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Old
10-20-2012, 08:40 PM
  #601
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Like the Fact we had 2 PPG players last year, for the first time in 20yrs.
Like the fact this franchise has more former 1st round picks in it since before the lockout.
Like the Fact this team maintained its 10th overall scoring while getting younger and concentrating it's top scoring.
Like the fact Burke has not moved a 1st round pick since he moved 2 when he acquired the >25yrs old player who was the 6th leading scoring in the NHL last year.
Like the Fact he has hired the best people available at their positions to help him.
Like the Fact he lured more Top unsigned UFA's than any other GM in the LEague since he's been here.
Like the fact HE hasn't rushed any Prospects too quickly to the NHL.
Like the Fact the Last 2 1st round picks that were Rushed to quickly have both been traded, with an >25yr old, former #2 overall, being one of the players coming back.
Like the fact he has made THREE absolute steal of deal trades. Compared to the ONE mediocre Trade(May have lost overall but we did have the 6th best scorer in the league last year.)

PLease I beg you.

Pick these FACTS apart.

Can wait to hear you're "Ya. But..." s
Hilarious!!

[QUOTE]"I'm not interested ... in a five-year rebuild like some of these teams have done," said Burke. "Maybe because of my age, maybe just because I know it doesn't have to be five years because it wasn't in Anaheim.

"I like the group that finished the year, I think just on internal improvement we will be better. I think we will be good enough with this group and a couple additions to say in training camp that the playoffs are a reasonable goal."

“It’s not easy to fix a team that’s broken. I had no delusions. I watched GMs get up on their first day and say: ‘I’ve got a five-year plan.’ They’re buying five years out of the gate. I don’t respect that. My view is I was hopeful to do it quicker..."

“I would say for us goaltending and a No. 1 centre would be the biggest positional needs. ...We’re not big enough to play my way. That has to be addressed. That’s not optional. We can’t play the way Randy (Carlyle) wants to play with this group. We have to get bigger.”

“The goaltending wasn’t good enough this year. I think that James Reimer is the real deal. I think we can still plan on him being the No. 1 guy, but we have to look at bringing in a guy that gives us more options and more performance right from the get-go next year.”
[/QUOTE]

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10-20-2012, 08:58 PM
  #602
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
Hilarious!!

[QUOTE]"I'm not interested ... in a five-year rebuild like some of these teams have done," said Burke. "Maybe because of my age, maybe just because I know it doesn't have to be five years because it wasn't in Anaheim.

"I like the group that finished the year, I think just on internal improvement we will be better. I think we will be good enough with this group and a couple additions to say in training camp that the playoffs are a reasonable goal."

“It’s not easy to fix a team that’s broken. I had no delusions. I watched GMs get up on their first day and say: ‘I’ve got a five-year plan.’ They’re buying five years out of the gate. I don’t respect that. My view is I was hopeful to do it quicker..."

“I would say for us goaltending and a No. 1 centre would be the biggest positional needs. ...We’re not big enough to play my way. That has to be addressed. That’s not optional. We can’t play the way Randy (Carlyle) wants to play with this group. We have to get bigger.”

“The goaltending wasn’t good enough this year. I think that James Reimer is the real deal. I think we can still plan on him being the No. 1 guy, but we have to look at bringing in a guy that gives us more options and more performance right from the get-go next year.”
[/QUOTE]



So because he has not acheived averything he set forth he should be fired?
Did you not say at the time he was blowing smoke up your butt? I know I did.

As I said, do you think any of the other 29GM's felt sorry for him and tried to help him?

What are your facts for not extending him?

He hasn't achieved his innitial goals, that most people thought were rediculous anyways?

Fine that is one argument. If you hate what he says to the media, then that is somethign personal and has no bearing on the team or it's roster.

To keep quoting his interviews where he is only being honest as a NEgative is meaningless.

