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C Aleksander Barkov - Tampere Tappara, FEL (2013 Draft) - Part II

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Old
01-16-2013, 08:05 AM
  #776
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Armia lost the puck in one goal in the offensive zone which ended up goal against, Armia took stupid offensive zone penalty on the PP when finland was trailing by 1 goal which ended up as Emil Molin shooting the puck in the goal which killed the game. If you include all the offensive turnovers Armia had an bad game. He gave the chance and ruined it by his bad plays.

Hockey is a goalscoring game but also defending the goal game. If you score 5 and your the reason of 6 goal against you have lost and win is all what matters.
You can always score yourself to win but you can't defend yourself to win. You have to score at some point. Goalscoring is the most difficult thing to do that's why there are so few goalscorers(good ones). But that is beside the point and another discussion.

If what you say about Armia is true I stand corrected.

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01-16-2013, 08:15 AM
  #777
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You can always score yourself to win but you can't defend yourself to win. You have to score at some point. Goalscoring is the most difficult thing to do that's why there are so few goalscorers(good ones). But that is beside the point and another discussion.

If what you say about Armia is true I stand corrected.
Most of team finland players in that game was bad so Armia wasn't the worst because he contributed offensively. Barkov wasn't excellent like someone stated or he didn't stand out. Barkov was killing the stupid penalties(was it 6 offensive zone penalties?) worked hard, assisted couple goals, lost couple key faceoffs but still much more positive than negative. Barkov was allright in that game. I didn't notice Lindholm at all which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Didn't do anything bad or good. Wennberg was the best draft eligible in that game. Hägg was pretty good too, better than Ristolainen. It's just 1 game so i wouldn't put so much stock on it.

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01-16-2013, 08:21 AM
  #778
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And you know this how?
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Originally Posted by thomast View Post
How was Drouin and Lindholm defensively compared to Barkov or in overall game?

Drouin was pretty suprise pick from HC and Steven Spott and little bit became behind the tree. Suprised all without any expectations was bright spot for team Canada. Supriser like that will get some people in his bandwagon pretty easily.

Lindholm was pretty unknown for NA people and in other posters before WJC. Only swedes knew something about him. He was on the radar in top 10 but people wasn't expecting much from him except for swedes. He played pretty good WJC as did whole swedish team.

Barkov came into WJC with alot of expectations. People expected him
to dominate like he wants and control the game like man among the boys. People expected him to be one of the best players on strong finnish team. People saw that Team failed so Barkov failed with the team in their eyes. The truth is that Barkov was the most hard working C on team finland. He had to kill stupid penalties which were taken by his team mates in the offensive zone, his linemates couldn't do any cycling game they lost the puck all the time which ended up as long pressure in the defensive zone where he had to work alot. After that he had no
Energy left in the shift. In FEL his linemates aren't as useless and he doesen't have to do everything like in this WJC team.

Put Barkov in team sweden with better linemates and much better cycling game and Barkov would be one of the top players in this tournament.

In my books Barkov was solid for guy of his age. Worked hard and tried his best. I expected him to be more involved offensively but with that team and linemates, workload i understand why he looked tired.

I wouldn't put much stock for the WJC's. Right now Barkov is on a hot streak in FEL and he'll be on top discussion for the draft.
This.

IMO they play just as good what they can, there is not lot of room that they could play better. They play better what almost anyone expect them to play and what i have seen (I haven't seen much Drouin thought)and heard, they play better what before WJC their team's.

Barkov played good in every area in the ice, but wasn't flashy. He was good, but tired and he wasn't play as good he could so there is lot of room to be better and he has been that again in Tappara.

Still Barkov outplayed both in point's wise against tough teams and whole tournament.

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01-16-2013, 08:35 AM
  #779
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How was Drouin and Lindholm defensively compared to Barkov or in overall game?
Defensively Barkov was the best out of the three judging from the games I watched them all play in. But I expect offensive contribution from our 2nd line center and the most offensively gifted player. Yes, he did put up those 3 assists against top nations as you already brought up, but stats don't necessarily prove anything. All those assists came from PP's where he passed the puck to the point man who shot and scored. Looks fancy on paper as he was PPG against top nations, but in reality it wasn't that big of an effort.

I still love the player and think he'll end up being drafted in the top 3. I just don't think he met expectations in the WJC.

