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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Toronto Maple Leafs in 93

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Old
10-17-2012, 05:08 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yeah, I should of phrased that differently like Odelein was a fighter and a player, Rouse was a player that could fight.
... thats a good way to put it. Odelein I think was more intimidating though, rangy lad from Quill Lake Saskatchewan. Sort of proto-typical WHL product of the era. Had the rep and fists to back it up but none the less a decent player. Tough, physical, wouldnt back down. Peaked in the early 90's, maybe 93-94 his best season. Curiously still hasnt "officially announced his retirement" last time I checked.

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10-17-2012, 06:41 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by LEAFS FAN 4 EVER View Post
My Accounting teacher in College told me the same thing. He also thought because it was also Bettman's 1st year as NHL Commissioner that the NHL wanted an American team in the Stanley Cup and they were lucky how Los Angeles advanced to the Conference Finals because what better team to have playing.

Personally I find that conspiracy theory hard to believe, however some evidence is there when you look at the penalty Kerry Fraser called on Glen Anderson after the Leafs tied Game 6 and the non call on Gretzky in overtime.
Wow I'd have asked for my tuition refunded getting education from a professor like that. That said if the Leafs could've beat the Kings, they would have won Game 7. I could see there being some outrage if say there had been a non-call on the OT winner in Game 7.

Honestly, Potvin was not in Patrick Roy's territory. I think that the Habs would've swept the Leafs as they didn't have a Gretzky-type to keep them in the game against a strong Habs team.

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10-17-2012, 10:07 PM
  #78
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Honestly, Potvin was not in Patrick Roy's territory. I think that the Habs would've swept the Leafs as they didn't have a Gretzky-type to keep them in the game against a strong Habs team.
At that moment in time Doug Gilmour was at a level of impact on hockey games equal to a Gretzky-type in his own way.

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10-17-2012, 10:26 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
At that moment in time Doug Gilmour was at a level of impact on hockey games equal to a Gretzky-type in his own way.
Only for the 93 version of Gretzky. Gilmour doesn't match up for anything Gretzky did prior to that.

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Old
10-18-2012, 07:20 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Shootmaster_44 View Post
Honestly, Potvin was not in Patrick Roy's territory. I think that the Habs would've swept the Leafs as they didn't have a Gretzky-type to keep them in the game against a strong Habs team.
I think it would have played out similar to the Habs/Kings series: Habs probably drop game 1 due to being flat (they had beaten the Isles in 5 and were off for about a week), then make game 2 adjustments and win that game. By game 3 the Leafs start to run low on gas after their 3 7-game series, and the Habs fresher legs take over.

Habs end up winning in 5, just as they did against the Kings.

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:12 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Only for the 93 version of Gretzky. Gilmour doesn't match up for anything Gretzky did prior to that.
Well if we want to get into specifics: '93 Gilmour was handily outplaying the '93 version of Gretzky.

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10-18-2012, 09:40 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Well if we want to get into specifics: '93 Gilmour was handily outplaying the '93 version of Gretzky.
That's a questionable assertion if I've ever heard one.

If Gilmour was outplaying Gretzky, he certainly wasn't doing it handily.

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Old
10-18-2012, 09:45 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Master_Of_Districts View Post
That's a questionable assertion if I've ever heard one.

If Gilmour was outplaying Gretzky, he certainly wasn't doing it handily.
Head to head that series:

PlayerGPGAPts+/-
Gretzky75510-3
Gilmour74913+6

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Old
10-18-2012, 01:11 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Head to head that series:

PlayerGPGAPts+/-
Gretzky75510-3
Gilmour74913+6
Yeah, Gilmour was on another planet that year. There's no denying that and I hate to admit it but if Toronto had of made the finals, it would of been a dog fight between him and Roy for the Conn. Even if the Leafs lost.

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Old
10-18-2012, 08:05 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorse686 View Post
I recently head of a conspiracy theory that states that the Kings-Leafs series was fixed so LA would go to the final. Something about helping increase hockey's popularity in the US (you'd have the game's marquee star in the Stanley Cup finals on an American team, or something like that). Has anyone else heard of such a thing?
There isn't much of a backup to that. It is what it is; just a theory. I've also head that the 3 worst calls in recent playoff history; this one, the Brett Hull goal, and the uncounted Flames finals goal in 2004 were all a southern team screwing a northern team. But I'd think if the NHL were fixing a series, there'd be more than 1 or 2 seriously questionable calls.

Sorry to say I don't buy the 'motivation' theory. The stanley cup is up for grabs, what more motivation is required? The leafs had more players after their first cup win than the habs.

Goaltending favoured the Habs, Roy was unreal and while Potvin had his moments, but the detroit series he got lit up in all 3 losses (18 goals in 8 periods), lost a 5-1 game to the Blues and gave up 10 goals in the last 2 games to the kings. So the fact is that teams did figure out how to beat him while Roy was solid all the way though.


