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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Dominik Hasek retires, what is the legacy?

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Old
10-18-2012, 10:58 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by wolfgaze View Post
....
not sure if you're laughing in agreement, or ridicule, but let me just add that Fischler is a great historian, fact collector and information sponge. It's the opinions that he forms after collecting this information that are wacky. His books are often very good historical references, just don't start to take his opinions as facts. His facts are facts, though.

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10-18-2012, 12:54 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
..and who exactly is saying otherwise?

The only thing being said is that Patrick Roy was more legendary than any other goalie in the playoffs.
More legendary, perhaps. Still no proof that he actually played "better" individually (i.e. "independent" of his team) than other legendary goalies in other playoffs. And that's the point for some, including myself.

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10-18-2012, 01:21 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
So now Bourque and Roy peaked for basically their entire careers with no hiccups?
My discussion of Roy throughout this thread has been about his playoff performances and that does indeed span a 17 year peak.

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You are greatly exaggerating this and it's unfortunate that Hasek didn't come over earlier because who knows what he would have accomplished if he had. His years in Europe should certainly count as something though and you seem to be excluding them altogether.
Oh look, more coulda, shoulda, woulda....awesome
Do I get to count Roy, right out of Junior(1 regular season AHL game played), leading the Sherbrooke Canadiens to the AHL Calder Cup in '85 then?

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Both Hasek and Bourque had to go to other teams near the end of their careers to win Cups.
Big difference between playing a season and change on another team in your 21rst and 22nd season and playing 5 seasons in your 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th season. Because 9 seasons in Buffalo is the same as almost 21 seasons in Boston
Oh and last I checked, Hasek and a very good Hawks team went to the finals in his rookie season as well. I'd like to say if Hasek played in those finals at all to add more weight but the summary project is missing the '92 playoffs for some reason.

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Both Roy and Lidstrom played in stable environments with some great teams for most of their careers and were huge parts of 4 cups.
On its face, this is loosely accurate and well worded to be but if you're trying to say that Lidstrom had as much impact in the playoffs as Roy or if you are trying to say that the gap between Lidstrom and Bourque in the playoffs is as great as the gap between Roy and Hasek in the playoffs...
Like, are you honestly trying to say that Lidstrom is the greatest playoff D-man ever by the same kind of margin that Roy holds over other goalies in the playoffs? RIDICULOUS!!!

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I don't know how you can support Roy so much and be against Lidstrom. It's completely inconsistent.
See, here is where you're screwing up. You are basing your entire rant here on the premise that I am saying that Roy is the greatest of all time. When in fact, what I have maintained all along is that I go back and forth between the two and I have actually leaned towards Hasek more often over the years than Roy. (Go through my posts if you need to but it's all there)

All I have said in this thread or the other 2 going is...
That Roy is by far the greatest playoff goalie ever and that FACT makes up a lot of ground on Hasek's regular season dominance.
That it is very close between the two and anyone saying it isn't is quite frankly an idiot.


Nice try though


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 10-18-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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Old
10-18-2012, 01:26 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
More legendary, perhaps. Still no proof that he actually played "better" individually (i.e. "independent" of his team) than other legendary goalies in other playoffs. And that's the point for some, including myself.
151 PO wins
.616 PO winning %
.744 PO series winning %
40-16 PO OT record
4 Cups
3 Conn Smythe's

Would tend to say otherwise, especially considering no other goalie is even remotely close to matching any of it.

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10-18-2012, 01:29 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
151 PO wins
.616 PO winning %
.744 PO series winning %
40-16 PO OT record
4 Cups
3 Conn Smythe's

Would tend to say otherwise, especially considering no other goalie is even remotely close to matching any of it.
Those are highly team-dependent, and doesn't really prove that Roy played better than any other goaltender in the playoffs. It just shows that his teams played well.

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10-18-2012, 01:31 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
151 PO wins
.616 PO winning %
.744 PO series winning %
40-16 PO OT record
4 Cups

3 Conn Smythe's

Would tend to say otherwise, especially considering no other goalie is even remotely close to matching any of it.
Team stats bolded.

Even Conn Smythes are largely team dependent, as plenty of goalies have been deemed "best" in a given season (Vezina trophy), but didn't have teams those same years to get them into contention to "prove" it for the post season as well. If the team wasn't the primary factor, then Roy should have at least one Conn Smythe to go with one of his three Vezinas. If his reputation for putting a team on his back in the playoffs is deserved, then what was the difference between him in the playoffs the years he won the Vezina vs the years he won the Conn Smythes? Did his level of play drop those years, "letting his team down"? If you don't/can't answer with "the overall strength of the team in front of him" (and the competition, of course), then I really don't know what to say.


