HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Extend him?

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-14-2012, 12:52 PM
  #101
TurdFerguson
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 779
vCash: 500
No.

I'm not a Leafs fan, but the Leafs need a guy who is willing to win through any means, self-imposed restrictions do not make sense. The last 3 cup winners have had players on front loaded contracts, these would be beneficial to the Leafs both in the ability to get good players at a reduced cap number, and to trade them away to poorer teams when they are in the reduced pay years.

Offer sheets are another avenue the Leafs should at least explore. I'm not saying this is purely beneficial as 'circumvention' contracts are because of the harm to relationships with GMs, but at least don't restrict yourself from it.

The Leafs need a guy that plays with the stacked deck they're given, fire Burke now.

TurdFerguson is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 12:55 PM
  #102
birddog*
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Predaleafs View Post
When Wilson was re-signed the Leafs, they were 6th in the conference and 6 points behind Philly for 4th, he had a right to show confidence, but when the team starting faltering he did his job and fired him.
They had already started their tail-spin and it was obvious Burke was using this as a tactic to get the players to buy into Wilson -- when they clearly were not. Huge fail

Quote:
How would Seguin help us right now? im not going to start with Hamilton or Knight, but really how would Seguin help right now? He would not have went out and made the Phaneuf deal or the Lupul deal. We would more than likely be in the same spot but with Seguin to look forward to. I would much rather have Kessel and everyone else than Seguin and who he would have brought in. I dont agree with moving the picks but he brought in an elite young sniper.
Seguin and Hamilton would be preferable buiding blocks to Kessel. 2 for 1 doesn't work for a rebuilding club. Trading first round picks doesn't work for a rebuilding club. At the time of the trade everyone was prepared to play it out, draft and rebuild. The trade was a head scratcher at the time. Especially since the compensation called for a 1,st, 2nd, and 3rd. Burke thought he'd be generous and bump that up.

Kessel for Seguin -- sure. Kessel for Seguin and Hamilton -- not close. You don't win when your GM loses trades with cornerstone players involved.

Quote:
Ok, maybe Reimer and Scrivens arn`t the best but who would he have been able to bring in. Lets go and trade a huge package for an aging 10 year contract in Luongo?or maybe trade the farm for John Bernier and hope he is better than Reimer? exactly, the grass is always greener to some people
Can't win without goaltending. Burke has stated he builds from the net out. His selection of goalies, faith in them, and his goaltending coach have all been huge failures. Just because Burke says "I believe in this group" or "we are prepared to go into the season with these guys" or "we have 2 number one goalies" doesn't make it true.

Who would I bring in? It's not my job. But I can tell you other GMs have solved their goaltending problems in less time.


Quote:
Umm, the Leafs had 35 fights last year, from 12 players. They arn`t a team that just gets pushed around. they arn`t the toughest team, i know but what should he have done different? Acqurie Parros,Boll,Dustin Brown,Mike Richards and play Orr,Rosehill and Brown? He has always stated he wants a top 6-bottom 6 but in the new NHL its top 9 bottom 3. How many fights do Kunitz,Dupis,Letang,Neal and Malkin have a year for the pens? or Datsyuk,Zetterberg,Franzen have for the wings?
The number of fights doesn't make you tough. Detroit doesn't get pushed around like the Leafs. Watch any game against the Bruins last year and see how intimidated the Leafs are. It's a joke and obvious to anyone that the Leafs can and have gotten run out of buildins -- even their own.


Quote:
Its the system that Wilson wanted them to play. it was outdated and left to many holes in our line-up. How many goals against where they were the D was out of position or we had Komisarek trying first passes across the ice? Burke and Wilson didnt see eye-to-eye in what team they wanted and system.
Who's fault is this? This makes Burke pretty stupid for not recognizing this and replacing Wilson sooner.