Now I do disagree with the notion that since Carbo contained Gretzky, he would have done the same to Gilmour. As great as gretzky was he was no grit and little defense. Gilmour won the selke that year and had a lot of sandpaper in his game, he could have been effective without scoring. Despite dominating the last game, Gretzky was outplayed by Gilmour that series, remember even heading into that game 7, the big question was "whats wrong with Gretzky".


Those would have been the 2 biggest factors; could Potvin have gone save for save with Roy and who wins the Gilmour/Carbo matchup?

It's not as simple as projecting what did happen between the Kings and habs vs what would have happened with Toronto; no McSorely stick incident in Toronto. Also coaching was a pretty big disparity in the finals that year, demers seemed to have all the right moves that playoffs... the kings had Barry Melrose. Not sure if coaching won the series but given that 3 of the habs wins were in OT, could have played a factor with 2 of them in LA when Melrose had the second change. Burns at least would have played the matchup game better than Melrose could.

we'll never know but I'd be included to go with the Habs. Leafs would have run out of gas having played all those games.

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Old
10-19-2012, 09:55 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by leeaf83 View Post
There isn't much of a backup to that. It is what it is; just a theory. I've also head that the 3 worst calls in recent playoff history; this one, the Brett Hull goal, and the uncounted Flames finals goal in 2004 were all a southern team screwing a northern team. But I'd think if the NHL were fixing a series, there'd be more than 1 or 2 seriously questionable calls.

Sorry to say I don't buy the 'motivation' theory. The stanley cup is up for grabs, what more motivation is required? The leafs had more players after their first cup win than the habs.

Goaltending favoured the Habs, Roy was unreal and while Potvin had his moments, but the detroit series he got lit up in all 3 losses (18 goals in 8 periods), lost a 5-1 game to the Blues and gave up 10 goals in the last 2 games to the kings. So the fact is that teams did figure out how to beat him while Roy was solid all the way though.


Now I do disagree with the notion that since Carbo contained Gretzky, he would have done the same to Gilmour. As great as gretzky was he was no grit and little defense. Gilmour won the selke that year and had a lot of sandpaper in his game, he could have been effective without scoring. Despite dominating the last game, Gretzky was outplayed by Gilmour that series, remember even heading into that game 7, the big question was "whats wrong with Gretzky".


Those would have been the 2 biggest factors; could Potvin have gone save for save with Roy and who wins the Gilmour/Carbo matchup?

It's not as simple as projecting what did happen between the Kings and habs vs what would have happened with Toronto; no McSorely stick incident in Toronto. Also coaching was a pretty big disparity in the finals that year, demers seemed to have all the right moves that playoffs... the kings had Barry Melrose. Not sure if coaching won the series but given that 3 of the habs wins were in OT, could have played a factor with 2 of them in LA when Melrose had the second change. Burns at least would have played the matchup game better than Melrose could.

we'll never know but I'd be included to go with the Habs. Leafs would have run out of gas having played all those games.
Dont forget the Pronger suspensions and the Weber fine and you have more evidence of the southern conspiracy.

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Old
10-19-2012, 10:43 AM
  #87
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Leafs dont win the cup if they play the habs. Roy was too nice

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Old
10-20-2012, 03:56 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Head to head that series:

PlayerGPGAPts+/-
Gretzky75510-3
Gilmour74913+6
Wow! How decisive!

In any event, you didn't say the series - you said 93'.

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10-20-2012, 09:50 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Master_Of_Districts View Post
Wow! How decisive!
Yes, quite.

Quote:
In any event, you didn't say the series - you said 93'.
Yes, and even in that I am still correct.. Gretzky missed half the season in '93 and, even if you want to look at a per game pace for offense, Gilmour was outproducing him while recording a Selke winning season.

1993 Gilmour reached a level of play that very few players have matched.

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Old
10-20-2012, 11:30 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yes, quite.



Yes, and even in that I am still correct.. Gretzky missed half the season in '93 and, even if you want to look at a per game pace for offense, Gilmour was outproducing him while recording a Selke winning season.

1993 Gilmour reached a level of play that very few players have matched.
One of those players was a guy from Brantford named Wayne

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10-20-2012, 12:27 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Yes, quite.



Yes, and even in that I am still correct.. Gretzky missed half the season in '93 and, even if you want to look at a per game pace for offense, Gilmour was outproducing him while recording a Selke winning season.

1993 Gilmour reached a level of play that very few players have matched.
..and at the end of the LA/TOR series the line was...

Gilmour 21GP 35P
Gretzky 20GP 33P

Then, when you factor in their respective play without the puck...

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10-20-2012, 12:55 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by darkhorse686 View Post
I recently head of a conspiracy theory that states that the Kings-Leafs series was fixed so LA would go to the final. Something about helping increase hockey's popularity in the US (you'd have the game's marquee star in the Stanley Cup finals on an American team, or something like that). Has anyone else heard of such a thing?
One would have to be a communist to really believe that the league had something to do with that.

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10-21-2012, 06:05 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
One would have to be a communist to really believe that the league had something to do with that.
I'm a leaf fan but the extent of the conspiracy that I'd believe is that the call wasn't made simply because they can't toss Gretzky. If the league was out there to fix it for the Kings, they cut it awfully close; letting it get right to overtime while facing elimination.