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10-18-2012, 01:46 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Those are highly team-dependent, and doesn't really prove that Roy played better than any other goaltender in the playoffs. It just shows that his teams played well.
But I think we know after watching and actually witnessing him through it all that we do in fact know it.
Anyone that can stand up in the dressing room before the start of a playoff overtime and say "Don't worry about it guys, just worry about getting a goal because I'm not letting any in." is obviously on another level.


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10-18-2012, 01:51 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Team stats bolded.

Even Conn Smythes are largely team dependent, as plenty of goalies have been deemed "best" in a given season (Vezina trophy), but didn't have teams those same years to get them into contention to "prove" it for the post season as well. If the team wasn't the primary factor, then Roy should have at least one Conn Smythe to go with one of his three Vezinas. If his reputation for putting a team on his back in the playoffs is deserved, then what was the difference between him in the playoffs the years he won the Vezina vs the years he won the Conn Smythes? Did his level of play drop those years, "letting his team down"? If you don't/can't answer with "the overall strength of the team in front of him" (and the competition, of course), then I really don't know what to say.
And what are you going to use for Hasek, save % and GAA?
Save % and GAA doesn't win you Cups my friend.
Look at Grant Fuhr, the guy is much maligned around here because he let in a lot of goals but when it came down to trying to score a gaol on him that mattered like a trying goal or winning goal on him, he was amazing.

You can stop 99 of 100 shots but if that 1 goal loses you the game, it doesn't really matter does it?
Roy was clutch, we all saw it, we all know it and that's not something that is going to just boldly show up on a stat line.


And once again, this isn't just about Roy vs Hasek. It's about Roy vs Brodeur, it's about Roy vs Belfour, it's about Roy vs every other goalie that had just as much or even more opportunity/team strength than Roy had. Not one of them comes close to performing at the level Roy did!


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10-18-2012, 02:09 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
My discussion of Roy throughout this thread has been about his playoff performances and that does indeed span a 17 year peak.
So Roy had no flaws or hiccups in those 17 playoff years? Everyone one was part of a peak?

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Oh look, more coulda, shoulda, woulda....awesome
Do I get to count Roy, right out of Junior(1 regular season AHL game played), leading the Sherbrooke Canadiens to the AHL Calder Cup in '85 then?
What's funny about this is I used the "coulda, shoulda, woulda" quote for Bourque when people claimed he would have won more cups on another team or he would have won more Norris' if he played at another time.

Sure, count the '85 Calder Cup. Why wouldn't you? It's a part of his pro career.

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Big difference between playing a season and change on another team in your 21rst and 22nd season and playing 5 seasons in your 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th and 15th season. Because 9 seasons in Buffalo is the same as almost 21 seasons in Boston
Oh and last I checked, Hasek and a very good Hawks team went to the finals in his rookie season as well. I'd like to say if Hasek played in those finals at all to add more weight but the summary project is missing the '92 playoffs for some reason.
Hasek is European and he played roughly half his career in Europe. That's unfortunate for us North American fans cause we didn't get to see him. He also had to adjust to the North American game when he first came over. You have to respect both of these factors cause look at what he did once he did get comfortable in the NHL.

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
On its face, this is loosely accurate and well worded to be but if you're trying to say that Lidstrom had as much impact in the playoffs as Roy or if you are trying to say that the gap between Lidstrom and Bourque in the playoffs is as great as the gap between Roy and Hasek in the playoffs...
Like, are you honestly trying to say that Lidstrom is the greatest playoff D-man ever by the same kind of margin that Roy holds over other goalies in the playoffs? RIDICULOUS!!!
Lidstrom was the greatest playoff performing defenseman in the modern 30 team era with Stevens 2nd in my opionion. That's nothing to laugh at and it's not ridiculous to put it in the same light as the greatest playoff goalie of the modern era. Hell, Lidstrom's teams often got away with not having an elite goalie largely because of him.

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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
See, here is where you're screwing up. You are basing your entire rant here on the premise that I am saying that Roy is the greatest of all time. When in fact, what I have maintained all along is that I go back and forth between the two and I have actually leaned towards Hasek more often over the years than Roy. (Go through my posts if you need to but it's all there)

All I have said in this thread or the other 2 going is...
That Roy is by far the greatest playoff goalie ever and that FACT makes up a lot of ground on Hasek's regular season dominance.
That it is very close between the two and anyone saying it isn't is quite frankly an idiot.


