HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Extend Kessel thread, and other Kessel talk.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
11-06-2012, 11:22 PM
  #626
Disgruntled Observer*
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,640
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Boston won a cup because they had arguably the goalie with the greatest season in NHL history. That was easily the #1 reason.

In the first season without Kesel Boston went from second highest GF to dead-last. They missed Kessel terribly. With him, they beat Philly and probably get to the finals.

Put Kessel on that Boston team with the greatest statistics for a goalie ever, and they still win the cup and Kessel finishes +25-+30 on the team and no one whines about his defense.
So the leafs trade for Kessel and finish 2nd last and 9th last without their first round picks.
Then leaf fans criticize Boston for only winning one cup since the Kessel trade. While drafting 2nd and 9th overall with our picks...
they only won ONE cup. We finished 2nd last and 9th last.

I have absolutely no patience for this anymore. The things people write here literally make me lose my mind.
After reading that nonsense, I had to turn my computer off and go for a walk to clear my mind. I'm really starting to lose faith. Not just for humanity in general, but also for myself. I feel that reading things like that is damaging my soul.

Disgruntled Observer* is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 11:25 PM
  #627
Dojji*
Fight the Hate
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 16,821
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post

Do you think he comes back?
Just peeking in again since there was a question about a Bruin.

What Thomas did doesn't really leave much chance of a return, at least not to Boston. And I don't think he returns to play out his contract to whatever cap floor team Chiarelli can ship him to this year.

Realistically, I think the combination of the pressure Thomas was under to repeat his performance from last year, combined with constantly having to fight to keep his job against Tuukka's challenge, combined with some bad blood with the Boston media relating to his politics, it was time for Timmy to move on.

Love what he did for us though, and I always root for a man who can prove that you can still prove the scouts wrong. I can think of a number of American teams that would benefit if they decided to bring him in, just for the reputation he brings of being tough, never-say-quit, prove-em-all-wrong Detroit boy in a Canadian/European sport.

If they're picking which players in the current NHL you could make a movie out of, Timmy Thomas has to be somewhere near the top of that list.

Dojji* is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 11:27 PM
  #628
Disgruntled Observer*
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,640
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
I love how boston not signing kessel was some secret plan and calculated move, not a trade that they hated that worked out much better than expected.

Watch the youtube video of when Chiarelli announced the trade. He was apologizing to fans, he looks like burke shot his dog in front of his children.

If he really didnt want kessel, he easily could have said "We felt we had the depth to make up for the offense and expect that we will get 2 high picks in the future."

He doesnt. He keeps going about how "this trade was about a player who didnt want to be here and the threat of an offer sheet". Chiarelli repeatedly said before during and after that he wanted to keep kessel. He couldnt. Chiarelli got painted into a corner and got a lot of luck along the way to get out of it. Good for him. Everyone forgets that one post in florida and a sane gm in winipeg could have left boston with Gudbrandson and Schiefle.....

As far as phil, I honestly have my doubts he will be resigned here. He is by far the best offensive talent and the highest scorer we have had since a prime sundin.
He has the 8th most goals in the NHL since his breakout season, top 6 in points (which has only happened about 3 times i think since 92).

He still gets ripped and beat on by media and fans for some magical scenario that he cannot beat. The guy has been a ppg player over the past 100 games, has been a 30 goal player with a 2nd line tweener and an Ahl player, and has developed a much better 2 way game, but fans cant see it.

Part of me hopes he leaves at the earliest opportunity. Then fans will whine about how kessel screwed toronto... Then they will spin the story, just like how the trade went down, I cant wait for
"Kessel turns his back on his loyal fans"
But he will somehow be the cornerstone franchise player the leafs needed.
So you're saying Kessel wanted out.
The team that drafted him and developed him wasn't good enough for him.
What exactly is that going to say about the Leafs?

So let's look this over...
Kessel is quiet and shy (which doesn't mesh well in Toronto).
His team has finished 2nd, 9th, and 5th last since he arrived.
He's already bailed on a team in the past.

What on earth makes people believe that we can resign Kessel even if we tried?

Disgruntled Observer* is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 11:30 PM
  #629
beauchamp
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Laval, Qc
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,637
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Before the end of the season the first year KEssel was here, Hagman, Blake, Stajan, Poni and Stempniak were all shipped out. Losing their scoring for part of the year.

Couple that with Grabo's worst year by a mile.

