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Hasek vs Roy in the 2002 Western Conference Finals

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10-16-2012, 01:31 PM
  #1
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Hasek vs Roy in the 2002 Western Conference Finals

MOD NOTE: The 2002 playoffs have become a long tangent in the Goaltenders Project, so I moved the relevant posts to their own thread, so everyone who wants to can continue discussing them in detail. -TDMM

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
For this type of this discussion, I'm not sure it matters where a goaltender's goal-support is coming from - just that they have it, and that its existence lowers the win-threshold.
I think it matters when people try to paint the Sabres offense as a consistent, productive unit, on par with the Stars of that era, when this just wasn't the case.

And if we're comparing, Hasek to Kolzig and especially Belfour, why doesn't Hasek get more credit for beating Roy in 2002, especially considering he shut out the Avs in a critical game six, in a series marred by Patrick's gaffes?

The lack of a consistent standard among Roy fans is astonishing.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 10-16-2012 at 06:41 PM.
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10-16-2012, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
And if we're comparing, Hasek to Kolzig and especially Belfour, why doesn't Hasek get more credit for beating Roy in 2002, especially considering he shut out the Avs in a critical game six, in a series marred by Patrick's gaffes?

The lack of a consistent standard among Roy fans is astonishing.
Because Patrick Roy had a great series outside of two games.

Roy: 25/30; .833
Hasek: 24/27; .889


Roy: 30/33; .909
Hasek: 22/26; .846


Roy: 40/42; .952
Hasek: 20/21; .952


Roy: 31/33; .939
Hasek: 19/22; .864

Roy: 26/27; .963
Hasek: 27/29; .931


Roy: 26/28; .929
Hasek: 24/24; 1.000

Roy: 10/16; .625
Hasek: 19/19; 1.000

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10-16-2012, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
I think it matters when people try to paint the Sabres offense as a consistent, productive unit, on par with the Stars of that era, when this just wasn't the case.
Dude!!!
The Sabres provided more offense to Hasek(2.81) that year than the Stars provided Belfour(2.78)! Not to mention that Brodeur received even less than either of them to win the Cup the following year in '00 (2.65GpG).
What part of that do you not understand?

And that the Habs only provided Roy with almost exactly the same goal support(2.80) in 1986 when scoring was a whopping 51% higher (5.27GpG in '99, 7.94GpG in '86).


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10-16-2012, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
And if we're comparing, Hasek to Kolzig and especially Belfour, why doesn't Hasek get more credit for beating Roy in 2002, especially considering he shut out the Avs in a critical game six, in a series marred by Patrick's gaffes?
Gaffes (plural)?

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10-16-2012, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Dude!!!
The Sabres provided more offense to Hasek that year than the Stars provided Belfour!
What part of that do you not understand?
This means what exaclty, given three separate opponents, especially because the thing driving Buffalo's offense was *heavily* matchup dependent.

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10-16-2012, 01:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Gaffes (plural)?
Maybe the McCarty hat trick goal wasn't the prettiest thing to let in during Game 1.


(on a side note, I saw the Stanley Cup at a Detroit mall that day )

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10-16-2012, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Gaffes (plural)?
Statue of Liberty/game 7?

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10-16-2012, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Statue of Liberty/game 7?
If a bad game is a "gaffe", then all of a sudden this discussion becomes a lot more interesting.

Do we really need this sort of rhetoric in what's supposed to be a serious discussion?

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10-16-2012, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
This means what exaclty, given three separate opponents, especially because the thing driving Buffalo's offense was *heavily* matchup dependent.
You can't have it both ways!
You can't keep crying that Hasek didn't get support and then argue that when other goalies didn't get support and won anyways that it doesn't matter or downplay it for them.

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10-16-2012, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
If a bad game is a "gaffe", then all of a sudden this discussion becomes a lot more interesting.

Do we really need this sort of rhetoric in what's supposed to be a serious discussion?
It's not just a bad game. It's the "most clutch goaltender ever" literally giving away the opening goal in game six, then following that up with one of the worst playoff performances in his career.

Considering the amount of lionizing of Roy's cutthroat nature, will to win, and playoff excellence going on in this thread, how can getting his doors blown off against his club's biggest rival in a game 7 not be considered a gaffe at some level, especially considering the relative weakness of each of the first three goals of that game?

And how exactly is that not a part of a serious discussion?

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10-16-2012, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
It's not just a bad game. It's the "most clutch goaltender ever" literally giving away the opening goal in game six, then following that up with one of the worst playoff performances in his career.

Considering the amount of lionizing of Roy's cutthroat nature, will to win, and playoff excellence going on in this thread, how can getting his doors blown off against his club's biggest rival in a game 7 not be considered a gaffe at some level, especially considering the relative weakness of each of the first three goals of that game?