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10-20-2012, 09:04 PM
  #603
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
1)Like the fact this franchise has more former 1st round picks in it since before the lockout.
2)Like the Fact this team maintained its 10th overall scoring while getting younger and concentrating it's top scoring.
3)Like the fact Burke has not moved a 1st round pick since he moved 2 when he acquired the >25yrs old player who was the 6th leading scoring in the NHL last year.
4)Like the Fact he has hired the best people available at their positions to help him.
5)Like the Fact he lured more Top unsigned UFA's than any other GM in the LEague since he's been here.
6)Like the fact he has made THREE absolute steal of deal trades. Compared to the ONE mediocre Trade(May have lost overall but we did have the 6th best scorer in the league last year.)

PLease I beg you.

Pick these FACTS apart.

Can wait to hear you're "Ya. But..." s
i don't know why i'm wasting my time replying to you but here goes .

1) Anyone can aquire multiple former first round picks , this statements means nothing without looking at the players aquired . Ott aquired a recent 6th overall pick for a 3rd rounder for example . I guess going by your example they totally ripped off the jackets .

2) Why is concentrating your scoring good ? It hasn't helped the team and our 2nd and 3rd leading scorers are 28 and 29 so they're hardly kids . Also Grabo was here before Burke .

3) How can anyone think it's an accomplishment that GM of a team that has finished 7th/2nd/9th/5th last has traded only 2 of those picks ?

4) WTF do you base this on . He hired a person he called the best goalie coach in the world and then turned around and called him obsolete .

5) Lured the most top UFA's ? The key to a quality troll is to be subtle .

6) He's made one great deal ( Gards ) and got bent over on one . Trade dealine deals almost always favor the seller so i can't give him credit on those .


Last edited by hotpaws: 10-20-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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10-20-2012, 09:07 PM
  #604
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Like the Fact we had 2 PPG players last year, for the first time in 20yrs.
Like the fact this franchise has more former 1st round picks in it since before the lockout.
Like the Fact this team maintained its 10th overall scoring while getting younger and concentrating it's top scoring.
Like the fact Burke has not moved a 1st round pick since he moved 2 when he acquired the >25yrs old player who was the 6th leading scoring in the NHL last year.
Like the Fact he has hired the best people available at their positions to help him.
Like the Fact he lured more Top unsigned UFA's than any other GM in the LEague since he's been here.
Like the fact HE hasn't rushed any Prospects too quickly to the NHL.
Like the Fact the Last 2 1st round picks that were Rushed to quickly have both been traded, with an >25yr old, former #2 overall, being one of the players coming back.
Like the fact he has made THREE absolute steal of deal trades. Compared to the ONE mediocre Trade(May have lost overall but we did have the 6th best scorer in the league last year.)

PLease I beg you.

Pick these FACTS apart.

Can wait to hear you're "Ya. But..." s
Under your logic, every single GM in nhl history has done a great job.
You will ALWAYS be able to stat mine a couple of good things a GM has done.

But it's the big picture that matters.
You can keep making lists of the smaller improvements he's done. (after four years, any gm would have done at least a few good things).
I could respond by making a list of the smaller mistakes he's done (and there's LOTS... overpaying for Kessel, ridiculous free agent signings like Komisarek and Connolly etc., keeping Ron Wilson for WAY too long, etc.)

However, that game matters little. It turns into a wash. It turns into comparisons that are devoid of overall substance. It's using spin and rhetoric in attempts to ignore the big picture.

So let's look at that BIG PICTURE.

The team Burke took over was 10th in goals for. Current team is 10th.
The team Burke took over was 30th in goals against. Current team is 29th.
The team Burke took over finished 7th last. Current team finished 5th last.
The team Burke took over had higher rated prospects according to BOTH hf and the Hockey News than the current team.
All after FOUR bottom 10 finishes.

Those facts speak for themselves.

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Old
10-20-2012, 09:30 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
[/B]


So because he has not acheived averything he set forth he should be fired?
Did you not say at the time he was blowing smoke up your butt? I know I did.

As I said, do you think any of the other 29GM's felt sorry for him and tried to help him?

What are your facts for not extending him?

He hasn't achieved his innitial goals, that most people thought were rediculous anyways?