Quote:
Same, as goaltending. Stats wise, Grabo is a number 1 center as he is in the top 30 centers in the league. It is also pretty difficult to acquire a top center. We have the second best thing with decent centre depth. Atleast Burke is willing to try, Connolly was good in Buffalo, Lombardi if he could return to form was #1(i hope if we lose a season we re-sign him 1 year deal cheap. A full off-season may help him return), he brought in Bozak, who 20 other teams wanted, brought in Colbourne who Boston really liked and expected to be a number 1, Drafted a natural Centre in Kadri. you can`t say he hasnt tried, id rather have a gm willing to take risks than sit back and to save his job.
Grabo is not a number one center. He doesn't match up well against any of Crosby, Malkin, Datsyuk, Kopitar, Staal, Tavares, Thornton, Stamkos, Spezza, Toews etc.

The goal is to win the cup and Grabo will get outplayed every time matching up against those guys.

"Can't say he hasn't tried", no I can't, and I really could care less. Little Jimmy tried hard to win his game yesterday and it didn't work out, but this isn't little league and Burke gets paid 5 million per year to produce -- not try. Deliver results or bye bye. This is the big leagues.

Quote:
Again, Wilson system was horrible, he asked them to play a really bad style of PK, one where they sat back and let everything happen and you can`t play that way, not Burkes fault.
Totally Burke's fault for not firing him. Burke gets 100% of the blame..

birddog* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 12:56 PM
  #103
birddog*
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Burke was signed to a 6 year contract in 2008.

There is no need to extend him at all, he's still under contract.
Smartest thing I've read all thread.

birddog* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 12:57 PM
  #104
Sam Slick*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: St John's NL
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
So if this team is yet another disaster this year do you just make more excuses and give him a free pass?

Will there ever be a point when he has to deliver?
Free pass no, point to deliver yes. He has this year to make the Playoffs, after that, in my opinion he should be gone. I too have a shelf life for our GM. Trust me, I dont like the guy, many here have heard me call him a blow hard. His mouth may have cost us Tavares when you think about it.

But, I see the Marlies fully stalked, and even have some great young guys winning weekly awards in the CHA. Our team is young and our roster only has 2 holes in it now.

Sam Slick* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 12:59 PM
  #105
birddog*
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Slick View Post
I agree to the bolded part bird dog, but I dont think he damaged the organization. You simply cant sink a ship that is already at the bottom of the ocean.

If you go back and check all my posts and threads, I was one of the guys predicting lottery the last few years with the exception of one post. My ex wife got into my pc and wigged out. hehe

This year, I can see it coming together. We are not great yet, but we are greater than other teams in our conference. If burke fulfills his promise of obtaining a 1a center and tender. We are in.
I just don't see this happening. I will give the man credit if and when it does but until then I'll continue to doubt the job he has done.

birddog* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 01:05 PM
  #106
Sam Slick*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: St John's NL
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
I just don't see this happening. I will give the man credit if and when it does but until them I'll continue to doubt the job he has done.
We shall agree to disagree. The beer tastes the same either way.

U seem a tad grumpy today. You and I always get along. Burke seems to be your bane me thinks.

Sam Slick* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 01:07 PM
  #107
Sam Slick*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: St John's NL
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurdFerguson View Post
No.

I'm not a Leafs fan, but the Leafs need a guy who is willing to win through any means, self-imposed restrictions do not make sense. The last 3 cup winners have had players on front loaded contracts, these would be beneficial to the Leafs both in the ability to get good players at a reduced cap number, and to trade them away to poorer teams when they are in the reduced pay years.

Offer sheets are another avenue the Leafs should at least explore. I'm not saying this is purely beneficial as 'circumvention' contracts are because of the harm to relationships with GMs, but at least don't restrict yourself from it.

The Leafs need a guy that plays with the stacked deck they're given, fire Burke now.
Hey turd....I know you. What drags you over across the tracks....boredom? No worries, blue will pick up soon....if we ever get hockey. Anyway, welcome.

Sam Slick* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 01:19 PM
  #108
birddog*
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Toronto
Posts: 5,988
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Slick View Post
We shall agree to disagree. The beer tastes the same either way.

U seem a tad grumpy today. You and I always get along. Burke seems to be your bane me thinks.
I've just waited a long time to see Burke fill those gaps. He's had a considerable amount of time. I had more hope early on that he was going to make a big splash, but the longer it takes, the less likely it is in my opinion.

