Flyers have continually raised ticket prices citing the rise in the salary cap despite the fact that they were actually spending less on salaries. Snider was making more money than ever while the cap artificially reduced player salaries.

Yet that's not enough for him. He is one of the hardliners that want to reduce player salaries even further so he can pocket even more money. Are you going to tell me owners like Snider aren't greedy?
if you had a family to raise, are you going to quit your job just because they wont give you a raise or decrease your salary? that's selfish and irresponsible because you got to have a job to put food on the table, pay your taxes, your mortgage, car, you cant have everything handed to you like silver platter. you are supposed to work for it.

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10-25-2012, 03:58 PM
  #489
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Just like the players and owners - many of us come down on 1 side or the other - or neither... And, none of us seem like we'll be changing our minds either...

The only winner in all of this is EA sports - selling more copies of NHL 13 (hell, I went out and even bought a playstation 3 and that game, just because I wanna see some hockey)

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10-25-2012, 03:59 PM
  #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
if you had a family to raise, are you going to quit your job just because they wont give you a raise or decrease your salary? that's selfish and irresponsible because you got to have a job to put food on the table, pay your taxes, your mortgage, car, you cant have everything handed to you like silver platter. you are supposed to work for it.
What happens when you are working for it, and your boss suddenly tries to cut your pay by 24%? Do you just accept that blindly?

Also, way to completely ignore his question about Snider and other owners and give an unrelated answer.

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10-25-2012, 04:06 PM
  #491
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Who gives a **** about this crap lots of other hockey to watch besides the circus known as the NHL.

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10-25-2012, 04:17 PM
  #492
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Who gives a **** about this crap lots of other hockey to watch besides the circus known as the NHL.


CHL, AHL, ECHL, College/University, other Minor Pro - lots of hockey around if you really miss the game. And played by non-millionaires for non-billionaires.

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10-25-2012, 04:19 PM
  #493
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I'm really missing the Richmond Renegades right now.

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10-25-2012, 04:24 PM
  #494
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If I was the NHL, I would come out on Monday and state they have cancelled the first 41 games of the season including the Winter Classic, and if no agreement can be made by December 1st, the season is cancelled.

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10-25-2012, 04:28 PM
  #495
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Originally Posted by BleedOrange View Post
If I was the NHL, I would come out on Monday and state they have cancelled the first 41 games of the season including the Winter Classic, and if no agreement can be made by December 1st, the season is cancelled.
Fehr would come out and whine about the NHL setting artificial deadlines

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10-25-2012, 04:34 PM
  #496
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If I was the NHL, I would come out on Monday and state they have cancelled the first 41 games of the season including the Winter Classic, and if no agreement can be made by December 1st, the season is cancelled.
They won't cancel the Winter Classic yet. Outside of the playoffs that's probably their biggest moneymaking event in the regular season.

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10-25-2012, 04:38 PM
  #497
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They won't cancel the Winter Classic yet. Outside of the playoffs that's probably their biggest moneymaking event in the regular season.
Flyers aren't in it this year, so no plans to watch it anyway

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10-25-2012, 04:59 PM
  #498
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Originally Posted by toughfighter83 View Post
if you had a family to raise, are you going to quit your job just because they wont give you a raise or decrease your salary? that's selfish and irresponsible because you got to have a job to put food on the table, pay your taxes, your mortgage, car, you cant have everything handed to you like silver platter. you are supposed to work for it.
Who is the bad guy here? The person who took the livelihood away from their employees just so they can force them to take the pay cut or the employees who are fighting against the pay cut?

The players put their bodies on the line to earn their salary. How do you think a guy like Pronger feels? His health could be forever compromised, but Snider feels he is due a pay cut so he could line his pockets with more money.

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10-25-2012, 05:13 PM
  #499
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Who is the bad guy here? The person who took the livelihood away from their employees just so they can force them to take the pay cut or the employees who are fighting against the pay cut?

The players put their bodies on the line to earn their salary. How do you think a guy like Pronger feels? His health could be forever compromised, but Snider feels he is due a pay cut so he could line his pockets with more money.
There are people in this world suffering far worse than Pronger and they survive on not even a fifth of his salary. I'm sure athletes all over can live just fine on smaller salaries. Just as owners can survive on less as well.

Both sides need a reality check and ease up on their demands.

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10-25-2012, 05:27 PM
  #500
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There are people in this world suffering far worse than Pronger and they survive on not even a fifth of his salary. I'm sure athletes all over can live just fine on smaller salaries. Just as owners can survive on less as well.

Both sides need a reality check and ease up on their demands.
Oh I completely agree. I am going through a rough time myself so I am not saying there should be some mass sympathy for him. The players and their families will be okay unlike what toughfighter83 implied. That said, I think most people are employees and can relate to an employee more than the owners even if our salaries aren't in the same stratosphere. I don't think anyone would be happy with their boss demanding a pay cut when they have been loudly touting their record growths year after year.

There are two sides to this so I simply don't understand how someone like toughfighter83 can say the players are the only greedy side in this.

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