And how exactly is that not a part of a serious discussion?
It's rhetoric. You're free to offer it, but it doesn't do much to advance the discussion.

Roy had a bad game in a big moment. It's not a gaffe, and it's not something that other top goaltenders haven't done.

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10-16-2012, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
It's not just a bad game. It's the "most clutch goaltender ever" literally giving away the opening goal in game six, then following that up with one of the worst playoff performances in his career.

Considering the amount of lionizing of Roy's cutthroat nature, will to win, and playoff excellence going on in this thread, how can getting his doors blown off against his club's biggest rival in a game 7 not be considered a gaffe at some level, especially considering the relative weakness of each of the first three goals of that game?

And how exactly is that not a part of a serious discussion?
Because it's cherry picking and it's no different than showing the youtube clip of Lidstrom being beat to the outside to argue that he wasn't one of the greatest defensive D-men in history.

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10-16-2012, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
It's not just a bad game. It's the "most clutch goaltender ever" literally giving away the opening goal in game six
As if he should have stopped it with that defensive coverage anyway? Yeah. He dropped it. And then he stopped a breakaway with a Statue of Liberty less than one minute later on the clock (though the beginning of the next period) and had a great game. They went from being out-shot 11-4 in the game to out-shooting the Red Wings 20-17 after Roy's breakaway save on Fedorov, so if you're theorizing that the opening goal somehow killed the Avalanche and put them into a shell, that wasn't the case. They were a tired team trying to win three straight Game 7s - something that no team has ever done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Considering the amount of lionizing of Roy's cutthroat nature, will to win, and playoff excellence going on in this thread, how can getting his doors blown off against his club's biggest rival in a game 7 not be considered a gaffe at some level, especially considering the relative weakness of each of the first three goals of that game?
First of all, I've handed you a second gaffe in that series: McCarty's hat trick goal in Game 1.

Second, you're ignoring his other two Game 7s that playoff:

Roy: 23/23; 1.000
Potvin: 23/26; .885

Roy: 27/27; 1.000
Nabokov: 22/23; .957


At the time, he was already four Stanley Cups, four 1st Team All-Star selections, five Top-Fives in Hart voting, and three Conn Smythes deep into his career when it happened. Unless someone is going to use it to try to establish that he wouldn't be a successful player past an advanced age, it's probably not going to be a defining moment in this thread.

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10-16-2012, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
I think it matters when people try to paint the Sabres offense as a consistent, productive unit, on par with the Stars of that era, when this just wasn't the case.

And if we're comparing, Hasek to Kolzig and especially Belfour, why doesn't Hasek get more credit for beating Roy in 2002, especially considering he shut out the Avs in a critical game six, in a series marred by Patrick's gaffes?

The lack of a consistent standard among Roy fans is astonishing.
Exactly all of this. Although I'm a Roy fan, and trying to stay as consistent as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Because Patrick Roy had a great series outside of two games.
And Hasek had a great series against Dallas period. But that's "getting outplayed by Belfour", with the games so close despite the divide in talent. I totally get it...


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 10-16-2012 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Merged. If your points are going to basically be one-liners, please use the "multiquote" function
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10-16-2012, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
I think it matters when people try to paint the Sabres offense as a consistent, productive unit, on par with the Stars of that era, when this just wasn't the case.

And if we're comparing, Hasek to Kolzig and especially Belfour, why doesn't Hasek get more credit for beating Roy in 2002, especially considering he shut out the Avs in a critical game six, in a series marred by Patrick's gaffes?

The lack of a consistent standard among Roy fans is astonishing.
You mean when the 116 point completely and utterly stacked with Hall of Famers Detroit Redwings beat the Av's in a 7 game series that had absolutely no business what so ever even going 7 games if not for Roy's heroics earlier in the series?
That one?

The same series where despite the Av's being out shot 165-125 in the first 5 games, they held a 3-2 series lead going into game 6?


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10-16-2012, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
You mean when the 116 point completely and utterly stacked with Hall of Famers Detroit Redwings beat the Av's in a 7 game series that had absolutely no business what so ever even going 7 games if not for Roy's heroics earlier in the series?
That one?
And this scenario/setup is so dissimilar from Hasek and the Sabres facing the 114 point powerhouse Stars they "had absolutely no business" taking to 6 games in '99 exactly how, other than the fact that the '02 Avs were a much better team than the '99 Sabres? No Hasek heroics there at all, huh? Interesting.

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10-16-2012, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
And this scenario/setup is so dissimilar from Hasek and the Sabres facing the 114 point powerhouse Stars they "had absolutely no business" taking to 6 games in '99 exactly how, other than the fact that the '02 Avs were a much better team than the '99 Sabres? No Hasek heroics there at all, huh? Interesting.
That in '99 is was about Belfour shutting down the Sabres in games 5 and 6 stopping an enormous amount of shots to do it.
While in '02, the Redwings simply overpowered a much weaker Av's team in games 6 and 7.
Hasek WAS NOT the reason the Wings beat the Av's in '02 nor was Hasek even in the top 3 for the Conn Smythe that year.