And there are the missing 36 goals.
Believe me, I hate to zeke you, but the Leafs were on a pace for 218 goals before these end of January trades.

If you only keep these games where Kessel was in the line-up before the big trades (games 13 to 56), they were on a pace for 223 goals.

Not a big difference from 214.

EDIT: I'll have to correct these numbers because I once again forgot that the NHL standings artificially assign one goal for every SO win.

So the Leafs actually scored 210 goals that year, not 214.

That 219 number should be 216 and that 223 number should be 219...


Last edited by beauchamp: 11-06-2012 at 11:44 PM. Reason: Adding the EDIT
beauchamp is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 11:36 PM
  #630
Dojji*
Fight the Hate
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 16,821
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So the leafs trade for Kessel and finish 2nd last and 9th last without their first round picks.
Then leaf fans criticize Boston for only winning one cup since the Kessel trade. While drafting 2nd and 9th overall with our picks...
they only won ONE cup. We finished 2nd last and 9th last.

I have absolutely no patience for this anymore. The things people write here literally make me lose my mind.
After reading that nonsense, I had to turn my computer off and go for a walk to clear my mind. I'm really starting to lose faith. Not just for humanity in general, but also for myself. I feel that reading things like that is damaging my soul.
So let me get this straight. You're blaming Kessel for the bad finishes?

How does that make sense? No one player is going to take a bad team into the playoffs. If the rest of the team is bad, it doesn't matter that you have a star like Kessel to lead the team. The team is still bad.

Throughout Kessel's tenure, the Leafs have had no particular talent at defense, either among their forwards or their defensemen. The fact that Kessel also does not play defense neither helps nor hurts the overall, utter lack of defensive skill or talent on the Leafs.

Throughout Kessel's tenure, the Leafs have been weak in center. Kessel is a wing, he has no impact whatsoever on what talent or skill the Leafs have at center.

Throughout Kessel's tenure, the Leafs have been soft in goal. Not being a goaltender, Kessel's presence has no impact whatsoever on the goaltending situation.

None of this is Kessel's fault. Blaming Kessel for any of this demonstrates an almost comical detachment from reality.

If you want to blame anyone for the complete nonsequitur you have constructed by trying to blame Kessel for the rest of the team sucking altogther and all at once, you need to blame Burke for spending so much of his resources on a wing, rather than a more critical position such as center, defenseman or goaltender.

The proper way to use a player like Phil Kessel is to flesh out the rest of your roster with supporting cast players, including a couple solid centers and the kind of defensive forward and defensive defenseman I see nowhere on the Leafs. A player like Kessel is built for the transition game, the outlet pass, the counterattack, the shorthanded bid on the PK. That means he plays best on a team that focuses on gaining and maintaining possession of the puck, and solid team D is the lion's share of the possession game.

You can use a Kessel most easily from behind the bulwark of an otherwise solid team based defense, in other words. Until you take 5 man defense seriously, you aren't going anywhere Kessel or no Kessel. Once you have it, a player like Kessel becomes exponentially useful.

Dojji* is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 11:37 PM
  #631
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
there is no spin they were a negative more times then they were a positive in the month of February period. meaning they negatively affected more games then they positively affected 5on5. the only reason they were a positive for the month is because of those 2 games.

it's not a surprise that we won the first 3 games in february when they were a +11 and then lost all but 1 of the next 11 games when they were -10...
For the first 3 games of February, we scored 12 goals (4 G/G) and allowed only 3 goals (1 GA/G) with two back to back shutout performances.
PlayerGPGAPPPG+/-
Kessel33362.00+7
Bozak32241.33+4
Lupul31231.00+4
       
MacArthur32241.33+3
Grabovski30441.33+3
Kulemin30110.33+1
       
Lombardi30110.33+1
Connolly30110.33+1
Crabb30000.000

For the last 11 games of February, we scored 24 goals (2.18 G/G), and allowed 44 goals (4 GA/G).
PlayerGPGAPPPG+/-
Kessel1138111.00-7
Lupul1147100.91-3
Bozak114260.54-6
       
MacArthur112240.36-5
Kulemin112240.36-1
Grabovski110330.27-2
       
Connolly113030.27-4
Lombardi101120.20-8
Crabb80220.25-5
Frattin30000.00-1

Not only did the secondary offense completely dry up (the fact that the Connolly produced as much as Grabo did is laughable), but the drastic increase in GA coincides with Reimer's glorous return. The Kessel's line's +/- isn't all that much different from the rest of the team's.