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01-16-2013, 08:55 AM
  #780
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Defensively Barkov was the best out of the three judging from the games I watched them all play in. But I expect offensive contribution from our 2nd line center and the most offensively gifted player. Yes, he did put up those 3 assists against top nations as you already brought up, but stats don't necessarily prove anything. All those assists came from PP's where he passed the puck to the point man who shot and scored. Looks fancy on paper as he was PPG against top nations, but in reality it wasn't that big of an effort.

I still love the player and think he'll end up being drafted in the top 3. I just don't think he met expectations in the WJC.
What was Barkov's supporting cast compared to others? I think that Lehkonen blocked the certain goal of Barkov etc. But i see your points that Barkov didn't meet expectations but you have to think it as whole picture. Team Finland was an mess, linemates are switched in every game and they all are useless in cycling game and keeping the pressure in the offensive zone. Barkov is an player who doesen't hog the puck he passes simple pass instead but what you can do that his linemate loses it time after time and it end up as long pressure in the defensive zone. Barkov basically had to do all by himself.

I wouldn't say that Drouin or Lindholm was better than Barkov their expectations were set much lower and they had much better supporting cast. They exceeded their expectations by far. Drouin was expected to be spare foward and Lindholm was pretty unknown in other countries except Sweden. But i see your points and they are mostly valid.

Barkov and team Finland didn't meet his sky high expectations. Team Finland was an mess and 17 year old couldn't turn it around.

Drouin didn't even have expectations he suprised everyone.

Lindholm didn't have much expectations outside of sweden. He exceeded them by far.

Result is?

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01-16-2013, 09:00 AM
  #781
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Lindholm didn't have much expectations outside of sweden. He exceeded them by far.
not really.

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01-16-2013, 09:06 AM
  #782
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not really.
It's hard to dominate WJC's as an underager. Yakupov, Galchenyuk, Huberdeau and tons of other prospects who are touted as best young players in the world didn't show anything special.

Considering his age and the level of play Lindholm exceeded his expectations. Not sure how people in Sweden thinks because of his strong play in SEL.

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01-16-2013, 09:06 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by Jeepers Creeper View Post
Defensively Barkov was the best out of the three judging from the games I watched them all play in. But I expect offensive contribution from our 2nd line center and the most offensively gifted player. Yes, he did put up those 3 assists against top nations as you already brought up, but stats don't necessarily prove anything. All those assists came from PP's where he passed the puck to the point man who shot and scored. Looks fancy on paper as he was PPG against top nations, but in reality it wasn't that big of an effort.

I still love the player and think he'll end up being drafted in the top 3. I just don't think he met expectations in the WJC.
I get what you're saying, but scrutinizing every single point like that makes little sense. Everybody gets lucky every once in a while, and then again everyone gets unlucky at times. Barkov would've scored if Lehkonen hadn't accidentally blocked the shot from going in, but on the other hand the passes he sent to the point on PP lead to goals. That's hockey for you.

Barkov's usefulness isn't measured solely in points either, because he's a good overall player, as opposed to specialists like Armia for example, whose usefulness is usually measured by how many goals he scores. Unless he scores, he's mostly useless and sometimes even a hindrance because he tends to lose the puck which creates dangerous situations in his own defensive end. The usefulness of stats depends on the player, and in Barkov's case they are less important than in Armia's.

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01-16-2013, 09:26 AM
  #784
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The usefulness of stats depends on the player, and in Barkov's case they are less important than in Armia's.
I agree this. That is very big thing when team's draft players. Armia projection and potential is NHL 1-2 line sniper, but if he wont get his potential, he most surely wont play NHL. He will be something between FEL-KHL-Setoguchi and best poor man Kovalchuk.

Barkov potetial is 1 line elite center and lowest 3rd line defensive monster, so his projection is something like Rob Niedermayer-Ryan Kesler/Mikko Koivu or best Joe Thorton - 80-90 points player. Still Barkov will play 95% surely good career in NHL without bad injuries, Armia play good career europe or NHL, but percents are something like 50/50.

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01-16-2013, 09:27 AM
  #785
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What was Barkov's supporting cast compared to others?
Barkov got to play with Teräväinen, Armia, Lehokonen on his wing and a bunch of others on PP - all of whom are everything but a weak supporting cast.

Quote:
But i see your points that Barkov didn't meet expectations but you have to think it as whole picture.
I think you lack the comprehension of bigger picture since you keep bringing up the stats all the time.

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Team Finland was an mess, linemates are switched in every game and they all are useless in cycling game and keeping the pressure in the offensive zone.
We agree on that. It was a very badly coached team and most of the blame has to be put on the coaches and their inability to implement a good system for the players to operate on.