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10-16-2012, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
That in '99 is was about Belfour shutting down the Sabres in games 5 and 6 stopping an enormous amount of shots to do it.
While in '02, the Redwings simply overpowered a much weaker Av's team in games 6 and 7.
Hasek WAS NOT the reason the Wings beat the Av's in '02 nor was Hasek even in the top 3 for the Conn Smythe that year.
Hasek was the reason the Sabres gave the Stars as much of a run as they did in '99, and Roy was the reason the Avs gave the Red Wings as much of a run as they did in '02. That's the distilled truth.

But I also have to call you on suggesting/implying that the divide between the '02 Avs and Wings was greater than that between the '99 Sabres and Stars.

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10-16-2012, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Hasek was the reason the Sabres gave the Stars as much of a run as they did in '99, and Roy was the reason the Avs gave the Red Wings as much of a run as they did in '02. That's the distilled truth.

But I also have to call you on suggesting/implying that the divide between the '02 Avs and Wings was greater than that between the '99 Sabres and Stars.
Dude...that '02 Wings team had a huge gap on any team since the Dynasty teams prior to '93

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10-16-2012, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
It's rhetoric. You're free to offer it, but it doesn't do much to advance the discussion.

Roy had a bad game in a big moment. It's not a gaffe, and it's not something that other top goaltenders haven't done.
You're really arguing semantics. Whether you consider it a "gaffe" or not, Roy did not play well in those two games. "Calling out" Roy for those games was also not the point of the original post you responded to. Additionally, my second(?) post in this string was strictly defending my use of gaffe to describe Roy's game 7, not using it to levy any legitimate career criticism.

Earlier, in discussion of the 1999 SCF, the Roy contingent claimed that Belfour outplayed Hasek, but Dom does not get that same credit for allowing zero goals to the Avalanche in two must-win games, pretty much because of his team advantage, despite the Stars also being a significantly better team than the '99 Sabres.

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10-16-2012, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Dude...that '02 Wings team had a huge gap on any team since the Dynasty teams prior to '93
And yet they managed a whole 2 more points on the season compared to the '99 Stars...

But more importantly, since it's more to the point, it was a 116 point Red Wings team playing a 99 point division-leading Avs team (whose roster we're all quite familiar with) compared to a 114 points Stars team playing a 91 point 4th in their division Sabres team...

Sorry, but those matchups (on paper at the very least) greatly favoured defending champion Colorado's chances for success, imo.


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10-16-2012, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
You're really arguing semantics. Whether you consider it a "gaffe" or not, Roy did not play well in those two games. "Calling out" Roy for those games was also not the point of the original post you responded to. Additionally, my second(?) post in this string was strictly defending my use of gaffe to describe Roy's game 7, not using it to levy any legitimate career criticism.

Earlier, in discussion of the 1999 SCF, the Roy contingent claimed that Belfour outplayed Hasek, but Dom does not get that same credit for allowing zero goals to the Avalanche in two must-win games, pretty much because of his team advantage, despite the Stars also being a significantly better team than the '99 Sabres.
Exactly the problem in consistency I've been trying to shed light on.

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10-16-2012, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
You're really arguing semantics.
If you're going to introduce semantics-related topics, I'm going to argue them.

You're right, though - Patrick Roy is the first goaltender in the history of the league to have a bad game, and he must be punished. How's that for some hyperbole?

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10-16-2012, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
If you're going to introduce semantics-related topics, I'm going to argue them.

You're right, though - Patrick Roy is the first goaltender in the history of the league to have a bad game, and he must be punished. How's that for some hyperbole?
In quoting me, why did you delete the rest of my post which explains exactly what I meant, in a way that at least one other person is understanding?

However you consider Roy's game 7, a gaffe (I think it was enough of a blunder, given his track record up until then for the term to apply, but again, semantics), a bad game, something that could happen to anybody, whatever, is legitimately irrelevant to the rest of my original post and the point that I'm actually trying to make.

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10-16-2012, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
In quoting me, why did you delete the rest of my post which explains exactly what I meant, in a way that at least one other person is understanding?
Because I also know exactly what you meant (and I also know why you chose the word "gaffe").

If I may hazard a guess, I also know why you chose the phrase "Roy contingent" - because you see it as a Hasek vs. Roy streetfight, and you consider yourself a member of the "Hasek contingent". Is that accurate?

(For what it's worth, Hasek was ahead of Roy in my pre-vote rankings, and he'll be ahead of Roy in my post-vote rankings.)

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