Your turn, let's hear your latest spin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
that last blurb is a joke haha.
The joke was their offensive production after losing a player who was PPG in the playoffs:
  • 2008-09: 3.09 G/G with Kessel (4th among playoff teams), 2.00 GA/G (1st among playoff teams)
  • 2009-10: 2.77 G/G in 2010 (9th among playoff teams), 2.85 GA/G (7th among playoff teams)
  • 2010-11: 3.24 G/G (5th among playoff teams), 2.12 GA/G (1st among playoff teams)
  • 2011-12: 2.14 G/G (10th among playoff teams), 2.29 GA/G (7th among playoff teams)

One could argue that the '09-'10 playoff was more the result of the lack of defense (ironically, without Kessel), but last season's early exit was directly the result of the lack of offense against a very average Capitals' defense. Draw whatever conclusions you like, though.

4evaBlue is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 11:39 PM
  #632
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So the leafs trade for Kessel and finish 2nd last and 9th last without their first round picks.
Then leaf fans criticize Boston for only winning one cup since the Kessel trade. While drafting 2nd and 9th overall with our picks...
they only won ONE cup. We finished 2nd last and 9th last.
Yes. We all know this happened. IT sucks. But why are you going to hate on a guy who had nothing to do with it, but is still one of the unique talents of the NHL?

Kessel didn't make the trade man. Come on don't hate him for what he didn't do.

YOU seriously need to let this go. I am worried about you. Seriously.

Let go of the hate and embrace your team's 25yr old 82pt scorer who did it with Bozak as his center, and made Lupul have a carreer year.


Quote:
I have absolutely no patience for this anymore. The things people write here literally make me lose my mind.
After reading that nonsense, I had to turn my computer off and go for a walk to clear my mind. I'm really starting to lose faith. Not just for humanity in general, but also for myself. I feel that reading things like that is damaging my soul.
That kind of confirmed what I was talkng about above.

I don't know what to say. It shouldn't affect you this much.

Let go of the anger.

Best of luck.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
11-06-2012, 11:54 PM
  #633
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Yes. We all know this happened. IT sucks. But why are you going to hate on a guy who had nothing to do with it, but is still one of the unique talents of the NHL?

Kessel didn't make the trade man. Come on don't hate him for what he didn't do.

YOU seriously need to let this go. I am worried about you. Seriously.

Let go of the hate and embrace your team's 25yr old 82pt scorer who did it with Bozak as his center, and made Lupul have a carreer year.
Agreed. A lot of this drivel is pretty mental. Hate Burke if you're the type of person who needs to always blame someone for something, but not Kessel. Other than accepting Chia's insulting lowball offer, he had no choice in the matter.

4evaBlue is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 12:33 AM
  #634
-DeMo-
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Huntsville Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,273
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to -DeMo-
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
For the first 3 games of February, we scored 12 goals (4 G/G) and allowed only 3 goals (1 GA/G) with two back to back shutout performances.
PlayerGPGAPPPG+/-
Kessel33362.00+7
Bozak32241.33+4
Lupul31231.00+4
       
MacArthur32241.33+3
Grabovski30441.33+3
Kulemin30110.33+1
       
Lombardi30110.33+1
Connolly30110.33+1
Crabb30000.000

For the last 11 games of February, we scored 24 goals (2.18 G/G), and allowed 44 goals (4 GA/G).
PlayerGPGAPPPG+/-
Kessel1138111.00-7
Lupul1147100.91-3
Bozak114260.54-6
       
MacArthur112240.36-5
Kulemin112240.36-1
Grabovski110330.27-2
       
Connolly113030.27-4
Lombardi101120.20-8
Crabb80220.25-5
Frattin30000.00-1

Not only did the secondary offense completely dry up (the fact that the Connolly produced as much as Grabo did is laughable), but the drastic increase in GA coincides with Reimer's glorous return. The Kessel's line's +/- isn't all that much different from the rest of the team's.

Your turn, let's hear your latest spin.