Nice try though
I'm not basing it on that at all. I'm basing it on your posts and attitude you have towards these two debates. You go on and on about Roy and his playoff career but always seemed to shy away from it when it came to Lidstrom. The two debates are very similar when it comes to playoff comparisons but you would never know it from how you attack each debate. That shows a clear bias and inconsistency.

I've always maintained that playoff performances (crunch and clutch time) should be weighed more heavily than regular season play and that results are what really matter. I'm standing by that so I would give a slight edge to Roy and a slight edge to Lidstrom overall. I agree both are extremely comparable.

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10-18-2012, 02:35 PM
  #210
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The facts are this :

Lots of players have had conflicts with coaches they didnít like.

Patrick Roy is the only player in the last 20 to walk out on his team and contract mid-season over such a conflict.

Were there reasons to be unhappy? Probably. But ĎI donít like my coachí is not a reason to walk out on your contract and your teammates. It was a prima-donna flake-out job, full stop.
He didn't walk out. You're blatantly ignoring facts that have been stated by Houle, Roy, and Tremblay. Roy told Corey it was his last game. Tremblay cursed Roy out in the locker room. Roy apologized the next day. Houle suspended him. Those are the facts. He did not walk out on his contract.

Spreading misinformation because you're too lazy to look it up is unjustifiable.


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Originally Posted by MS
2.33 goals isnít 1.5 or 1.8. Roy was spectacular in that series and it was exceptionally difficult to win, but not as difficult as the 3 situations Hasek faced in the 1990s.
The Canadiens scored 16 goals in 427 minutes. That's 2.25 GPG. Subtract the empty-netter, and you have 2.11 GPG. Now consider that this is 1986 where the average team scores 4.13 GPG and not 1999 where the average team scores 2.63 GPG.

Looking at the binary of whether or not there is exactly 2.00 GPG or less is obviously going to favor goaltenders in a lower-scoring year.

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10-18-2012, 02:39 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
But I think we know after watching and actually witnessing him through it all that we do in fact know it.
Anyone that can stand up in the dressing room before the start of a playoff overtime and say "Don't worry about it guys, just worry about getting a goal because I'm not letting any in." is obviously on another level.
Oh, sure - he was a great playoff goalie.

But when you're talking about "best ever" discussions, the bar of proof is higher.

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10-18-2012, 02:39 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
So Roy had no flaws or hiccups in those 17 playoff years? Everyone one was part of a peak?
Who's saying he didn't? The fact is he won his first Conn in '86, a second in '93 and his last in '02...17 years.

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What's funny about this is I used the "coulda, shoulda, woulda" quote for Bourque when people claimed he would have won more cups on another team or he would have won more Norris' if he played at another time.
Dude...there's a HUGE difference between facing 13 years of Isles, Oilers and Pens Dynasty teams and facing what Hasek faced. Gimme a break.

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Sure, count the '85 Calder Cup. Why wouldn't you? It's a part of his pro career.
Ok, so Roy has 5 Cups then
And I mean as long as we're in the coulda/shoulda/woulda realm. What are the odds that if the '98 Czech vs Canada game was continous OT instead of an idiotic shootout, that Roy (the Overtime king) prevails instead of Hasek. I know where my money would be on that one

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Hasek is European and he played roughly half his career in Europe. That's unfortunate for us North American fans cause we didn't get to see him. He also had to adjust to the North American game when he first came over. You have to respect both of these factors cause look at what he did once he did get comfortable in the NHL.
And that goalie equipment had to evolve to a certain level before he could play his unique style successfully.
It's also not Roy's fault that he didn't come over earlier. Nor is it Roy's fault that Hasek couldn't usurp Belfour for the starting job.
Nor is it Roy's fault that Hasek wasted 2 great opportunities for playoff success because of questionable/flakey injuries.


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Lidstrom was the greatest playoff performing defenseman in the modern 30 team era with Stevens 2nd in my opionion. That's nothing to laugh at and it's not ridiculous to put it in the same light as the greatest playoff goalie of the modern era. Hell, Lidstrom's teams often got away with not having an elite goalie largely because of him.
Not to mention the other dozen or more Hall of Famers they had as well eh
Heh, 30 team league...nice wording. Wow so we're going back all of 11 years to make that distinction eh
I think some guy named Chris Pronger might have something to say about that in that specific time frame my friend.
And still, to again imply that Lidstrom is as far (if he is all) ahead of other D-men in playoffs as Roy is ahead of other goalies...yes I'm still laughing.


