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Tallon won't trade Bjugstad for Luongo

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Old
10-14-2012, 04:17 PM
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Mahotra replaced with Schoeder = $1.5M cap savings
Ballard replaced with Tanev = $3.3M cap savings
Raymond replaced with Jensen = $1.38M cap savings

Total savings: $6.18M
Canucks current cap: $67,768,333
Canucks cap after savings: $61,588,333
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Under this plan, you essentially get worse replacing veterans with rookies by waiving them, creating new holes that will need to be filled making the desperation of acquiring quality players through a Luongo trade even more imperative. Not only that, two of those players replacing NHL regulars will have their ELC's end this coming year, exacerbating your cap problems going into the next year.
Is that going by the rule of half of a waived contract stay on the books? Sorry on my phone and don't have the time to look.

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10-14-2012, 04:18 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Don't forget Jensen.

Also, Kesler is on the LTIR for a while, meaning we have time before having to make cuts anyways.
Kesler will be back before the season starts. If it started when it was supposed to then yes LTIR for him. Unfortunately that will not be the case...probably.

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10-14-2012, 04:19 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Grant Fuhr and Andy Moog.

If someone is unhappy then they can sit, and we'll suspend them for failure to report.

$9M tied up in net isn't as extreme as people make it sound. How much are the Rangers spending on their goalies? How about the Predators? Oilers? Etc.

The Canucks have a lot of players on ELC's ready to step in. I could see Kassian, Tanev, Schroeder and possibly Connauton all stepping in to the lineup THIS season.

I'm not saying a Luongo-Schneider tandem would work for multiple years, but like you suggest it will work long enough for a deal that makes sense to come to fruition.
I think you overrate the Canucks prospects at this point. Those guys aren't all ready to step in, and even the ones that are (Kassian and Tanev) are no more then bottom depth quality right now - and their contracts aren't very helpful to a cap situation as they can be replaced at this stage in their development by depth players making similar cap hits.

ELCs you can lean on are the ones that are top-6/top-4 quality players that can eat up big minutes at cap hits $2-3 mill or more less than veteran counterparts around the league. The Canucks don't have such players.

And I've seen nothing from Gillis to suggest he'd be willing to go with that many rookies on a contending roster... nor anything from AV to suggest he'd play them at all. Suggesting we could see 4 rookies on this roster in full-time roles is just wishful thinking IMO. That isn't how this organization has ever run, and that's especially more so under Gillis and AV.

As far as Fuhr/Moog, how many years (and CBAs) ago did you have to go back to find an example that worked? And a few exceptions doesn't make anything a likely situation. You don't think that unhappy players that have to sit and possibly get suspended doesn't influence the overall chemistry and cohesiveness of a locker room? Do you think this is a situation that Gillis will sit with until he finds the right deal? Didn't we already learn that Gillis isn't one to let such situations fester on the team (not having to go back far to see it happen with Hodgson... and not long before that with Mathieu Schneider).

Realistically, from what we have already seen from Gillis during his tenure here, given the importance he places on overall depth, the lack of willingness to play rookies, the quick moves he's made to get rid of potential locker room problems, and every thing else Gillis' track record shows, do you really think that he's going to sit an unhappy player and possibly suspend them instead of moving them out quickly? Do you think he's going to make up the depth on his roster with unproven rookies on ELCs? Do you think he's going to tie up that much in goal against the cap, when he's been so adamant on trying to get every bit of cap leverage to load his roster with veteran depth?

Given his moves to date, I doubt a Luongo-Schneider tandem will work for much more than a handful of months, and if there is any disruption with the chemistry in that locker room, Gillis is more likely to move that problem out sooner rather than wait for the ideal deal later.

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10-14-2012, 04:21 PM
  #229
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Is it true that trades are not allowed during the lockout?
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
yes... there is no CBA in place. League activities can't happen without the rules governing those activities in place.
Which makes me wonder why are we bothering to have this argument when NOTHING can happen & we don't have an idea when it will change. Not to mention that this info isn't really new news ...it just seems like arguing for the sake of arguing

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10-14-2012, 04:59 PM
  #230
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We wouldn't need Tanev to take on a top-4 spot, simply keep playing the 3rd pairing where he was before. We'd bring up Connauton to replace Ballard and play with Tanev, they've shown great chemistry in the AHL together.

And Jensen is scoring a goal every other game in the SEL. I think he'll be NHL ready by the time the season starts.

Although to be honest if there are no rollbacks there will be teams hit a lot harder than we will.


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10-14-2012, 05:17 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
We wouldn't need Tanev to take on a top-4 spot, simply keep playing the 3rd pairing where he was before. We'd bring up Connauton to replace Ballard and play with Tanev, they've shown great chemistry in the AHL together.