The joke was their offensive production after losing a player who was PPG in the playoffs:
  • 2008-09: 3.09 G/G with Kessel (4th among playoff teams), 2.00 GA/G (1st among playoff teams)
  • 2009-10: 2.77 G/G in 2010 (9th among playoff teams), 2.85 GA/G (7th among playoff teams)
  • 2010-11: 3.24 G/G (5th among playoff teams), 2.12 GA/G (1st among playoff teams)
  • 2011-12: 2.14 G/G (10th among playoff teams), 2.29 GA/G (7th among playoff teams)

One could argue that the '09-'10 playoff was more the result of the lack of defense (ironically, without Kessel), but last season's early exit was directly the result of the lack of offense against a very average Capitals' defense. Draw whatever conclusions you like, though.
yea I see they lost there number 1 center for half the season when Savard was blind sided by Cooke. and was also out for a month in oct/nov. probably had alot more to do with the drop in offense then kessel, since he was clearly there offensive leader. others like Ryder and Lucic having horible season's also doesn't help.

as far as your first part there's no need to spin, your numbers clearly show Kessel for example was on the ice for the most goals against 5on5 in that 11 game period then any forward on the team. maybe if he was a positive say 2-3, which over an 11 game stretch is still not in the elite level, that would have been 9-10 goals ethier not scored by our opponent or scored for us. that many goals makes a big difference. we probably win 3-5 more games. and like I said if they show a good size positive like say 5-8 each thats like 12-15 goals better which almost makes up the difference.

-DeMo- is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 12:44 AM
  #635
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Just peeking in again since there was a question about a Bruin.

What Thomas did doesn't really leave much chance of a return, at least not to Boston. And I don't think he returns to play out his contract to whatever cap floor team Chiarelli can ship him to this year.

Realistically, I think the combination of the pressure Thomas was under to repeat his performance from last year, combined with constantly having to fight to keep his job against Tuukka's challenge, combined with some bad blood with the Boston media relating to his politics, it was time for Timmy to move on.

Love what he did for us though, and I always root for a man who can prove that you can still prove the scouts wrong. I can think of a number of American teams that would benefit if they decided to bring him in, just for the reputation he brings of being tough, never-say-quit, prove-em-all-wrong Detroit boy in a Canadian/European sport.

If they're picking which players in the current NHL you could make a movie out of, Timmy Thomas has to be somewhere near the top of that list.


He is a great story.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 12:56 AM
  #636
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Agreed. A lot of this drivel is pretty mental. Hate Burke if you're the type of person who needs to always blame someone for something, but not Kessel. Other than accepting Chia's insulting lowball offer, he had no choice in the matter.
Heck I don't even blame Chiarelli.

He offered 4M or there abouts.

Things just didn't work out.

After playing with Savard everyone said Kessel was a one dimensional sniper.

A Speedy Goal scorer and nothing more.

But in the year he got a decent linemate in Toronto he has more assists than goals, and his linemate has a carreer year.

He is the type of talent that not only adapts but can make others better. He sees the ice like few others.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 01:29 AM
  #637
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
yea I see they lost there number 1 center for half the season when Savard was blind sided by Cooke. and was also out for a month in oct/nov. probably had alot more to do with the drop in offense then kessel, since he was clearly there offensive leader. others like Ryder and Lucic having horible season's also doesn't help.
You're right. Losing a PPG playoff player had absolutely no impact on their lack of offense in 2 of their 3 most recent playoff performances. You know, the same player who managed a PPG season on a crappy team last year? What was I thinking. In fact, Kessel is so bad, he probably would have found a way to score on Thomas numerous times (Dan Boyle-style), and would have cost their chances at winning the cup two seasons ago.


Quote:
Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
as far as your first part there's no need to spin, your numbers clearly show Kessel for example was on the ice for the most goals against 5on5 in that 11 game period then any forward on the team. maybe if he was a positive say 2-3, which over an 11 game stretch is still not in the elite level, that would have been 9-10 goals ethier not scored by our opponent or scored for us. that many goals makes a big difference. we probably win 3-5 more games. and like I said if they show a good size positive like say 5-8 each thats like 12-15 goals better which almost makes up the difference.
Chances are, when you decide to conveniently examine a 3 game stretch, where 2 games were won by a shutout, there won't be (m)any minuses on your roster.

Yes, had the Kessel been a +2 during the last 11 game stretch, it would have been 9 less goals scored against us. Had Lombardi been a +1 during the same stretch, it would have been another 9 less goals scored against us. And had MacArthur been a +4 on the supposedly defensively responsible line, it would have been another 9 goals less scored against us. In that case, we would have only allowed 13 goals in 11 games, which surely would have resulted in more wins with a 1.18 GAA. If we could have kept that up for the whole season, and in the playoffs, we would be celebrating a Cup in TO now.