Fine that is one argument. If you hate what he says to the media, then that is somethign personal and has no bearing on the team or it's roster.

To keep quoting his interviews where he is only being honest as a NEgative is meaningless.[/QUOTE]

The team has not improved. It's that simple. Your spin is laughable. I believe in accountability. Therefore he should be fired. Richest team in the NHL and this is what we get? This has to be a sick joke.

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10-20-2012, 09:37 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
i don't know why i'm wasting my time replying to you but here goes .

1) Anyone can aquire multiple former first round picks , this statements means nothing without looking at the players aquired . Ott aquired a recent 6th overall pick for a 3rd rounder for example . I guess going by your example they totally ripped off the jackets .
Really? Anyone?

So why have the LEafs had so few in the last 4 decades?
Does not the GM have to have the cajones to stand up to ownership and Say "NO".

An established NHL player is a big differene from a busted top 10 pick.

YOu are twisting and ignoring fact.

Quote:

2) Why is concentrating your scoring good ? It hasn't helped the team and our 2nd and 3rd leading scorers are 28 and 29 so they's hardly kids . Also Grabo was here before Burke .
But all three are younger than the 3 they compare to in 2008.

Why is concentrating scoring important?
With limited number of roster spots you might as well have the most talented players in them.

I find it much easier to find 3rd line talent than 1st.


Quote:
3) How can anyone think it's an accomplishment that GM of a team that has finished 7th/2nd/9th/5th last has traded only 2 of those picks ?
He isn't pressured by me, you the media, ownership or no one.

Or do you think JFJ really wanted to make either goalie trade?
Quote:
4) WTF do you base this on . He hired a person he called the best goalie coach in the world and then turned around and called him obsolete .
He hired everyone who was considered the best available at hte time. Right now his former 4th or 5th AGM is the #2 man in MTL.

Quote:
5) Lured the most top UFA's ? The key to a quality troll is to be subtle .
I expect an appology for this one.

I said Unsigned.
UNsigned UFA's.

Bozak, Gustavsson, Hanson, Scrivens... He has landed more than anyone else.


Quote:
6) He's made one great deal ( Gards ) and got bent over on one . Trade dealine deals almost always favor the seller so i can't give him credit on those .
Gards, Phaneuf, IN and Kaberle, Blake OUT could all be looked at as steals.

KEssel was 6th in league scoring last year. Burke might have lost but he did not get bent over. IF it had been the #3 pick instead of the #2 pick the trade would be called a draw right now.

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10-20-2012, 10:18 PM
  #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Under your logic, every single GM in nhl history has done a great job.
You will ALWAYS be able to stat mine a couple of good things a GM has done.

But it's the big picture that matters.
You can keep making lists of the smaller improvements he's done. (after four years, any gm would have done at least a few good things).
I could respond by making a list of the smaller mistakes he's done (and there's LOTS... overpaying for Kessel, ridiculous free agent signings like Komisarek and Connolly etc., keeping Ron Wilson for WAY too long, etc.)

However, that game matters little. It turns into a wash. It turns into comparisons that are devoid of overall substance. It's using spin and rhetoric in attempts to ignore the big picture.

So let's look at that BIG PICTURE.

The team Burke took over was 10th in goals for. Current team is 10th.
The team Burke took over was 30th in goals against. Current team is 29th.
The team Burke took over finished 7th last. Current team finished 5th last.
The team Burke took over had higher rated prospects according to BOTH hf and the Hockey News than the current team.
All after FOUR bottom 10 finishes.

Those facts speak for themselves.
Did this team have a PPG player when BUrke took over?

No.

Last year it had two.

Did this team have as many former 1st round picks on when Burke took over as it does now?

No.

There are more former 1st round picks on this team than since before the lockout. And they are years younger.


Blake , Stajan and Antropov are supplanted by Kessel, Lupul and Grabovski which 3 top scorers would you rather have?

Like I said I woul love to have a fresh debate on this.

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10-20-2012, 10:24 PM
  #608
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Did this team have a PPG player when BUrke took over?

No.

Last year it had two.