And Jensen is scoring a goal every other game in the SEL. I think he'll be NHL ready by the time the season starts.

Although to be honest if there are no rollbacks there will be teams hit a lot harder than we will.
unfortunately Gillis is not a HF regular and doesn't place as much value in young unproven prospects as fans here seem to.

Have people actually followed Gillis in his tenure in Vancouver? When has he ever given a full-time role to a rookie who hasn't played his way up through call-up seasons and fringe play before getting a regular shot? Connauton hasn't even gotten a call-up in his time with Vancouver yet, and now he's going to get a regular role to replace Ballard with? I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that if Ballard is moved out, it'll be Alberts who's at the top of the line to fill that regular spot - not Connauton, or Sauve or Corrado or whichever prospect seems to be the flavour of the day among Canuck fans.

Tanev is expected to be a 3rd pairing dman though... that after spending 2 years in call-up roles - and excelling in it - before finally (hopefully) seeing his first season as a regular coming up. And again the entire point on the ELC to lean on is missed here - players filling #6 spots in a lineup don't usually make much more than Tanev is already making. By inserting him into the lineup as a #6 dman, he's not giving the club much cap flexibility.

And forget about Jensen at this point. Again, Gillis nor AV has shown anything so far to believe they will throw him into the lineup in a regular role - in fact they've shown just the opposite.

Despite all the clear history of this regime showing how much they value experience and veteran depth, and how little they have trusted rookies to fill any roles, even part-time ones, let alone plug them in regular spots, people still believe that everything will be different moving forward. Do people just not follow what a GM, coach and organization actually do, and base their opinions of the exaggerated abilities of prospects made up on HF boards?

This organization is much more likely to fill their depth roles with guys like Weise, Volpatti, Ebbet, Alberts or Sulzer, then they are of bringing up unproven prospects like Schroeder, Jensen, or Connauton. Until they prove otherwise, given their long track record of doing just that, it's hard to believe that things will suddenly change, under the same GM, coach and ownership group.

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10-14-2012, 05:22 PM
  #232
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I don't see how giving Connauton a role on the third pairing, while allowing Kassian and Jensen bottom-6 roles is unlikely. They have to make the club at some point. He's not going to let them waste away in the minors forever.

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10-14-2012, 05:42 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I don't see how giving Connauton a role on the third pairing, while allowing Kassian and Jensen bottom-6 roles is unlikely. They have to make the club at some point. He's not going to let them waste away in the minors forever.
so if Connauton isn't given a regular role this year, as a 22 YO, he's being wasted? If this club's history with prospect development (especially under Gillis) shows anything, it's that Connauton is much more likely to be a #8/9/10 dman next year with possible call-up duty before he's given a shot at a regular role... and even when he's given a shot, he'll have veteran depth - guys like Alberts - who he'll have to beat out convincingly that the club will risk losing him on waivers to put Connauton, a 22 YO rookie, in a depth role, instead of playing bigger minutes in the minors (where he's ineligible for waivers).

We don't need to look much beyond Tanev to see how this club operates. Tanev proved he was good enough for a regular spot a year ago, and Gillis still went on record saying that he prefers him to develop with #1 minutes in the AHL than take on a bottom pairing role in the NHL... and only after 2 seasons of doing that did he get a chance to start in the NHL (and he hasn't even been handed a regular spot yet). We knew at the start of last season that he was ready for the NHL and would be better options than Rome or Alberts, but the club felt it was more important for him to get big minutes in every situation in the AHL first. Connauton hasn't right now proven half of what Tanev had going into last season.

Jensen is even younger. If the lockout ends this year he's more likely to finish the year in the SEL then coming to Vancouver - where he's still not eligible for the AHL.

Suggesting that such prospects would waste away in the minors because they won't get a full-time spot in the lineup this season is ridiculous. Good organizations don't rush their prospects like that and hand them spots before they've earned them. Just look at Detroit as an example, where they have dmen who are more accomplished than Connauton who haven't been given a regular spot - like Smith, a year older than Connauton who's gotten nothing more than a taste in the NHL (14 games), and most indications are that he's already a better dman at that level than Connauton is. And Smith isn't in a unique situation there... Kindl spent 3 full seasons in the AHL and isn't even a regular yet... Ericsson was 24 before he got his NHL time... that after a couple seasons in the AHL following 3 years in the SEL.