Not sure why you expect Kessel of all people to be an even +/- when the rest of the team is mired in minuses during the same stretch. He's been steadily improving his two-way game, but his defensive game was not the reason he was acquired. I'm sure if he pulled the plug on his offense like Grabo did, he could have managed a better +/- to please you.


Last edited by 4evaBlue: 11-07-2012 at 01:45 AM.
4evaBlue is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 01:31 AM
  #638
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Heck I don't even blame Chiarelli.

He offered 4M or there abouts.

Things just didn't work out.

After playing with Savard everyone said Kessel was a one dimensional sniper.

A Speedy Goal scorer and nothing more.

But in the year he got a decent linemate in Toronto he has more assists than goals, and his linemate has a carreer year.

He is the type of talent that not only adapts but can make others better. He sees the ice like few others.
No worries, they'll change their tune from "Kessel can't score without Savard" to "Kessel can't score without Lupul" soon, and use his games beside Bozak and Crabb to support their argument.

4evaBlue is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 01:40 AM
  #639
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beauchamp View Post
Believe me, I hate to zeke you, but the Leafs were on a pace for 218 goals before these end of January trades.

If you only keep these games where Kessel was in the line-up before the big trades (games 13 to 56), they were on a pace for 223 goals.

Not a big difference from 214.

EDIT: I'll have to correct these numbers because I once again forgot that the NHL standings artificially assign one goal for every SO win.

So the Leafs actually scored 210 goals that year, not 214.

That 219 number should be 216 and that 223 number should be 219...
The season before those players were auditioning for a spot on the team.

The year Kessel got brought in they had all been told they weren't good enough. IF Antro went the year before, no one was staying. Ergo lower numbers.

I am saying they were a bunch of ****** players that were playing ******.
Blake the 08-09 leading scorer was 10g and 20pts of the pace.

Thank you for just now, once and for all, helping me prove Burke had garbage when he took over.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 01:44 AM
  #640
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
No worries, they'll change their tune from "Kessel can't score without Savard" to "Kessel can't score without Lupul" soon, and use his games beside Bozak and Crabb to support their argument.
Bozak just doesn't have the "it" factor offensively. If he did Kessel would have turned him into a 30g scorer.

I love Lupul with Kessel. To think of them with a Toews between them is just disgusting.

How do we get Huberdeau?

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 01:50 AM
  #641
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
So let me get this straight. You're blaming Kessel for the bad finishes?

How does that make sense? No one player is going to take a bad team into the playoffs. If the rest of the team is bad, it doesn't matter that you have a star like Kessel to lead the team. The team is still bad.

Throughout Kessel's tenure, the Leafs have had no particular talent at defense, either among their forwards or their defensemen. The fact that Kessel also does not play defense neither helps nor hurts the overall, utter lack of defensive skill or talent on the Leafs.

Throughout Kessel's tenure, the Leafs have been weak in center. Kessel is a wing, he has no impact whatsoever on what talent or skill the Leafs have at center.

Throughout Kessel's tenure, the Leafs have been soft in goal. Not being a goaltender, Kessel's presence has no impact whatsoever on the goaltending situation.

None of this is Kessel's fault. Blaming Kessel for any of this demonstrates an almost comical detachment from reality.

If you want to blame anyone for the complete nonsequitur you have constructed by trying to blame Kessel for the rest of the team sucking altogther and all at once, you need to blame Burke for spending so much of his resources on a wing, rather than a more critical position such as center, defenseman or goaltender.

The proper way to use a player like Phil Kessel is to flesh out the rest of your roster with supporting cast players, including a couple solid centers and the kind of defensive forward and defensive defenseman I see nowhere on the Leafs. A player like Kessel is built for the transition game, the outlet pass, the counterattack, the shorthanded bid on the PK. That means he plays best on a team that focuses on gaining and maintaining possession of the puck, and solid team D is the lion's share of the possession game.

You can use a Kessel most easily from behind the bulwark of an otherwise solid team based defense, in other words. Until you take 5 man defense seriously, you aren't going anywhere Kessel or no Kessel. Once you have it, a player like Kessel becomes exponentially useful.
Awesome post.

I love ya.

Don't worry he blames Burke plenty.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 01:56 AM
  #642
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Bozak just doesn't have the "it" factor offensively. If he did Kessel would have turned him into a 30g scorer.

I love Lupul with Kessel. To think of them with a Toews between them is just disgusting.