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Barkov is an player who doesen't hog the puck he passes simple pass instead but what you can do that his linemate loses it time after time and it end up as long pressure in the defensive zone. Barkov basically had to do all by himself.
Tough to put the blame for Barkov not performing on his linemates. Yes, his linemates lost the puck several times, but I do remember Barkov himself losing the puck and creating a turnover as well.

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I wouldn't say that Drouin or Lindholm was better than Barkov their expectations were set much lower and they had much better supporting cast.
Both Drouin and Lindholm were predicted to be picked in the top-10 (on some lists even top 5) even before the tournament. So people had high expectations for them as well. The expectations for Barkov might have been slightly higher, but not much.

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01-16-2013, 09:40 AM
  #786
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Here is Barkov's goals

http://www.leijonat.fi/sarjat/sm-lii...aukalossa.html

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01-16-2013, 09:46 AM
  #787
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Actually there is never been top10 drafted Finnish player who haven't had at least career in NHL. So if Barkov and Ristolainen goes top10, percent to be at least career in NHL is just like 90-95%.

Teemu Selänne 1341 games 663+743=1406
Aki-Petteri Berg 606 games 15+70=85 (Aki never even close to reach his potential, still more than 600 games)
Olli Jokinen 1042 games 292+391=683
Tuomo Ruutu 532 games 127+172=299
Mikko Koivu 488 games 108+253=361
Joni Pitkänen 513 games 56+217=273
Kari Lehtonen 344 games 91+%
Mikael Granlund - We will see, but looks promising.

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01-16-2013, 09:50 AM
  #788
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I get what you're saying, but scrutinizing every single point like that makes little sense. Everybody gets lucky every once in a while, and then again everyone gets unlucky at times. Barkov would've scored if Lehkonen hadn't accidentally blocked the shot from going in, but on the other hand the passes he sent to the point on PP lead to goals. That's hockey for you.

Barkov's usefulness isn't measured solely in points either, because he's a good overall player, as opposed to specialists like Armia for example, whose usefulness is usually measured by how many goals he scores. Unless he scores, he's mostly useless and sometimes even a hindrance because he tends to lose the puck which creates dangerous situations in his own defensive end. The usefulness of stats depends on the player, and in Barkov's case they are less important than in Armia's.
My intention was not to downplay his contribution on those powerplays. I was merely pointing out that those assists hold very little value in the bigger picture. IMO Barkov was a slight disappointment in the tourney, and those assists do not change my assessment on him. Armia ended up 2nd on the final scoring chart, but was a big disappointment regardless. My assessment on each player isn't based on stats, especially in this type of very short tourney where everyone can get hot at the beginning and stay hot throughout the whole of it.

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01-16-2013, 09:50 AM
  #789
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Actually there is never been top10 drafted Finnish player who haven't had at least career in NHL. So if Barkov and Ristolainen goes top10 percent to be at least career in NHL is just like 90-95%.
Excellent logic.

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01-16-2013, 09:53 AM
  #790
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Originally Posted by Jeepers Creeper View Post
Barkov got to play with Teräväinen, Armia, Lehokonen on his wing and a bunch of others on PP - all of whom are everything but a weak supporting cast.



I think you lack the comprehension of bigger picture since you keep bringing up the stats all the time.



We agree on that. It was a very badly coached team and most of the blame has to be put on the coaches and their inability to implement a good system for the players to operate on.



Tough to put the blame for Barkov not performing on his linemates. Yes, his linemates lost the puck several times, but I do remember Barkov himself losing the puck and creating a turnover as well.



Both Drouin and Lindholm were predicted to be picked in the top-10 (on some lists even top 5) even before the tournament. So people had high expectations for them as well. The expectations for Barkov might have been slightly higher, but not much.
Armia, Teräväinen, Nykopp, Lehkonen, Järveläinen all of his linemates in a short tournament. Lehkonen didn't do well. The game system didn't work and his linemates kept losing the puck. You're right that Barkov lost the puck aswell but there isn't an player who doesen't but compared to other it was minimal.

I brought up stats only because you stated that regelation round was the reason of his decent PPG which was complitely wrong i wanted to fix it for you.

Be honest. Noone expected Drouin to be on team Canada roster. When he survived the cuts from camp(suprise for most of the people) most of the people projected him as spare foward. Drouin was an supriser no question about that. People didn't expect much from Drouin.