Did this team have as many former 1st round picks on when Burke took over as it does now?

No.

There are more former 1st round picks on this team than since before the lockout. And they are years younger.


Blake , Stajan and Antropov are supplanted by Kessel, Lupul and Grabovski which 3 top scorers would you rather have?

Like I said I woul love to have a fresh debate on this.
What is the fascination of PPG player? Just a red herring when it comes to success.

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10-20-2012, 10:26 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Really? Anyone?

1)So why have the LEafs had so few in the last 4 decades?
Does not the GM have to have the cajones to stand up to ownership and Say "NO".

An established NHL player is a big differene from a busted top 10 pick.

YOu are twisting and ignoring fact.

2)But all three are younger than the 3 they compare to in 2008.

3)Why is concentrating scoring important?
With limited number of roster spots you might as well have the most talented players in them.

I find it much easier to find 3rd line talent than 1st.



4)He isn't pressured by me, you the media, ownership or no one.

Or do you think JFJ really wanted to make either goalie trade?

5)He hired everyone who was considered the best available at hte time. Right now his former 4th or 5th AGM is the #2 man in MTL.

I expect an appology for this one.

6)I said Unsigned.
UNsigned UFA's.

Bozak, Gustavsson, Hanson, Scrivens... He has landed more than anyone else.

7)Gards, Phaneuf, IN and Kaberle, Blake OUT could all be looked at as steals.

KEssel was 6th in league scoring last year. Burke might have lost but he did not get bent over. IF it had been the #3 pick instead of the #2 pick the trade would be called a draw right now.
1)When you trade for an established player what difference does it make where he was drafted . Komi went in the 1st round and Weber went in the 2nd . I guess this means Komi is the better player

2) The 2 out of the top 3 scorers weren't younger than when Bukre took over in 08

Blake was the oldest and but Poni was 28 and Stajan was 25 . Grabo was 4th than year and he was 24

3) There's no such thing as concentrating your scoring , all it means is you lack scoring depth and it makes it easier to shut down your team when you rely on only to 2/3 forwrds to produce your offense .

4) Every GM is under pressure to win , no ones putting a gun to there head to deal there picks to accomplish this

There were plenty of goalies JFJ could have aquired without dealing Rask/1st .

5) did you take a poll from all the GM's to determine that he has all the top availble front office talent because it seems like you're just blowing smoke out of your butt on this one

6) Every UFA is unsigned so how the heck was anyone supposed to know you meant non NHL ufa's

Scrivens and Hanson weren't that highly thougth of and every year there's highly coveted college UFA's but it doesn't mean they have high end potential , it just means GM's love to aquire assets for free . Also just because the rest of the GM's don't make a huge production out of signing these guys like Burke did doesn't mean they didn't garner as much interest as Bozak

7) if he traded Kabs and the 7th everyone would be thrilled with the deal , if we made the playeoffs 3 consecutive years since the trade everyone would be happy with the deal

sadly the truth is we finished 2nd and 9th last and only a select few are happy with the out come of that trade

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10-20-2012, 10:31 PM
  #610
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Did this team have a PPG player when BUrke took over?

No.

Last year it had two.

Did this team have as many former 1st round picks on when Burke took over as it does now?

No.

There are more former 1st round picks on this team than since before the lockout. And they are years younger.


Blake , Stajan and Antropov are supplanted by Kessel, Lupul and Grabovski which 3 top scorers would you rather have?

Like I said I woul love to have a fresh debate on this.
Ok.

Simply put, you care more about "pieces" of the team than the overall team. As long as we have a couple of "pieces" that can score more goals, who cares that THE TEAM is still 10th in goals for..
Who cares that the TEAM is still 29th in goals against.
Who cares that the TEAM dropped from 7th last to 5th last.
Who cares that the TEAM has lower rated prospects according to both HF and the Hockey News.
Who cares that the TEAM has finished bottom 10 four years in a row.

You only care about the "pieces". You don't care that the forest as a whole is being slashed and burned from the outside, because there's a couple of bigger trees in the middle.