How do we get Huberdeau?
I believe Bozak has more offensive "it" factor offensively than he's shown when he has to try to be the defensive anchor on his line. He gets crapped on way too often for not having the skillset of a franchise center (which noone claimed him to be). Just like Kessel having no influence on what we gave up to acquire him, Bozak can't really do anything about our sucky center depth.

4evaBlue is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 02:10 AM
  #643
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,564
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
I believe Bozak has more offensive "it" factor offensively than he's shown when he has to try to be the defensive anchor on his line. He gets crapped on way too often for not having the skillset of a franchise center (which noone claimed him to be). Just like Kessel having no influence on what we gave up to acquire him, Bozak can't really do anything about our sucky center depth.
Bozak has been decent enough, but even Morrison got decent numbers between Naslund and Bertuzzi.

Bozak should have more than 50pts playing between 2 PPG players.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 02:41 AM
  #644
4evaBlue
Registered User
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,358
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Bozak has been decent enough, but even Morrison got decent numbers between Naslund and Bertuzzi.

Bozak should have more than 50pts playing between 2 PPG players.
Bozak has
  • battled through a wrist injury to start the season, which not only affected his FO%, but his offensive production as well.
  • missed 2 games due to foot injury after blocking a Chara slapshot at the end of October.
  • the Connolly-Kessel experiment saw Bozak demoted to the 3rd line for random stretches to start the season. Remember Connolly's infamous @$$pass to Kessel?
  • missed 7 games with a shoulder injury at the beginning of January. Coincidentally that was the stretch when Kessel's and Lupul's production dropped a bit.
While he only missed 9 games total (having played for those games, he no doubt would have got at least 3 points), there's absolutely no way he was at 100% to start the season when the Kessel and Lupul duo were at their hottest.

He is no #1C by any stretch, but he is better than most people give him credit for.

4evaBlue is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 08:43 AM
  #645
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 55,612
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Bozak has
  • battled through a wrist injury to start the season, which not only affected his FO%, but his offensive production as well.
  • missed 2 games due to foot injury after blocking a Chara slapshot at the end of October.
  • the Connolly-Kessel experiment saw Bozak demoted to the 3rd line for random stretches to start the season. Remember Connolly's infamous @$$pass to Kessel?
  • missed 7 games with a shoulder injury at the beginning of January. Coincidentally that was the stretch when Kessel's and Lupul's production dropped a bit.
While he only missed 9 games total (having played for those games, he no doubt would have got at least 3 points), there's absolutely no way he was at 100% to start the season when the Kessel and Lupul duo were at their hottest.

He is no #1C by any stretch, but he is better than most people give him credit for.
I'm okay with Bozak in the top 6 until they trade for a 1st. line center.

I checked the cupboards, and I had to move a lot of stuff around because they're so full of canned ham and KD, but there isn't a steak to be found. It's a trade or perhaps next year's draft cuz Burke ain't found a 1st. line center yet.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA3LN_8hjM8.

Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
ULF_55 is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 09:41 AM
  #646
diceman934
Registered User
 
diceman934's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NHL player factory
Posts: 5,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Bozak has
  • battled through a wrist injury to start the season, which not only affected his FO%, but his offensive production as well.
  • missed 2 games due to foot injury after blocking a Chara slapshot at the end of October.
  • the Connolly-Kessel experiment saw Bozak demoted to the 3rd line for random stretches to start the season. Remember Connolly's infamous @$$pass to Kessel?
  • missed 7 games with a shoulder injury at the beginning of January. Coincidentally that was the stretch when Kessel's and Lupul's production dropped a bit.
While he only missed 9 games total (having played for those games, he no doubt would have got at least 3 points), there's absolutely no way he was at 100% to start the season when the Kessel and Lupul duo were at their hottest.

He is no #1C by any stretch, but he is better than most people give him credit for.
I agree.....to me he is the most underrated player on the Leafs....not a number 1 center but a very nice player who can play effectively in many roles.

diceman934 is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 09:41 AM
  #647
Dojji*
Fight the Hate
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Country: United States
Posts: 16,821
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I'm okay with Bozak in the top 6 until they trade for a 1st. line center.

I checked the cupboards, and I had to move a lot of stuff around because they're so full of canned ham and KD, but there isn't a steak to be found. It's a trade or perhaps next year's draft cuz Burke ain't found a 1st. line center yet.
You make it sound so easy to find one of those.