Sadly I think He and Wilson created the perception that Toronto is one of the worst places to play in the NHL -- with all the losing and media attention. This is worse than 4 years ago when he arrived. In this regard he has taken a step back. It was one of the few hopes Toronto fans had -- sign a Toronto boy that wants to come home -- but UFAs and even the Nash's of the world would rather play elsewhere. Even Luongo has been rumoured to not want to come here.

This team is not in worse shape than when he arrived but it still needs major pieces and Burke still needs to prove he's capable. I'll give him a trophy when he wins something but until then -- nadda.

birddog* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 01:39 PM
  #109
Sam Slick*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: St John's NL
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
I've just waited a long time to see Burke fill those gaps. He's had a considerable amount of time. I had more hope early on that he was going to make a big splash, but the longer it takes, the less likely it is in my opinion.

Sadly I think He and Wilson created the perception that Toronto is one of the worst places to play in the NHL -- with all the losing and media attention. This is worse than 4 years ago when he arrived. In this regard he has taken a step back. It was one of the few hopes Toronto fans had -- sign a Toronto boy that wants to come home -- but UFAs and even the Nash's of the world would rather play elsewhere. Even Luongo has been rumoured to not want to come here.

This team is not in worse shape than when he arrived but it still needs major pieces and Burke still needs to prove he's capable. I'll give him a trophy when he wins something but until then -- nadda.
Agreed.

I think UFA's not signing here were about 2 things. Money and Wilson. The UFA's I think we are talking about are Kovi, Richards et el. That was about Burke not wanting to give out those long contracts. I think that is a mistake and Burke needs to change certain things and thats one of them if we want top tier talent in the form of UFA's. Other teams are willing to walk on that fine "circumvention" line. Burke needs to catch up.

As for UFA's not wantiing to come, I think the main reason was Wilson. He was voted "Worse coach to play for" in the enitre NHL. That speaks volumes about obtaining talent. I had coaches I never want to play for again. Toronto is a great hockey market, great city and the best facilities in the NHL. So reason is Wilson in my opinion. He sucked.

Sam Slick* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 01:42 PM
  #110
bobermay
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Barrie/UofGuelph
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,925
vCash: 500
Simply put. I don't think there is any better GM available. Especially ones that would be able to deal with a hockey market like Toronto as well as Brian Burke has done.

You might not like Burke's personality. You might not even agree with his hockey philosophy. But you cannot deny that he's done a lot of great things in his 31/2 years here, for both the Leafs organization, and the community of Toronto.

bobermay is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 01:45 PM
  #111
crump
~ ~ (ړײ) ~ ~
 
crump's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Ontariariario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,061
vCash: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
To think that anyone thinks ANY GM would ever ask their coachs/players to lose on purpose is ludicrous.

You actually think there is anyone here that believes thats even possible?

Give your head a

"impossible to move contracts"? please enlighten me.
I responding directly to someone who said as much in this very thread. Give your own head a shake. People post that nonesense every day.

J. Blake, not to mention the finnish goalie (can't say his name without some acid reflux happening) that went with him was someone who was thought to be impossible to move, but of course not to you because your hindsight is 20/20 isn't it. It's not always about how much a player makes that defines "impossible to move".


Last edited by crump: 10-14-2012 at 01:51 PM.
crump is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 01:59 PM
  #112
Leafsman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,469
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Slick View Post
Agreed.

I think UFA's not signing here were about 2 things. Money and Wilson. The UFA's I think we are talking about are Kovi, Richards et el. That was about Burke not wanting to give out those long contracts. I think that is a mistake and Burke needs to change certain things and thats one of them if we want top tier talent in the form of UFA's. Other teams are willing to walk on that fine "circumvention" line. Burke needs to catch up.

As for UFA's not wantiing to come, I think the main reason was Wilson. He was voted "Worse coach to play for" in the enitre NHL. That speaks volumes about obtaining talent. I had coaches I never want to play for again. Toronto is a great hockey market, great city and the best facilities in the NHL. So reason is Wilson in my opinion. He sucked.
This team needs success to bring UFA's and until we see some they will keep signing elsewhere.