Lindholm was pretty unknown for most of the people because swedish posters don't pump up their prospects very often. People knew that he was talented and proected as top 10 by reading scouting reports. Team sweden was all about Filip Forsberg and Karlsson.some of the people didn't expect much from team sweden because they were missing many key players.

People expected Barkov to be leader and hands down best player for strong team Finland. Barkov had very good first half of the season and he have been hyped since 15 year old at Ivan Hlinka. Barkov have been in #1 discussion since last year. Drouin and Lindholm came later.

I see big difference on their expectations.

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01-16-2013, 10:00 AM
  #791
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Excellent logic.
Actually, it's not and it is. I just find this and have never think this before which is odd. I just have always known that there is too much Finnish first rounder who has flopped. Still, it's fact that top10 drafted players has much more percent chance be career NHL:er what after top10 in first round, no matter what flag you play. Of course it's not miracle to find this, but it's good reminder. I always think, it's no matter what number you go, it's matter what you do after that, but yes, it's little bit matters and matter now more when scouting is more and more professional.

Like Aki-Berg, he suck's big time and still have more than 600 games.

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01-16-2013, 10:04 AM
  #792
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Be honest. Noone expected Drouin to be on team Canada roster. When he survived the cuts from camp(suprise for most of the people) most of the people projected him as spare foward. Drouin was an supriser no question about that. People didn't expect much from Drouin.
He was a surprise pick because Canada was stacked this year and no one expected a 17 y/o make it (other than MacKinnon). The fact that he made it I think raised the expectations.

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Lindholm was pretty unknown for most of the people because swedish posters don't pump up their prospects very often.
That's just a buch of BS. Lindholm was NOT "pretty unknown" before the tourney. He was considered as one of the top undrafted prospect and, as I said, was projected to be picked in the top 10 in next year's draft. Some even had him as a potential top 5 pick.

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01-16-2013, 10:14 AM
  #793
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He was a surprise pick because Canada was stacked this year and no one expected a 17 y/o make it (other than McKinnon). The fact that he made it I think raised the expectations.



That's just a buch of BS. Lindholm was NOT "pretty unknown" before the tourney. He was considered as one of the top undrafted prospect and, as I said, was projected to be picked in the top 10 in next year's draft. Some even had him as a potential top 5 pick.
Was Drouin or Lindholm excpected leading their team like Barkov was expected? Drouin suprised everyone by making cuts anything after that was bonus.

Lindholm was pretty unknown by most of the posters. Have many posters ever seen him playing before WJC? No. Was Lindholm as known as Barkov? People knew Lindholm mostly because of scout rankings. i haven't seen Lindholm being #1 challenger like Barkov have for 2 years i didn't see much hype around him in pre WJC. Look at MacKinnon he was #1 by most of the lists. Did many people expect much from him?

Draft rankings doesen't always tell the truth it's the projected role in the team. People projected Barkov to be handsdown #1 player of team Finland and maybe top players in
entire tournament. Drouin wasn't even projected to be on this team when he made it he was projected to be spare foward. Everything he did after the cut was bonus. Lindholm was expected to be #2 C for team sweden. MacKinnon was projected to be bottom 6 player for Team Canada. Barkov had by far the highest projections and expectations of the players we have mentioned.

How many times you saw Lindholm in pre tournament? Did you see as much hype and expectations around Barkov and Lindholm? Not even close IMO and you're claiming that Drouin had almost as much expectations than Barkov. Not even close.


Last edited by thomast: 01-16-2013 at 10:21 AM.
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01-16-2013, 10:31 AM
  #794
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If you don't think Lindholm was well-known among hockey fans before the tournament then I don't know what to tell you. I knew about him and I am sure there were many others as well. We even had/have a thread dedicated to him following his progress during the ongoing season.

I have seen him only from highlights since I have no access to SEL games.

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01-16-2013, 10:37 AM
  #795
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If you don't think Lindholm was well-known among hockey fans before the tournament then I don't know what to tell you. I knew about him and I am sure there were a bunch of others as well. We even had/have a thread dedicated to him following his progress during the ongoing season.

I have seen him only from highlights since I have no access to SEL games.
Lindholm was well known as an name but as an player he was unknown for most of the people and he was bit mysterious for most of the people because he wasn't even much hyped like Barkov or MacKinnon. I have watched his SEL games(VeikkausTV) and knew that he was talented. But you stated that Lindholm and Drouin had almost as high expectations as Barkov and it is complitely false.