I think there may be 12 legit first line centers in the entire league at the moment. Leading to a bit of a math problem for those who try to insist their team should always have one.

Heck, the Bruins arguably won a Cup with "not a first line center" centering their first line. Krejci can function on the first line but is definitely in that gray area, not nearly a premium player by most people's definitions.

Personally in Burke's shoes I discard any concern about offensive play until the defense looks better. If my team plays well in the possession game, that will give what offensive players I have better chances to score. That's how the Bruins did it -- they built a solid team defense around Chara and Bergeron and that allowed their collection of pretty solid but not particularly special offensive players to combine to be among the league's top offenses.

I suspect the porous nature of Leaf team D explains those lost goals you guys were wrangling about up thread by the way. Bad defense limits chances in transition, and limits possession time in the offensive zone, both of which cut down on scoring chances.

Dojji* is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 10:02 AM
  #648
Alflives
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,536
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I'm okay with Bozak in the top 6 until they trade for a 1st. line center.

.
How about the Leafs acquire a goalie first? Then, as the players confidence rebuilds, we shall see players perform better.

With the young d coming up, continuing with poor goaltending is of concern. Will these young d follow the course of Luke Schenn?

The Leafs need a goalie first!

Alflives is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 10:28 AM
  #649
Krazy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,841
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disgruntled Observer View Post
So you're saying Kessel wanted out.
The team that drafted him and developed him wasn't good enough for him.
What exactly is that going to say about the Leafs?

So let's look this over...
Kessel is quiet and shy (which doesn't mesh well in Toronto).
His team has finished 2nd, 9th, and 5th last since he arrived.
He's already bailed on a team in the past.

What on earth makes people believe that we can resign Kessel even if we tried?
He picked toronto. He wanted to play for the leafs and especially burke.

Im not saying he wanted out..... Chiarelli is saying he wanted out. Just because a player wants off one team does not mean he will automatically want of toronto. Wheeler didnt want out of pheonix,

You consistently purposely miss the point of all conversations instead of finally saying

I am wrong.....

The point you are making is: Chiarelli didnt want to spend on a one dimensional scorer and wanted kessel off the team. Chiarelli pumped up his tires and made these contract officers and threats to match in some secret conspiracy to goad burke into trading him for the package of firsts he new would be that high.

You are wrong.

The point I am making is that Chiarelli himself said that he wanted kessel, that kessel didnt want to be here, and it is on video for all to see. He looks like burke stole his candy. On interview. Peter Chiarelli APOLOGIZED TO FANS ON AIR FOR MAKING THIS TRADE. Why would a person who new it all along and thought it was a benefit to the team APOLOGIZE for this trade????

Remember I am not providing opinion I am stating fact

It worked out better for Chiarelli than expected but to do the "oh I knew it all along" is just a massive lie.

As for part b. If you get a star player (easy top 10 scorer in the game) at this age and you have already made the trade, you make him as comfortable as you can. Whining about a trade that happened 3 years ago and making him uncomfortable is going to make him want to leave....

There is a part of me that really wants this to happen.... Of course the media and fans will never admit that they would be the reason he goes....

Krazy is offline  
Old
11-07-2012, 10:37 AM
  #650
Liminality
Registered User
 
Liminality's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,281
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
You make it sound so easy to find one of those.

I think there may be 12 legit first line centers in the entire league at the moment. Leading to a bit of a math problem for those who try to insist their team should always have one.

Heck, the Bruins arguably won a Cup with "not a first line center" centering their first line. Krejci can function on the first line but is definitely in that gray area, not nearly a premium player by most people's definitions.

Personally in Burke's shoes I discard any concern about offensive play until the defense looks better. If my team plays well in the possession game, that will give what offensive players I have better chances to score. That's how the Bruins did it -- they built a solid team defense around Chara and Bergeron and that allowed their collection of pretty solid but not particularly special offensive players to combine to be among the league's top offenses.

I suspect the porous nature of Leaf team D explains those lost goals you guys were wrangling about up thread by the way. Bad defense limits chances in transition, and limits possession time in the offensive zone, both of which cut down on scoring chances.
I like you, can you stay here?


Kessel should be extended, he's a premier right winger and his value is pretty at the moment. If Burke see's Kessel as a good trading asset in the future, I'm fine with that. I just hope the Leafs have a good enough offence in that time that can warrant to lose a player like Kessel.

Liminality is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:16 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.