Toronto would be the best team to play for when they're winning and a very hard one to play for when losing. Once this team shows some signs of being capable of winning something the UFA's will consider this team a little more strongly.

Players sign in NYR and I am sure Torts is no cake walk to play for

Leafsman is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 02:01 PM
  #113
Sam Slick*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: St John's NL
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by crump View Post
I responding directly to someone who said as much in this very thread. Give your own head a shake. People post that nonesense every day.

J. Blake, not to mention the finnish goalie (can't say his name without some acid reflux happening) that went with him was someone who was thought to be impossible to move, but of course not to you because your hindsight is 20/20 isn't it. It's not always about how much a player makes that defines "impossible to move".
this

Sam Slick* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 02:17 PM
  #114
Sam Slick*
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: St John's NL
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafsman View Post
This team needs success to bring UFA's and until we see some they will keep signing elsewhere.

Toronto would be the best team to play for when they're winning and a very hard one to play for when losing. Once this team shows some signs of being capable of winning something the UFA's will consider this team a little more strongly.

Players sign in NYR and I am sure Torts is no cake walk to play for
True. Winning does have a lot to do with it.

But would you agree that certain UFA's would think...."hey, if I was there, we'd win more and I can see where I would fill a need"?

Sam Slick* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 02:24 PM
  #115
darrylsittler27
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,117
vCash: 500
We have no idea what Rogers/Bell are thinking.

Perhaps Peddie pressured Burke to make the Kessel trade but it wasn't in our best interest and made no sense.Burke has misread too many situations.Wilson,Allaire,overpaying for Kessel,building around the wrong pieces(Kessel a winger and Phaneuff),signing the wrong free agents for too much then having to overpay Grabovski after admitting $5 million was ludicrous.He has misread goaltending as badly as he did with Cloutier in Vancouver.We have had 4 years of failure with only Reilly to show while loading a divsion rival who beats us reguarly.

To top it all off,hHe may not see this team is horribly built and is still in need of a rebuild.We still badly need a number one center and have questions in goal.Extend him?I see no reason to.

darrylsittler27 is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 02:27 PM
  #116
Tuna99
Registered User
 
Tuna99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,271
vCash: 50
Burke has some weird Alpha Dog grip over a big swath of Leafs Fans - he, his philosophy, his drafting, his pro-signings, Wilson and many of the coaching staff have been overall failures - the only reason people would want to keep him is because he is a huge self-promoter and loud mouth, I love Don Cherry as a TV personality but I would never let him coach my NHL team, until Leafs faithful figure this same dynamic out with Burke they will forever be in the mediocrity he has created and support it because of Burke is defiant on TV.

Tuna99 is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 02:58 PM
  #117
ForSpareParts*
agreement
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 5,904
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
So you want to hire someone who has no GM experience?

I don't think that's a good idea in this market.



Yeah, I think you do. Jacques Martin?? ugh.

I see one name you gave there that seems a solid candidate to replace Burke's experience, and Davidson is strongly rumoured to be taking over the Jackets so you can probably scratch him off the list.

chump change.

ForSpareParts* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 03:55 PM
  #118
Liminality
Registered User
 
Liminality's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
Burke has some weird Alpha Dog grip over a big swath of Leafs Fans - he, his philosophy, his drafting, his pro-signings, Wilson and many of the coaching staff have been overall failures - the only reason people would want to keep him is because he is a huge self-promoter and loud mouth, I love Don Cherry as a TV personality but I would never let him coach my NHL team, until Leafs faithful figure this same dynamic out with Burke they will forever be in the mediocrity he has created and support it because of Burke is defiant on TV.
Yep the only reason why I'd want to extend Burke is to hear his lovely voice.

Seriously why do other teams fans think it's their duty to give us advice on what our opinions should be?

Liminality is online now  
Old
10-14-2012, 04:21 PM
  #119
Tak7
Registered User
 
Tak7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: GTA or the UK
Posts: 6,765
vCash: 500
I can't see anyone coming in and doing the job in place of Burke.