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10-20-2012, 10:34 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
What is the fascination of PPG player? Just a red herring when it comes to success.
It's embarrassing...

"The team is still 10th in g/f, 29th g/a, 5th last in rankings"
So what, we have a couple of ppg players now.
lol

"Our prospects are rated lower by both HF and the hockey news, even after finishing BOTTOM 10 four years in a row."
So what, we have more 1st round picks.
lol

I think at this point Charliolemieux is starting to realize he's being out muscled.

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10-20-2012, 10:34 PM
  #612
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Ok.

Simply put, you care more about "pieces" of the team than the overall team. As long as we have a couple of "pieces" that can score more goals, who cares that THE TEAM is still 10th in goals for..
Who cares that the TEAM is still 29th in goals against.
Who cares that the TEAM dropped from 7th last to 5th last.
Who cares that the TEAM has lower rated prospects according to both HF and the Hockey News.
Who cares that the TEAM has finished bottom 10 four years in a row.

You only care about the "pieces". You don't care that the forest as a whole is being slashed and burned from the outside, because there's a couple of bigger trees in the middle.
Great way of putting it. Analogous to Columbus fans pointing to Rick Nash and proclaiming all is right or Tampa fans pointing to Stamkos.

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10-20-2012, 10:45 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Gatorade View Post
What is the fascination of PPG player? Just a red herring when it comes to success.
Why woiuld a championship team need a PPG player?

gee what a question?

Why woul a winning team need elite scoring?

You're done give up.

Next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Ok.

Simply put, you care more about "pieces" of the team than the overall team. As long as we have a couple of "pieces" that can score more goals, who cares that THE TEAM is still 10th in goals for..
Who cares that the TEAM is still 29th in goals against.
Who cares that the TEAM dropped from 7th last to 5th last.
Who cares that the TEAM has lower rated prospects according to both HF and the Hockey News.
Who cares that the TEAM has finished bottom 10 four years in a row.

You only care about the "pieces". You don't care that the forest as a whole is being slashed and burned from the outside, because there's a couple of bigger trees in the middle.
Damn straight I care about pieces.

I want Kessel and Lupul as my top 2 scorers not Blake and Antropov.

and I say it is you who can't see the forrest for the trees.

You focus on his not doing everything he said in his speaches to the media as opposed to what he has actually done.

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10-20-2012, 10:48 PM
  #614
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
It's embarrassing...

"The team is still 10th in g/f, 29th g/a, 5th last in rankings"
So what, we have a couple of ppg players now.
lol

"Our prospects are rated lower by both HF and the hockey news, even after finishing BOTTOM 10 four years in a row."
So what, we have more 1st round picks.
lol

I think at this point Charliolemieux is starting to realize he's being out muscled.
At this point I am starting to realize my opposition could not ever hope to hold it's own in a debate based on fact, and not seriously tinged by personal prejudice.

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10-20-2012, 10:54 PM
  #615
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
If your point is that the leafs had decent prospects in 2008, then I agree with you. I would once again like to thank you for helping me prove my point.
I don't have to play your game because it's VERY obvious which team is which (although you forgot to add an 8.5b for Florida's team).

The fact is that both HF and the hockey news ranked our 2008 prospects higher than our 2012 prospects.

You are not the boss of the thread. You seem to feel that you're in control and that you're allowed to dictate how the conversation proceeds. """"No no no... ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. I'M IN CONTROL!!!"""""

Let me ask YOU a question.
Being that HF and The Hockey News make it a very MAJOR part of their jobs ranking prospects, are you a little bit concerned that BOTH of them ranked our 2008 prospects (of which leaf fans today call "empty cupboards") higher than our current prospects?

Red Herring's aside; "... but what about how they ranked Florida?"... Aren't you a little concerned that BOTH of these companies ranked our current team lower? After four bottom 10 finishes?
Are you a little concerned that it's only LEAF FANS and their home team bias that makes them believe that our current prospects are any good?
You're still not answering the question. You can choose not to answer, but then that destroys your entirely credibility in the argument and makes any point you make bring up worthless. You are purposely avoiding the question because you know where it leads.