It's too bad what happened but the only stanley cup winners within 10 years of that happening that the 93 leafs possibly could have beaten were the 86 habs, 90 oilers, MAYBE the 93 habs, and the 95 devils. And as mentioned you're also accounting for the 20-21 games the leafs already played.

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10-21-2012, 06:34 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by leeaf83 View Post
I'm a leaf fan but the extent of the conspiracy that I'd believe is that the call wasn't made simply because they can't toss Gretzky. If the league was out there to fix it for the Kings, they cut it awfully close; letting it get right to overtime while facing elimination.

It's too bad what happened but the only stanley cup winners within 10 years of that happening that the 93 leafs possibly could have beaten were the 86 habs, 90 oilers, MAYBE the 93 habs, and the 95 devils. And as mentioned you're also accounting for the 20-21 games the leafs already played.
The Leafs lose their so-called big advantage against the 86 Habs -- D-Men depth.

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10-22-2012, 09:53 AM
  #95
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One of those players was a guy from Brantford named Wayne
Absolutely.

However, 1993 Gilmour was outplaying 1993 Gretzky at least in my opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
..and at the end of the LA/TOR series the line was...

Gilmour 21GP 35P
Gretzky 20GP 33P

Then, when you factor in their respective play without the puck...
Right. Not to mention throwing his ever shrinking frame at everything that moved.

Gilmour was playing at an insane level in 1993.

I rank that full season & playoffs among the best I have ever witnessed by a hockey player.

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10-22-2012, 10:17 AM
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Absolutely.

However, 1993 Gilmour was outplaying 1993 Gretzky at least in my opinion.




Right. Not to mention throwing his ever shrinking frame at everything that moved.

Gilmour was playing at an insane level in 1993.

I rank that full season & playoffs among the best I have ever witnessed by a hockey player.
Nobody doubts Gretzky's ability to produce offense. But that year, Gilmore was literally doing every last thing a hockey player could do on the ice beyond playing goal.

If the leafs found a way to win game 6 (or dare I say it the gretzky high stick get called), Gretzkys stats end at 5 points in 6 games. Not invisible but he had been contained.

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10-23-2012, 02:17 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by leeaf83 View Post
I'm a leaf fan but the extent of the conspiracy that I'd believe is that the call wasn't made simply because they can't toss Gretzky. If the league was out there to fix it for the Kings, they cut it awfully close; letting it get right to overtime while facing elimination.

It's too bad what happened but the only stanley cup winners within 10 years of that happening that the 93 leafs possibly could have beaten were the 86 habs, 90 oilers, MAYBE the 93 habs, and the 95 devils. And as mentioned you're also accounting for the 20-21 games the leafs already played.
Hmm, not so sure about the Oilers. That would involve 93 Gilmour running into one of the few guys who combined offense/defense/nastiness/leadership better: prime Messier.

Im also not convinced Gilmour fairs better against Carbonneau than 99. Yes, Gilmour was grittier than Gretz but this is Carbonneau we're talking about. Guy did more face-washing than possibly anyone else ever. His eyes would have lit up at the possiblity of goading an offensive star into an alley brawl.

And this is coming from a big, big Gilmour fan who considers his 1993 season to be in Clarke/Messier territory.

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10-25-2012, 06:53 PM
  #98
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Well if we want to get into specifics: '93 Gilmour was handily outplaying the '93 version of Gretzky.
"Handily" outlplaying Gretzky? I'm sorry, but Gretzky had arguably the best playoffs in history that year when you consider the team he was playing for, scoring a ridiculous 40 points without near the supporting cast of his 80s Oilers or Lemieux's 90s Penguins -- which are the only other teams where anyone has scored 40 points in the playoffs....EVER.

Even if you look at just the LA/Toronto series, I would still argue that Gretzky outplayed Gilmour. Did Gilmour score the OT winner in game 6? No. Did Gilmour score a hat trick and 4 points in game 7, including the game winner? No. Did Gilmour score 4 (and assist on another) of his team's final 6 goals of the series to take his team to the Stanley Cup finals? No. Who would you rather have -- the guy who played out of his mind during the first 5 games of the series, or the guy who played out of this universe in the final two games when it counted the most? I think the answer should be pretty clear.

Top single season playoff point seasons of all time:

1. Wayne Gretzky* 47 1985
2. Mario Lemieux* 44 1991
3. Wayne Gretzky* 43 1988
4. Wayne Gretzky* 40 1993
5. Wayne Gretzky* 38 1983
6. Paul Coffey* 37 1985
7. Evgeni Malkin 36 2009
8. Doug Gilmour* 35 1993

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10-25-2012, 10:22 PM
  #99
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"Handily" outlplaying Gretzky?
Yes.

How did a thread mentioned Gretzky fly under your radar for so long???

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10-26-2012, 02:23 PM
  #100
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Yes.

How did a thread mentioned Gretzky fly under your radar for so long???
You couldn't resist, could you? I love it how the posting too much about Gretzky is bad, but posting about others who post too much about Gretzky is somehow ok.

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