Such players aren't wasted in their development by dominating the AHL first, and playing their way up from call-up duty and earning a regular roster spot. Why would guys like Connauton waste away as 22 YOs in the AHL? by all reports I've seen Connauton isn't even a dominant dman in the AHL yet, and without a single game in the NHL what indication is there that he's ready to be a contributor at the NHL level for a contending team? As I said before, Alberts is likely to provide a bigger impact that this stage. Before Connauton is handed a regular spot he will have to earn it, like every young prospect coming through this organization has had to. Let him first prove he can be a #8/9/10 in this organization before he's given a spot as a regular in the top-6.

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10-14-2012, 05:50 PM
  #234
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The more I think about it the more I think it may make sense to wait a year. What's the rush really? The Canucks dont need to move luongo just yet, theodore last year of contract, more prospects coming of age, markstrom's year. All of these things could make a trade being completed next summer much better for both sides.

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10-14-2012, 05:57 PM
  #235
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Yes, Detroit is special. Almost every other prospect is usually contibuting at around age 22 in some way, it was only our defensive depth that has kept him from contributing. Also, Tanev was undrafted, so it's harder to get a read on him. There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving a 22 year old third pairing duties. Do you expect all of our prospects to not be full-time NHL-ers until they're 24?

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10-14-2012, 06:02 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
so if Connauton isn't given a regular role this year, as a 22 YO, he's being wasted? If this club's history with prospect development (especially under Gillis) shows anything, it's that Connauton is much more likely to be a #8/9/10 dman next year with possible call-up duty before he's given a shot at a regular role... and even when he's given a shot, he'll have veteran depth - guys like Alberts - who he'll have to beat out convincingly that the club will risk losing him on waivers to put Connauton, a 22 YO rookie, in a depth role, instead of playing bigger minutes in the minors (where he's ineligible for waivers).

We don't need to look much beyond Tanev to see how this club operates. Tanev proved he was good enough for a regular spot a year ago, and Gillis still went on record saying that he prefers him to develop with #1 minutes in the AHL than take on a bottom pairing role in the NHL... and only after 2 seasons of doing that did he get a chance to start in the NHL (and he hasn't even been handed a regular spot yet). We knew at the start of last season that he was ready for the NHL and would be better options than Rome or Alberts, but the club felt it was more important for him to get big minutes in every situation in the AHL first. Connauton hasn't right now proven half of what Tanev had going into last season.

Jensen is even younger. If the lockout ends this year he's more likely to finish the year in the SEL then coming to Vancouver - where he's still not eligible for the AHL.

Suggesting that such prospects would waste away in the minors because they won't get a full-time spot in the lineup this season is ridiculous. Good organizations don't rush their prospects like that and hand them spots before they've earned them. Just look at Detroit as an example, where they have dmen who are more accomplished than Connauton who haven't been given a regular spot - like Smith, a year older than Connauton who's gotten nothing more than a taste in the NHL (14 games), and most indications are that he's already a better dman at that level than Connauton is. And Smith isn't in a unique situation there... Kindl spent 3 full seasons in the AHL and isn't even a regular yet... Ericsson was 24 before he got his NHL time... that after a couple seasons in the AHL following 3 years in the SEL.

Such players aren't wasted in their development by dominating the AHL first, and playing their way up from call-up duty and earning a regular roster spot. Why would guys like Connauton waste away as 22 YOs in the AHL? by all reports I've seen Connauton isn't even a dominant dman in the AHL yet, and without a single game in the NHL what indication is there that he's ready to be a contributor at the NHL level for a contending team? As I said before, Alberts is likely to provide a bigger impact that this stage. Before Connauton is handed a regular spot he will have to earn it, like every young prospect coming through this organization has had to. Let him first prove he can be a #8/9/10 in this organization before he's given a spot as a regular in the top-6.
I am not trying to jump in your debate with VKW, but I must say you have the best posts I have seen on HF. Well thought out and logical. If I ever meet you in Vancouver (Live in New West), I will shake your hand and buy you a beer.

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10-14-2012, 06:05 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Yes, Detroit is special. Almost every other prospect is usually contibuting at around age 22 in some way, it was only our defensive depth that has kept him from contributing. Also, Tanev was undrafted, so it's harder to get a read on him. There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving a 22 year old third pairing duties. Do you expect all of our prospects to not be full-time NHL-ers until they're 24?
no, I expect all of our prospects to prove they belong in the NHL before they're given a spot in the NHL.

Connauton hasn't looked close to NHL ready in his time in the AHL so far, and hasn't been given a single call-up.