But the bolded is progress. Because hold on a second... You were the one who just said a few posts back that our prospects in 2008 were utterly mediocre. Now you say they weren't?

You were the one that said Leaf fans had no right to think that we had good prospects in 2008, so they were obviously wrong now too. A flawed theory already, but now the fans in the past were right to think they had good prospects, so by your logic, they are right to think they have good prospects now.

Since you state our prospects rate the same now as they did before, that must mean we have good prospects now.

Since our prospects were so good before, it is reasonable for Burke to have made trades like the Kessel trade, and to think this rebuild would have gone faster.

Since none of the prospects lived up to their ratings, Burke actually had less to work with than he first thought, meaning any progress is more impressive.

So let us see how you rank the sets of prospects. I didn't forget anything, so maybe you're not so sure what teams are actually contained in the sets. Why not try your hand at ranking them, unless of course, you already know that these rankings are crap?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...ects_fall2008/

Five 8.0s (Schenn was also an 8.5 at one time). Compared to an 8.5 and two 8.0s. Toronto had 14 players 7.0 or higher. Florida has 17 players 7.0 or higher. Very comparable depth. Which means Toronto had better prospects in 2008 than Florida does today, or your rankings are a bunch of bull-crap. Which is it?

If that doesn't convince you, then let's compare these sets of prospects:

Set 1:

1. 8.0B
2. 8.0B
3. 8.0B
4. 8.0C
5. 8.0C
6. 7.0C
7. 7.0C
8. 7.0C
9. 7.0C
10. 7.0C
11. 7.0D
12. 7.0D
13. 7.0D
14. 7.0D

or Set 2:

1. 8.0B
2. 8.0C
3. 8.0C
4. 7.5B
5. 7.5C
6. 7.5C
7. 7.0B
8. 7.0C
9. 7.0C
10. 7.0C
11. 7.0D
12. 7.0D

Set 3:

1. 8.5C
2. 7.5C
3. 7.5C
4. 7.5C
5. 7.0C
6. 7.0C
7. 7.0C
8. 7.0C
9. 7.0C
10. 7.0C
11. 7.0C
12. 7.0C
13. 7.0D
14. 7.0D
15. 7.0D

Set 4:

1. 8.0C
2. 7.5C
3. 7.5C
4. 7.5C
5. 7.5D
6. 7.5D
7. 7.0B
8. 7.0D
9. 7.0D
10. 7.0D
11. 7.0D
12. 7.0D
13. 7.0D

Rank these sets for me.

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10-20-2012, 10:54 PM
  #616
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Why woiuld a championship team need a PPG player?

gee what a question?

Why woul a winning team need elite scoring?

You're done give up.

Next.


Damn straight I care about pieces.

I want Kessel and Lupul as my top 2 scorers not Blake and Antropov.

and I say it is you who can't see the forrest for the trees.

You focus on his not doing everything he said in his speaches to the media as opposed to what he has actually done.
Can you please give me an example of a GM that has done a bad job in the nhl?

You won't be able to.

In your attempt to defend Burke, you've created such a loose definition of "success" that it is flat out impossible to find fault in an nhl GM.

Any GM you try naming, I will be able to bring up "pieces" they've added to their team.
If you ignore standings, goals for, goals against, and prospect rankings, it's easy to simply stat mine some "pieces" that have been added to make a gm appear successful.

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10-20-2012, 10:59 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
You're still not answering the question. You can choose not to answer, but then that destroys your entirely credibility in the argument and makes any point you make bring up worthless. You are purposely avoiding the question because you know where it leads.

But the bolded is progress. Because hold on a second... You were the one who just said a few posts back that our prospects in 2008 were utterly mediocre. Now you say they weren't?

You were the one that said Leaf fans had no right to think that we had good prospects in 2008, so they were obviously wrong now too. A flawed theory already, but now the fans in the past were right to think they had good prospects, so by your logic, they are right to think they have good prospects now.

Since you state our prospects rate the same now as they did before, that must mean we have good prospects now.