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01-16-2013, 10:57 AM
  #796
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Lindholm was well known as an name but as an player he was unknown for most of the people and he was bit mysterious for most of the people because he wasn't even much hyped like Barkov or MacKinnon. I have watched his SEL games(VeikkausTV) and knew that he was talented. But you stated that Lindholm and Drouin had almost as high expectations as Barkov and it is complitely false.
I made that statement based on the ranking lists on which Lindholm was ranked high, many times right behind Barkov in top5. I don't remember how high or low Drouin was ranked, but I do recall him being considered as a top prospect.

What do expectations matter anyway? Whether or not Barkov's were set higher is irrelevant, it shouldn't affect our assessment on his performance one way or another.

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01-16-2013, 11:09 AM
  #797
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I made that statement based on the ranking lists on which Lindholm was ranked high, many times right behind Barkov in top5. I don't remember how high or low Drouin was ranked, but I do recall him being considered as a top prospect.

What do expectations matter anyway? Whether or not Barkov's were set higher is irrelevant, it shouldn't affect our assessment on his performance one way or another.
When you have very high expectations on someone and he doesen't meet them it's an failure.

When an supriser exceeds his low expectations it makes people rave about it and people go crazy.

You and many other claimed that Drouin and Lindholm were better than Barkov at this tournament. I don't buy it. Drouin and Lindholm played on a better team and Barkov was playing in the team which was an mess.

The difference is that Drouin and Lindholm exceeded their lower expectations and was succesfull. Barkov didn't meet his sky high expectations which made him as disappointment. Without any expectations Barkov had induvidually as good tournament as Drouin and Lindholm if not better. Which is solid because we didn't close as good Barkov as we usually see at FEL.

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01-16-2013, 11:43 AM
  #798
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When you have very high expectations on someone and he doesen't meet them it's an failure.

When an supriser exceeds his low expectations it makes people rave about it and people go crazy.

You and many other claimed that Drouin and Lindholm were better than Barkov at this tournament. I don't buy it. Drouin and Lindholm played on a better team and Barkov was playing in the team which was an mess.

The difference is that Drouin and Lindholm exceeded their lower expectations and was succesfull. Barkov didn't meet his sky high expectations which made him as disappointment. Without any expectations Barkov had induvidually as good tournament as Drouin and Lindholm if not better. Which is solid because we didn't close as good Barkov as we usually see at FEL.
The thing is we shouldn't compare them. We should make our assessments free from comparisons to other players. The comparisons were initially brought up when someone posted Lindholm's and Drouin's stats showing they had a lower point rate against top nations than Barkov, to which I responded that Barkov was less impressive regardless, merely trying to point out that stats don't necessarily prove anything.

As for expectations, I don't think whether they were met or not, or exceeded, has had much of a difference when it comes to rankings. Most of the rankings made after the WJC have Barkov at #3, just as before the tournament. I think scouts put much more value on the performances these players have in their respective leagues during the whole season. Not saying the WJC is completely irrelevant, but I think it's rather overhyped by the media and isn't the be-all-end-all factor in regards to the draft position. It's very entertaining hockey though, much more entertaining than the overrated WHC.

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01-16-2013, 01:30 PM
  #799
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The thing is we shouldn't compare them. We should make our assessments free from comparisons to other players. The comparisons were initially brought up when someone posted Lindholm's and Drouin's stats showing they had a lower point rate against top nations than Barkov, to which I responded that Barkov was less impressive regardless, merely trying to point out that stats don't necessarily prove anything.

As for expectations, I don't think whether they were met or not, or exceeded, has had much of a difference when it comes to rankings. Most of the rankings made after the WJC have Barkov at #3, just as before the tournament. I think scouts put much more value on the performances these players have in their respective leagues during the whole season. Not saying the WJC is completely irrelevant, but I think it's rather overhyped by the media and isn't the be-all-end-all factor in regards to the draft position. It's very entertaining hockey though, much more entertaining than the overrated WHC.
Pretty much sums it. WHC is overrated in europe especially in Finland but underrated in NA.

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01-16-2013, 02:13 PM
  #800
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I think these "sky high" expectations about Barkovs performance weren't realistic before the tournament started. Yea I know he said that target is being best player there, but he is 17 and lacks little bit of skating, it wasn't realistic to wait domination. WJC is skating competition, so no-dominating-Barkov shouldn't be surprise or disappointment. Finland played too slowly all in all, and it achieved big problems against typical hard forechecking junior teams. They played "natural" hockey only at times, I don't know why. Maybe Rindell knows?

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