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I'm not basing it on that at all. I'm basing it on your posts and attitude you have towards these two debates. You go on and on about Roy and his playoff career but always seemed to shy away from it when it came to Lidstrom. The two debates are very similar when it comes to playoff comparisons but you would never know it from how you attack each debate. That shows a clear bias and inconsistency.
Because it's apples and oranges. Lidstrom's playoff career is NOT on the same level as Roy's! Not in accolades, not in stats and by far the most important thing, not in comparison to his peers.

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I've always maintained that playoff performances (crunch and clutch time) should be weighed more heavily than regular season play and that results are what really matter. I'm standing by that so I would give a slight edge to Roy and a slight edge to Lidstrom overall. I agree both are extremely comparable.
There is a hell of a lot more than just a slight edge and they are NOT comparable. Roy has no comparable in playoff performance and results, no goalie or player period!

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Old
10-18-2012, 03:18 PM
  #213
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Nor is it Roy's fault that Hasek couldn't usurp Belfour for the starting job.
So again, then we get to denigrate Roy for being pulled against Hartford, despite the 3-0 series lead.

See, it's not your end result that I have an issue with, it's the complete lack of objectivity in comparing each.

Edit, what's Hasek's second flaky injury? The groin in Ottawa?


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10-18-2012, 03:27 PM
  #214
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So again, then we get to denigrate Roy for being pulled against Hartford, despite the 3-0 series lead.

See, it's not your end result that I have an issue with, it's the complete lack of objectivity in comparing each.
Actually, the point I was making there was that Hasek failed to take advantage of an opportunity early with a very good team in Chicago before he was shipped off to Buffalo. Where I might add, he took his sweet ass time usurping Fuhr there.

It was presented as a missed opportunity to counter the argument that Hasek didn't have any while Roy only had them.
Neither goalie was perfect but Roy made the most of his opportunities while Hasek squandered more than a couple of his.

Contrary to the revisionism being spouted, Hasek did indeed have opportunities to succeed in the playoffs with very good teams that he didn't or couldn't take advantage of.


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10-18-2012, 03:57 PM
  #215
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Edit, what's Hasek's second flaky injury? The groin in Ottawa?
Yep.

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10-18-2012, 04:09 PM
  #216
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I think it's also pretty silly to ignore that the Conne Smythe is not just an individual accomplishment, and that saying Roy > Hasek based solely on them is very misleading.
I agree that it's silly to look at any one individual criteria to proclaim one goalie better than another.

I also agree that for a player to win the Conn Smythe, his teammates have to play well enough to get him into position to win the award.

But the Conn Smythe isn't the only team-influenced individual trophy. Do you think Hasek sniffs either of his Hart trophies if he's playing behind Joe Sakic and Peter Forsberg? I don't.

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10-18-2012, 06:11 PM
  #217
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I agree that it's silly to look at any one individual criteria to proclaim one goalie better than another.

I also agree that for a player to win the Conn Smythe, his teammates have to play well enough to get him into position to win the award.

But the Conn Smythe isn't the only team-influenced individual trophy. Do you think Hasek sniffs either of his Hart trophies if he's playing behind Joe Sakic and Peter Forsberg? I don't.
Hard to tell. There is definitely a bias towards forwards, and with a better forward/d-corps in front of him it's very likely Hasek is considered less valuable to his team's success (especially when you consider he probably wouldn't have faced the most rubber in those two seasons, like he did).

That being said, Hasek clearly distinguished himself in those two seasons. He won by a fairly massive margin in '97, and somewhat less so in '98 (50 and 43 first place votes out of 54, respectively). Roy himself finished 3rd in Hart voting (and snagged 1st All-Star Team over the Hart winner) in 2002 playing behind Sakic and a strong, if not as strong as years past, Avalanche team (with Forsberg on the sidelines until the playoffs).

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10-18-2012, 06:29 PM
  #218
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Yep.
We're docking Hasek for suffering an injury at 41 now? Jesus.

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10-18-2012, 06:37 PM
  #219
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We're docking Hasek for suffering an injury at 41 now? Jesus.
Not the injury, the recovery time.
Especially when every source out there was stating that Hasek was cleared to play a week before the playoffs even started.
It was Hasek's choice to remain out of the line up and what's more, it was Hasek's choice to not even get on the ice or even do light practices at that point.
And it was Hasek's choice to turn down Afly when he came pleading and begging to Hasek to return for the second round.