Since our prospects were so good before, it is reasonable for Burke to have made trades like the Kessel trade, and to think this rebuild would have gone faster.

Since none of the prospects lived up to their ratings, Burke actually had less to work with than he first thought, meaning any progress is more impressive.

So let us see how you rank the sets of prospects. I didn't forget anything, so maybe you're not so sure what teams are actually contained in the sets. Why not try your hand at ranking them, unless of course, you already know that these rankings are crap?
You also won't answer any of my questions. Which means (under your logic) that it's "destroyed your entire credibility". You literally have some control issues.

Both HF and the Hockey News (whose list was created by consensus of nhl scouts) rate our 2008 prospects higher than our 2012 prospects.

Address this.

Is it your opinion that you, "whydidijoin on the internet", knows more about LEAGUE WIDE prospects than people who's entire job is assessing league wide prospects?

Nitpick about Florida all you want. But I'm done with your red herrings.
You're discussing Florida as a means to distract from the main argument.
I would love to hear why you think you know better about league wide prospects than people who get paid for assessing league wide prospects.

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10-20-2012, 11:09 PM
  #618
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Can you please give me an example of a GM that has done a bad job in the nhl?

You won't be able to.

In your attempt to defend Burke, you've created such a loose definition of "success" that it is flat out impossible to find fault in an nhl GM.

Any GM you try naming, I will be able to bring up "pieces" they've added to their team.
If you ignore standings, goals for, goals against, and prospect rankings, it's easy to simply stat mine some "pieces" that have been added to make a gm appear successful.
LMAO

Yes pieces. Pieces the the ultimate puzzle.

Apparently you would rather have Hagman and Blake pieces as Opposed to Gardiner and Kessel pieces.

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10-20-2012, 11:15 PM
  #619
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
LMAO

Yes pieces. Pieces the the ultimate puzzle.

Apparently you would rather have Hagman and Blake pieces as Opposed to Gardiner and Kessel pieces.
So no example of an nhl GM that has done a bad job?

Seriously... I would LOVE to hear an example of what you consider "bad".
Warning though...
I WILL be pointing out "pieces" that the gm in question added.
And according to your brilliant method of assessing nhl GM's... adding any number of "pieces" after four bottom 10 finishes counts as "improvement".

This ought to be good...
Honestly, I'm literally very excited to see what you write.

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10-20-2012, 11:18 PM
  #620
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
You also won't answer any of my questions. Which means (under your logic) that it's "destroyed your entire credibility". You literally have some control issues.

Both HF and the Hockey News (whose list was created by consensus of nhl scouts) rate our 2008 prospects higher than our 2012 prospects.

Address this.

Is it your opinion that you, "whydidijoin on the internet", knows more about LEAGUE WIDE prospects than people who's entire job is assessing league wide prospects?

Nitpick about Florida all you want. But I'm done with your red herrings.
You're discussing Florida as a means to distract from the main argument.
I would love to hear why you think you know better about league wide prospects than people who get paid for assessing league wide prospects.
There have been no questions of yours that I have not been willing to answer.

I have addressed exactly why the rankings state this. Because the rankings are terrible and inconsistent. All such rankings are, no matter who they fool you into thinking wrote it.

You were the one who just said a few posts back that our prospects in 2008 were utterly mediocre. Now you say they weren't?

You were the one that said Leaf fans had no right to think that we had good prospects in 2008, so they were obviously wrong now too. A flawed theory already, but now the fans in the past were right to think they had good prospects, so by your logic, they are right to think they have good prospects now.

Since you state our prospects rate the same now as they did before, that must mean we have good prospects now.

Since our prospects were so good before, it is reasonable for Burke to have made trades like the Kessel trade, and to think this rebuild would have gone faster.

Since none of the prospects lived up to their ratings, Burke actually had less to work with than he first thought, meaning any progress is more impressive.

So let us see how you rank the sets of prospects. I didn't forget anything, so maybe you're not so sure what teams are actually contained in the sets. Why not try your hand at ranking them, unless of course, you already know that these rankings are crap?