Let's have this discussion when Burke is in the lame duck scenario - if he makes the playoffs and has a good run, does that not all of a sudden validate a lot of the work that he's been doing? I think he's on a real knife edge.

What I will say is that the Leafs are in a better position now than they were before he got here. Plenty of good, plenty of bad, but better than it was before.

Tak7 is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 04:23 PM
  #120
Tuna99
Registered User
 
Tuna99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,271
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liminality View Post
Yep the only reason why I'd want to extend Burke is to hear his lovely voice.

Seriously why do other teams fans think it's their duty to give us advice on what our opinions should be?
I guess it's the old adage of why you can't look away from an accident - It's like seeing Burke driving the Leafs Bus off a cliff (his words from the playoff failure this season) and a guy on the side of the road says "Hey, you might want to turn in the other direction" and the guys on the bus saying "Hey, just let us steer this thing off the cliff and mind your own business"

Tuna99 is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 04:52 PM
  #121
TeamBester
Debunked
 
TeamBester's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,462
vCash: 500
I can't wait to see Burke extended.

6 MORE YEARS

TeamBester is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 04:55 PM
  #122
Liminality
Registered User
 
Liminality's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,295
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuna99 View Post
I guess it's the old adage of why you can't look away from an accident - It's like seeing Burke driving the Leafs Bus off a cliff (his words from the playoff failure this season) and a guy on the side of the road says "Hey, you might want to turn in the other direction" and the guys on the bus saying "Hey, just let us steer this thing off the cliff and mind your own business"
Yep 100% similar situations, great insight.

Liminality is online now  
Old
10-14-2012, 05:54 PM
  #123
Disgruntled Observer*
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,640
vCash: 500
Again...

The team Burke inherited finished 10th in goals for.
Last years team finished 10th in goals for.

The team Burke inherited finished 26th in goals against.
Last years team finished 28th in goals against. (We got WORSE in this stat).

What exactly has Burke improved? If you say he added some "star" players, why aren't there any results on the score sheet? Why don't we score more goals? Why don't we prevent more goals? Why don't we win more games?

Our current prospects are very similarly rated compared to the prospects when Burke arrived. Even after four bottom 10 finishes.

You guys really don't think JFJ (or any other GM) could have pulled this off? Finish bottom 10 four years in a row without showing any statistical improvement on offense OR defense?
Once we add in that we're talking about the highest paid nhl GM in all of world history... it gets even more embarrassing.

It's just SHOCKING that some fans still support this guy...

Disgruntled Observer* is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 06:15 PM
  #124
Kurtz
Registered User
 
Kurtz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,677
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
Again...

Our current prospects are very similarly rated compared to the prospects when Burke arrived. Even after four bottom 10 finishes.
You're seriously arguing that our current prospects are similar to the ones Burke had when he took over? This is the top 10 JFJ left us with:

1. Justin Pogge, G
2. Jiri Tlusty, C
3. Nikolai Kulemin, RW
4. Robbie Earl, LW
5. Anton Stralman, D
6. Jeremy Williams, RW
7. Dmitri Vorobiev, D
8. Dale Mitchell, RW
9. Tyler Ruegsegger, C
10. James Reimer, G

And off-course Fletch added Schenn, but overall, come on. Can't seriously compare that bunch to the likes of Reilly, Gardiner,Kadri,Colbourn,Percy, Blacker, Mckegg, Biggs, Ross, etc.

Kurtz is offline  
Old
10-14-2012, 06:21 PM
  #125
Joey24
Registered User
 
Joey24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New Zealand
Country: New Zealand
Posts: 5,482
vCash: 500
Send a message via ICQ to Joey24
May as well let him continue to build what he started. If nothing else he's put together a solid prospect group and some key pieces to a roster that only needs a few holes filled. I am sure once next summer rolls around he's going to be aggressively pursuing some key players. So yea I am all for signing Burke for another 3 years love him or hate him he has taken a no direction hockey club and given them hope for the future.

Joey24 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.