Tell me, what indication has this organization ever given that they will hand regular roles to prospects who have proven what Connauton has to this date? Let's talk about this in reality - this club has given plenty of reasons to believe they will develop their prospects slowly and not give them regular icetime until they have first proven it with call-up duty and accomplished play in the minors first. What reasons have we seen since Gillis came on board in 08 that he's a GM that gives unproven prospects regular roles? What indication has AV given that he will play such prospects in regular roles? EVERYTHING we know tells us differently, and yet people still make assumptions that things will be different. Follow the team, the management, the coach... it's not hard to see where their tendencies lie.

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10-14-2012, 06:06 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Yes, Detroit is special. Almost every other prospect is usually contibuting at around age 22 in some way, it was only our defensive depth that has kept him from contributing. Also, Tanev was undrafted, so it's harder to get a read on him. There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving a 22 year old third pairing duties. Do you expect all of our prospects to not be full-time NHL-ers until they're 24?
Just to interject here, I think the point he is making is Gillis and AV have never given any hint of rushing or bringing up a rookie with no NHL experience in a full-time role. Which he is right. Age and Skill have nothing to do with it realistically. It is a organizational preference to bring in rookies in whatever facet they feel fit. Vancouver's is slowly and gradually, so the expectation to play 3 rookies with no experience in the NHL is a far fetched idea.

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10-14-2012, 06:06 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
The problem is, Chicago needed cap space. We don't.

The problem is, Luongo is better than Campbell.

The problem is, Luongo plays a more important position than Campbell.

The problem is, Luongo's cap hit is almost 2 mil cheaper than Campbell.

Of course, these are only problems for teams that think they can get our star player for scraps. Until they realize they can't, Luongo will remain a Canuck.
Chicago needed the Cap Space as much as the Nucks need it now
the teams that need a 1st line PMD > Teams that need a #1 goalie
This is just your opinion. Campbell will play 82 games, Luongo 55
Luongos contract ends 2022, Campbells 2016

Luongo does not come out of a vezina nominee season, he now comes of a season where he lost his starting spot and now wants to be traded to not sit behind Schneider on the bench cause he is too good to be just the Backup.



Every Team declines to give VAN what they are asking for... In the end I see a trade like Campbells or Gigueres as more realistic than what your GM is asking for and what most of you fans want

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10-14-2012, 06:08 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by NFITO View Post
This organization is much more likely to fill their depth roles with guys like Weise, Volpatti, Ebbet, Alberts or Sulzer, then they are of bringing up unproven prospects like Schroeder, Jensen, or Connauton. Until they prove otherwise, given their long track record of doing just that, it's hard to believe that things will suddenly change, under the same GM, coach and ownership group.
God I don't even want to think about what it would cost to get him back from Buffalo.

Agree with all your other points though

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10-14-2012, 06:15 PM
  #241
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God I don't even want to think about what it would cost to get him back from Buffalo.

Agree with all your other points though
I didn't mean Sulzer specifically, I meant players like Sulzer - fringe players with NHL experience to fill depth roles have always been given priority with this organization over shinny prospects with no experience. Even to fill 4th line and 7th dman roles. I'd be shocked if we didn't add another such player or two before the season started... guys that have been waived or let go by their teams, or haven't received contracts yet, but have some NHL experience. Gillis will let his prospects develop in the AHL and fill his depth roles with experience as he always has.

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10-14-2012, 06:28 PM
  #242
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I didn't mean Sulzer specifically, I meant players like Sulzer - fringe players with NHL experience to fill depth roles have always been given priority with this organization over shinny prospects with no experience. Even to fill 4th line and 7th dman roles. I'd be shocked if we didn't add another such player or two before the season started... guys that have been waived or let go by their teams, or haven't received contracts yet, but have some NHL experience. Gillis will let his prospects develop in the AHL and fill his depth roles with experience as he always has.
Ah then I agree with everything you say. (I was confused because of the multiple meanings of "like": "similar to" and "such as").

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10-14-2012, 06:38 PM
  #243
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Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Hansen
Higgins-Schroeder-Kassian
Volpatti-Lapierre-Weise

Hamhuis-Bieksa
Edler-Garrison
Connauton-Tanev

Luongo
Schneider

Team is below $59M.

Where is Raymond and his 2.2mill

LW
1 Sedin 6.1
2 Burrpws 2
3 Hanson 1.35
4 Lap 1
C
1 Sedin 6.1
2 Kesler 5
3 Kassian 0.87
4 Schroder 1.025
rw
1 Booth 4.25
2 Raymond 2.275
3 Higgens 1.9
4 wiese 0.615
d
1 Bieska 4.6
2 Garrrisons 4.6
3 Ham 4.5
4 Elder 3.25
5 Tanev 0.9
6 Conn 0.9
g
1 Luongo 5.33
2 Schediner 4
60.565

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10-14-2012, 07:17 PM
  #244
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We said we'd waive icneccessary over trading Luongo.