Why are you so scared to answer?

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10-20-2012, 11:35 PM
  #621
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Craig BUtton made 3 major mistakes as GM of the Flames.

What were they?

BIG SUPER HUGE Hint: He was fired within 24hrs of his last.

I am curious to know how that is relevant to the disaster that is Brian Burke in Toronto. Please explain.

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10-20-2012, 11:39 PM
  #622
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Completely understand passionate debates as we have here, but please no flaming or trolling. Just simply agree to disagree and move on if no further movement can occur.

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10-20-2012, 11:45 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So let's look at that BIG PICTURE.

The team Burke took over was 10th in goals for. Current team is 10th.
The team Burke took over was 30th in goals against. Current team is 29th.
The team Burke took over finished 7th last. Current team finished 5th last.
The team Burke took over had higher rated prospects according to BOTH hf and the Hockey News than the current team.
All after FOUR bottom 10 finishes.

Those facts speak for themselves.
The BIGGEST difference is that the crappy team he inherited was a bunch of old fart knockers with NTC laced contracts and nothing in the AHL. The team now is losing because they are stocked with prospects and are currently the youngest team in the NHL. I'll take Burkes team tyvm

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10-20-2012, 11:45 PM
  #624
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Craig Button?

In 3 seasons he added THREE 1st round picks... including a Dion Phaneuf, a future norris candidate.
He did trades to acquire FUTURE 37 GOAL SCORER Chris Drury and Stanley Cup winning assistant captain ANDREW FERRENCE!!!

Who CARES that they finished bottom 10 all 3 seasons.
Adding those PIECES is what mattered!!!!!
A team with PHANEUF, DRURY AND FERRENCE is BETTER than a team without them.
It's CLEAR AS DAY that Button improved the Flames. CLEAR AS ****ING DAY!!!!

Ha.
That was fun...

I know you're thinking that everything I just wrote is asinine... is spin, rhetoric, nonsense, and has no bearing on reality.

Well, welcome to my world. Now you know how I feel.
Time to release. He is out to lunch. After 40 plus years I have learned that MLSE are masters of sucking in the fans. He has been sucked in and probably thinks the Leafs are a great team.

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10-20-2012, 11:47 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by Whydidijoin View Post
There have been no questions of yours that I have not been willing to answer.

I have addressed exactly why the rankings state this. Because the rankings are terrible and inconsistent. All such rankings are, no matter who they fool you into thinking wrote it.

You were the one who just said a few posts back that our prospects in 2008 were utterly mediocre. Now you say they weren't?

You were the one that said Leaf fans had no right to think that we had good prospects in 2008, so they were obviously wrong now too. A flawed theory already, but now the fans in the past were right to think they had good prospects, so by your logic, they are right to think they have good prospects now.

Since you state our prospects rate the same now as they did before, that must mean we have good prospects now.

Since our prospects were so good before, it is reasonable for Burke to have made trades like the Kessel trade, and to think this rebuild would have gone faster.

Since none of the prospects lived up to their ratings, Burke actually had less to work with than he first thought, meaning any progress is more impressive.

So let us see how you rank the sets of prospects. I didn't forget anything, so maybe you're not so sure what teams are actually contained in the sets. Why not try your hand at ranking them, unless of course, you already know that these rankings are crap?

Why are you so scared to answer?
If you think you, a casual hockey fan, know more about league wide prospects than consensus formed by professional nhl scouts... well... there really is no reason for us to continue this conversation.
I don't care about Florida. Go to the Panthers forums and discuss them if you wish.

The fact remains, both HF and the Hockey News ranked 2008 leafs prospects better than the 2012 prospects.
I do not for A SECOND think you've assessed league wide prospects to the level that consensus of professional nhl scouts have.

MOD

"I know that nhl.com shows the leafs as 5th last... but I think that league rankings lists were created by biased anti Leaf members of the media. In my opinion (which matters more than professionals of any type), the leafs really finished 8th in the east, and even won a playoff round. That's my opinion, because I simply know better than the professionals that made those lists."


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