Roy-Appendicitis-1994-nuff said

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10-18-2012, 06:49 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And what are you going to use for Hasek, save % and GAA?
I watched both of their entire careers, and formed a decision. All of this stats corroboration stuff is just brain candy that I've also enjoyed playing with since it became so widely available on the internet over the past decade or so. Interestingly enough, though, the more informed I become historically and statistically and the more I play around with the stats, the less inclined I am to believe that there's the existence of some level of playoff goaltending so far above the collection of Hasek's best that allows someone to usurp his claim on #1 "overall" GOAT.


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10-18-2012, 07:26 PM
  #221
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I watched both of their entire careers, and formed a decision. All of this stats corroboration stuff is just brain candy that I've also enjoyed playing with since it became so widely available on the internet over the past decade or so. Interestingly enough, though, the more informed I become historically and statistically and the more I play around with the stats, the less inclined I am to believe that there's the existence of some level of playoff goaltending so far above the collection of Hasek's best that allows someone to usurp his claim on #1 "overall" GOAT.
I guess it then comes down to whether or not you believe a .939 save % in 1999 is actually that far ahead of a .926 in 1986, a .929 in 1993 or a .934 in 2001.

Obviously I must have a different way of interpreting the stats because I am definitely at a loss to see where Hasek is making up much ground on Roy there.

The thing I do agree with is the question of whether or not Roy's playoff heroics are enough to overtake Hasek as the GOAT but then again, I said that is exactly what needs to be weighed in any conversation about these two at the beginning of all this sooo....


And honestly, I would be very much interested to hear your arguments as to how Hasek should even be considered equal to or ahead of Brodeur or Belfour in playoff performance.


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10-18-2012, 08:01 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
I guess it then comes down to whether or not you believe a .939 save % in 1999 is actually that far ahead of a .926 in 1986, a .929 in 1993 or a .934 in 2001.

Obviously I must have a different way of interpreting the stats because I am definitely at a loss to see where Hasek is making up much ground on Roy there.

The thing I do agree with is the question of whether or not Roy's playoff heroics are enough to overtake Hasek as the GOAT but then again, I said that is exactly what needs to be weighed in any conversation about these two at the beginning of all this sooo....


And honestly, I would be very much interested to hear your arguments as to how Hasek should even be considered equal to or ahead of Brodeur or Belfour in playoff performance.
i don't think hasek does equal brodeur or belfour's playoff resumes. but his regular seasons are so far ahead that, to me, it would take a roy playoff resume for them to be in the same conversation as hasek and his six vezinas, two harts, and historically good save percentages.

incidentally, i have roy ahead of brodeur and belfour in regular season performance. brodeur is very close, brodeur is decisively behind.

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10-18-2012, 08:18 PM
  #223
cujoflutie
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Save percentage IMO is heavily flawed;

Goalie A makes a clean save with no rebound and then makes a clean puck handling play . 1 save
Goalie B makes a save and coughs up a rebound and needs to make 2 more. Next shift makes a puckhandling gaffe forcing him to make 2 more saves; 6 saves there.

Statistically goalie B looks better since he gets 6 saves compared to A's 1 but which one is sounder goaltending? Well goalie A is a microcausm of Roy while B is Hasek.

He wasn't doing it on purpose but Hasek made a lot of easy saves look hard and created more work for himself flopping around back there coughing up rebounds. He had the acrobatics to overcome it. Roy was far more technique than athleticism. This may also imply WHY Roy was so much better in the playoffs; everything gets put into a bigger microscope on the playoffs; scouting the opposition and matchups and all the video analysis make the pre game prep closer to football. How often do you think teams watch game tape of their upcoming opponents playing another team in the regular season? Probably not an awful lot but they sure do in the playoffs.... particularly before overtime is about to start.... see where I'm going here?

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10-18-2012, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Seems to me, he was disagreeing with triple rewarding Hasek for winning three regular season awards for the same season, as if there is some mathematical formula that Hasek's 1996-97 regular season should count as much as Roy's 1986, 1993, and 2001 playoffs combined

Hasek gets triple rewarded because he won 3 awards. He could have won any one of them and not won the others. The Conn Smythe is but one award so Roy gets credit for one award.

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10-18-2012, 08:37 PM
  #225
Rhiessan71
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Hasek gets triple rewarded because he won 3 awards. He could have won any one of them and not won the others. The Conn Smythe is but one award so Roy gets credit for one award.
Heh, are you seriously not getting what Devil said?
It's still 6 Awards in only 2 seasons worth of work. He gets credit for being not only the best goalie but the best player in the league those 2 years but he doesn't get triple credit for the same body of work.

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