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10-14-2012, 07:25 PM
  #245
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no, I expect all of our prospects to prove they belong in the NHL before they're given a spot in the NHL.

Connauton hasn't looked close to NHL ready in his time in the AHL so far, and hasn't been given a single call-up.

Tell me, what indication has this organization ever given that they will hand regular roles to prospects who have proven what Connauton has to this date? Let's talk about this in reality - this club has given plenty of reasons to believe they will develop their prospects slowly and not give them regular icetime until they have first proven it with call-up duty and accomplished play in the minors first. What reasons have we seen since Gillis came on board in 08 that he's a GM that gives unproven prospects regular roles? What indication has AV given that he will play such prospects in regular roles? EVERYTHING we know tells us differently, and yet people still make assumptions that things will be different. Follow the team, the management, the coach... it's not hard to see where their tendencies lie.

Gillis' first ever draft pick, Hodgson, was in the NHL at 21 after a decent but not great stint in the NHL. His next first rounder, Schroeder, is probably going to be in the NHL next year, and hasn't had any prior experience. I'm not sure where you get this idea that Gillis likes keeping players in the AHL until they are tearing it up, when none of our prospects with Gillis have ever done that.

Although slightly OT, but Connauton has looked great in his first game this season.

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10-14-2012, 07:30 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
The problem is, Chicago needed cap space. We don't.

The problem is, Luongo is better than Campbell.

The problem is, Luongo plays a more important position than Campbell.

The problem is, Luongo's cap hit is almost 2 mil cheaper than Campbell.

Of course, these are only problems for teams that think they can get our star player for scraps. Until they realize they can't, Luongo will remain a Canuck.
You left out the little fact Luongo's deal is 7 years longer than Campbell's.

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10-14-2012, 07:38 PM
  #247
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You left out the little fact Luongo's deal is 7 years longer than Campbell's.
And? Until we see the new CBA we don't know if that's a factor or not. It's about as rational as me saying Edler has a lot of value right now because they'll probably raise UFA age. Until the CBA actually comes into effect, you can't change a player's value a player based on what may be included in the CBA.

As per the last CBA, Luongo's contract can be buried in the minors at whim. If you want to wait until the new CBA comes into effect, fine, but until then contract length isn't a problem for rich teams.

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10-14-2012, 07:40 PM
  #248
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
And? Until we see the new CBA we don't know if that's a factor or not. It's about as rational as me saying Edler has a lot of value right now because they'll probably raise UFA age. Until the CBA actually comes into effect, you can't change a player's value a player based on what may be included in the CBA.

As per the last CBA, Luongo's contract can be buried in the minors at whim. If you want to wait until the new CBA comes into effect, fine, but until then contract length isn't a problem for rich teams.
You didn't even mention the 7 years, but trust me, GMs do take that into serious consideration.

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10-14-2012, 07:44 PM
  #249
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Gillis' first ever draft pick, Hodgson, was in the NHL at 21 after a decent but not great stint in the NHL. His next first rounder, Schroeder, is probably going to be in the NHL next year, and hasn't had any prior experience. I'm not sure where you get this idea that Gillis likes keeping players in the AHL until they are tearing it up, when none of our prospects with Gillis have ever done that.

Although slightly OT, but Connauton has looked great in his first game this season.
Hodgson had call-up time before he got a roster spot. And he had a much bigger impact at the AHL level before he got that call-up over Connauton. The Moose coach did call him his best forward during the season he had him.

Schroeder hasn't made the NHL yet. You're basing your assumptions on things that haven't happened that you're assuming will. You don't see the problem with that line of thinking?

Gillis had prospects in the system before he made his 1st ever draft pick. We've also seen prospects come through this system - like Hodgson as you mentioned, who was an impact forward in the AHL before he got call-up duty and had to prove himself with that call-up duty before a spot was given to him. Tanev is another example mentioned. Grabner is another. Schneider's development we all know well. We also saw how they handled Shirokov - a prospect with a successful resume outside the NHL, but was never handed a spot and had to prove his worth first.

So was there really any prospect - not possibles that may one day be given that spot in the future like Schroeder - who have been handed a spot going into their first experience in the NHL before first proving their worth through call-ups?

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10-14-2012, 07:54 PM
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I don't see how giving Connauton a role on the third pairing, while allowing Kassian and Jensen bottom-6 roles is unlikely. They have to make the club at some point. He's not going to let them waste away in the minors forever.
Apparently it makes more sense to keep overpaid depth players while giving away a Vezina calibre goaltender, than to give our prospects an opportunity.

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